Sikari-Sakari
Member
Did a quick search but couldn't find any answers so what is the difference in "basic" documentary setting between 720P and 720PN?
What's the difference: 720P vs. 720PN
- Thread starter Sikari-Sakari
- Start date
Camcorders such as the Panasonic AG-HVX200 allow you to record 720p footage onto
P2 cards without duplicating frames. Because the footage is recorded at the intended
frame rate, this method is called native frame rate recording and is often indicated by the letter N. For example, 720p60 camcorders can record 720pN30 and 720pN24 formats.
720p50 camcorders can record the 720pN25 format.
Check out this document for more info...it helped me!
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/FCP6_HD_and_Broadcast_Formats.pdf
P2 cards without duplicating frames. Because the footage is recorded at the intended
frame rate, this method is called native frame rate recording and is often indicated by the letter N. For example, 720p60 camcorders can record 720pN30 and 720pN24 formats.
720p50 camcorders can record the 720pN25 format.
Check out this document for more info...it helped me!
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/FCP6_HD_and_Broadcast_Formats.pdf
alexberman
Active member
If your NLE supports it you definitely want to shoot pN because it will take up far less space on the p2 card.
Here's a quick primer on pulldown and might help:
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm
Sikari-Sakari
Member
I'm running FCP6 and I'm living in PAL land. Seems to me that pN is the way to go though I'm still a little confused.
Last edited:
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Sikari,
The very simple difference between "p" and "pN" is this:
They key here is the difference between 'shooting' and 'recording' framerates.
The DVCPRO-HD/720p standard signal is for a full 50 fps (in PAL areas).
So normally when you are shooting 25p and recording 50p, each frame is recorded twice, so that in the end, a full 50 frames/sec are recorded. This is a standard DVCPRO-HD signal that can be transferred in real time, for example to DVCPRO-HD tape.
However, when you are shooting 25p and recording 25pN, each frame is only actually recoded once to the P2 card. The result is a signal that's not "full rate" DVCPRO-HD, and can't be moved as a real-time signal, for example to DVCPRO-HD tape (which requires the full 50frames each sec). But the P2 cards can be used to hold these 25frames/sec just fine. .. but they only take half the space to do so, which with the limited record times of P2 is a great feature.
In either instance, you will need an editor that can understand the 25p format you are shooting to.
So, in short:
720/25p = shoots at 25p, records each frame twice for a final recording of 50fps -> a data-rate of 100mbps, or about 1 minute/GB of memory.
720/25pN = shoots at 25p, only records each frame once for a final recording of 25fps -> a data-rate of only 50mbps, or about 2 minutes/GB of memory.
And taking it a little further:
ALL "p" framerates still record a full 50fps (adding in duplicate frames as necessary to 'fill up' the frame-rate)
ALL "pN" framerates only record the actual frames shot once, taking up less space, but giving lower compatibility.
- Mikko
The very simple difference between "p" and "pN" is this:
They key here is the difference between 'shooting' and 'recording' framerates.
The DVCPRO-HD/720p standard signal is for a full 50 fps (in PAL areas).
So normally when you are shooting 25p and recording 50p, each frame is recorded twice, so that in the end, a full 50 frames/sec are recorded. This is a standard DVCPRO-HD signal that can be transferred in real time, for example to DVCPRO-HD tape.
However, when you are shooting 25p and recording 25pN, each frame is only actually recoded once to the P2 card. The result is a signal that's not "full rate" DVCPRO-HD, and can't be moved as a real-time signal, for example to DVCPRO-HD tape (which requires the full 50frames each sec). But the P2 cards can be used to hold these 25frames/sec just fine. .. but they only take half the space to do so, which with the limited record times of P2 is a great feature.
In either instance, you will need an editor that can understand the 25p format you are shooting to.
So, in short:
720/25p = shoots at 25p, records each frame twice for a final recording of 50fps -> a data-rate of 100mbps, or about 1 minute/GB of memory.
720/25pN = shoots at 25p, only records each frame once for a final recording of 25fps -> a data-rate of only 50mbps, or about 2 minutes/GB of memory.
And taking it a little further:
ALL "p" framerates still record a full 50fps (adding in duplicate frames as necessary to 'fill up' the frame-rate)
ALL "pN" framerates only record the actual frames shot once, taking up less space, but giving lower compatibility.
- Mikko
Sikari-Sakari
Member
Thank you Mikko for your great answer!
Is mastering the pN material a problem considering "lower compatibility?" I've been thinking that the mastering would be done on a Avid Nitris. I just thought that I'll plug in my external hard drive and that's it.
Because I'm shooting a documentary, I've been using the pN mode for longer shooting times. Still, in certain situations I feel that my 2x8gb'n and 2x4 gb's aren't enough.
If I shoot slow motion 50fps, does it become a problem in the timeline? I haven't had the time to play with the FCP6 too much but the I've understood that the timeline recognizes automaticly the format for you and I don't have to deal with the extra hassle.
And finally, what is the actual downsize of the pN compared to P? Does this affect to grading the picture or what? Surely the 100 mbs vs. the 50 mbs can be seen in somewhere.
I can still try to change to just shooting 720P. I haven't shot That much yet.
Is mastering the pN material a problem considering "lower compatibility?" I've been thinking that the mastering would be done on a Avid Nitris. I just thought that I'll plug in my external hard drive and that's it.
Because I'm shooting a documentary, I've been using the pN mode for longer shooting times. Still, in certain situations I feel that my 2x8gb'n and 2x4 gb's aren't enough.
If I shoot slow motion 50fps, does it become a problem in the timeline? I haven't had the time to play with the FCP6 too much but the I've understood that the timeline recognizes automaticly the format for you and I don't have to deal with the extra hassle.
And finally, what is the actual downsize of the pN compared to P? Does this affect to grading the picture or what? Surely the 100 mbs vs. the 50 mbs can be seen in somewhere.
I can still try to change to just shooting 720P. I haven't shot That much yet.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
I'm not sure about the specific compatibilities with the various NLEs, check the NLE sections here on 'user and test for yourself to be sure.
As to quality, there is NO difference in image quality. The drop in bitrate is simply dues to less recorded frames. If you are recording all 50 frames in (25)"p", and it take 100mbs, and you then only record half that number in (25)"pN" then the datarate needed drops to half (50mbps) as well. That simple. .. So shooting at 32pN (for example) your datarate will be about 64mbps. .. And shooting 50pN will of course fill the whole 100mbps again.
I have a chart of approximate record times posted here: http://dvxuser.mikkowilson.com/p2chart/
But be sure to check the compatibility in post for your planned workflow - one of the reasons the camera provides so many options is because there are so many options in post.
- Mikko
As to quality, there is NO difference in image quality. The drop in bitrate is simply dues to less recorded frames. If you are recording all 50 frames in (25)"p", and it take 100mbs, and you then only record half that number in (25)"pN" then the datarate needed drops to half (50mbps) as well. That simple. .. So shooting at 32pN (for example) your datarate will be about 64mbps. .. And shooting 50pN will of course fill the whole 100mbps again.
I have a chart of approximate record times posted here: http://dvxuser.mikkowilson.com/p2chart/
But be sure to check the compatibility in post for your planned workflow - one of the reasons the camera provides so many options is because there are so many options in post.
- Mikko