What's the "1D MKIV"?

[Barry_Green]

Um, don't take this the wrong way, BG, but my clients seem to think both the 7D and GH1 are pretty damn good. You may not, of course, and you're entitled to your opinion.

Well, like I say, there's the natural beauty, and then there's the plastic-surgery frankenstein sculpted and painted with makeup to look like a natural beauty. I'm a believer in the former, but obviously there are people who like the latter, and it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.

The simple undisputable fact of the matter is, the 7D (and 5D and GH1) are simply awful cameras. They resolve terribly and their images are completely riddled with aliasing, in fact it may be that over half the image is aliasing.

And, even so, many people think they make simply lovely images, in spite of the fact that they are, objectively and qualitatively, awful. I would hope that we would collectively hold the line on demanding something good. But, at the price point, these cams are somewhat irresistible.

But that doesn't make 'em good.

I was discussing it with Adam Wilt, and he said that he shot real-world images, and then put the cameras on zone plates, and it proved to him "how bad a camera could be, and still make attractive images."

But, I'm getting a head of myself -- I've got this article mostly ready to go, and then people will hopefully see and understand what I'm talking about, and then will be more forewarned about what shortcuts these cameras are taking and how it can come back to bite them. I don't like getting bitten, I don't even like the prospect of getting bitten (hence my long-standing aversion to long-GoP and rolling shutter; I thought I'd hit bottom when I got an HMC40 which is both long-GoP and rolling shutter, but now I have a 7D and GH1 which are long-GoP, rolling shutter, and alias-masters!)

Anyway, if you're happy, you're happy...

 

[Stephen Mick]

Yeah. Should be any day now. I'm just dreading the price. It'll either be too high considering what we have now and I'll want one or too low for what it is and I'll want two.

=(

I'm with you, Kholi. I've been on the sidelines on the whole RED situation, simply because their products and workflow have never fit well with the work I do. But if they can deliver on the promise of Scarlet, and if they can do it at a competitive price point without having to "spec-out" the camera with $5k worth of "accessories," then I'll be really intrigued.

Either way, we've got some good choices now, and we'll soon have more better ones, I hope.

 

[mhood]

At least I can sleep at night free from worries that my non-UDMA CF card might degrade my 7D's picture... LOL

 

[Stephen Mick]

Well, like I say, there's the natural beauty, and then there's the plastic-surgery frankenstein sculpted and painted with makeup to look like a natural beauty. I'm a believer in the former, but obviously there are people who like the latter, and it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.

The simple undisputable fact of the matter is, the 7D (and 5D and GH1) are simply awful cameras. They resolve terribly and their images are completely riddled with aliasing, in fact it may be that over half the image is aliasing.

And, even so, many people think they make simply lovely images, in spite of the fact that they are, objectively and qualitatively, awful. I would hope that we would collectively hold the line on demanding something good. But, at the price point, these cams are somewhat irresistible.

But that doesn't make 'em good.

I was discussing it with Adam Wilt, and he said that he shot real-world images, and then put the cameras on zone plates, and it proved to him "how bad a camera could be, and still make attractive images."

We can go back and forth on this all day, and we're both "right."

The 7D, 5D and GH1 are great cameras, because they create beautiful images in the right hands, and at an attractive price point. They offer filmmakers a tool that, when matched to the right application, can deliver images no other camera near the price point can touch.

And all of them are flawed cameras, as the underlying technology they use introduces problems that are difficult or impossible to overcome in certain situations, and footage that would most likely not be acceptable at certain levels of distribution (HD-networks in particular).

A key aspect of being a professional in any field is the ability to choose the right tool for the job at hand. Right now, we have a range of tools at our disposal, from the super-sharp EX1 to the mighty-mini HMC40 to this new breed of HDSLRs.

But to say they're "awful" is opinion at best, and hyperbole at worst. Should we push for better? Absolutely. And when it comes along, and I have a need and a justification for it, I'll be second in line (behind Kholi, probably).

 

[philiplipetz]

From my days as an audio recording tech I know that a sound that has initial appeal due to high frequency hash will not be listenable over a long period of time.

Barry is right that 5-7d images are awful and yet some of the posted videos are amazing, look at the Frontline doc on fighting in Afghanistan. My worry is if this is an analogous situation to my audio experience. Aliasing magnifies transitions that should be subdued so the resulting video creates false detail, and people seem to like that - but will they still be pleased after watching a two hour film as fatigue might set in from trying to reconcile false detail with what the brain expects to see? I do not know. I wish I did. I bet the camera manufacturers are wondering if they can continue to get away with this.

 

[Kholi]

I'll tell you what: if Juan was still doing today what he did for the DVX then it would be officially game over, man.

Just imagining having the still quality piped out of this camera is pretty much THE end all of acquisition systems. Talk about having an affordable destructor of all things motion picture.

 

[shoqman]

The simple undisputable fact of the matter is, the 7D (and 5D and GH1) are simply awful cameras. They resolve terribly and their images are completely riddled with aliasing, in fact it may be that over half the image is aliasing.

Barry, I feel like for whatever reason you're just full of crap on this one. The 7D especially is a terrific camera, aliasing shows up EVERY NOW AND THEN and is usually not a big deal.

You're saying that sharpness-wise, resolution-wise, you don't think the cameras are good.

Everything else (ie colors, latitude, flexibilty, lens choice, workflow etc), if you actually try, works and looks great. I really don't have a clue what everyone is going on about. I just took it to Las Vegas and shot all sorts of things that look amazing.

It's not just usable, it's really great footage. I mean, I can use this to make awesome money, and I'm psyched by that, really have no idea why everyone is complaining.

The GH1's compression makes it useless to me, but this camera does a fantastic job.

Anyway, you're entitled to opine on your own forum obviously, but you've gone from "Hey, let's try some tests and see what it can do!" to flat out "Piece of crap- shooting with this camera will give you cancer." I don't buy it.

 

[Barry_Green]

But to say they're "awful" is opinion at best, and hyperbole at worst.

Well, I guess it depends on what your definition is of what a camera should do. I'd like for it to accurately reproduce what it's pointed at. And by that standard, they are indeed awful. They are not good at that job at all. Look at the res chart, and think what that res chart should look like, and you'll see that they totally fail to reproduce what they're pointed at with any real degree of accuracy. And that same failing happens in real world situations too, every bit as bad. By my standard, that makes it "awful". However, the very low price point goes to mitigate a lot of that. A conscious tradeoff, accepting worse quality for cheaper price.

Someone else's standard might be "I'd like to have beautiful imagery, regardless of whether it's accurate or not." By that standard, they can produce stunning gorgeous photography, as long as they're kept away from fine detail that can alias badly; shallow-DOF photography suits them very well. But, they can pooch you, if you try to shoot deep focus. By this standard, I'd say they're excellent for portraiture, as long as you keep a very tight leash on them.

Someone else's standard might be "I want it to look like I shot it on a bigger camera with a 35mm DOF, and if I have to jump through hoops to keep the shots shallow focus and keep things from ruining the shot, then that's what I'll do in order to get the potential for great imagery at this price point." And if that's what someone wants, these all fit the bill very well and do an amazing job.

Anyway, I went out and shot some simple deep-focus shots of my house, and I'm horrified by the aliasing and moire. I'm definitely selling at least one of these, if not both. Maybe I'll keep one as a portraiture cam. I'm far more interested in a Scarlet now that I've explored what today's DSLR offerings have to offer.

(and yes, prior to actually learning how they work, I was delighted with the amazing images coming off the GH1. Now that I've explored what their limits are, I think they're just too limiting, I think the aliasing is far more objectionable than the mud, and ... meh, they're simply not well rounded trustable tools. Your and everyone else's mileage may vary).

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, I feel like for whatever reason you're just full of crap on this one.

Leading with a statement like that really doesn't dignify a response. Please tone it down.

The 7D especially is a terrific camera, aliasing shows up EVERY NOW AND THEN and is usually not a big deal.

Aliasing shows up on every shot. Whether you notice it or not, whether it's objectionable or not, is another thing entirely. But it's always there. Always. Every frame. It's how these cameras work.

You're saying that sharpness-wise, resolution-wise, you don't think the cameras are good.

That is because they are not. Whether you like the footage is a different matter.

Everything else (ie colors, latitude, flexibilty, lens choice, workflow etc), if you actually try, works and looks great.

Agreed, all those are excellent.

Anyway, you're entitled to opine on your own forum obviously, but you've gone from "Hey, let's try some tests and see what it can do!" to flat out "Piece of crap- shooting with this camera will give you cancer." I don't buy it.

I don't recall invoking "cancer" anywhere. I've said that they do a lousy job of accurately representing images, and that much if not most of their perceived "sharpness" is fake aliasing.

I don't do this for popularity, I do it to point out what IS, and what ISN'T. I was hated and vilified when I posted my rolling shutter article. Rolling shutter was a new phenomenon and people had to learn what it could do and couldn't do. People on other boards screamed, they were calling it "yellow journalism" and other insulting terms, yet here we are a few years down the road and every single thing I said about the rolling shutter turned out to be exactly true. And now that people know what it does, they work around it, or choose a different product.

And now, we're here with a new phenomenon -- cameras that make their images sharp not with actual resolved detail, but with aliasing. It is not something we have really ever faced before. It's new, and it needs to be explored. It is a cheat. It can look good, or it can look horrific. I think people should know what these products do, when it can go bad on them, and how to avoid it going bad on them.

If you disagree, it makes no difference to me. I will still say it.

But, whatever, have fun and shoot fantastic footage with whatever your chosen tool is.

 

[Kholi]

I dunno why you guys refute Barry's knowledge, man. Just earlier today we had someone saying the new firmware update fixed aliasing.

Uhh... simple chart showed that wasn't accurate. It did nothing to the image.

I don't think the cameras aren't worthy of great footage as a tools. I did think that about the HVX200 and again, after I saw the footage projected, it just changed my mind. But there's validity in everything that he's saying. They aren't the kinds of tools that we had even just with the latest Panasonic Prosumer Video camera released on a technical level.

And that's just fact.

 

[FatDaddy]

Looks like a new Canon is on the way. NDA must be up at midnight (west coast):
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/

Maybe the next version gets better...

 

[shoqman]

I dunno why you guys refute Barry's knowledge, man.

Because the conclusion that it is an "awful" camera is absurd at best.

It's really bad at shooting resolution charts. It really is. My XH-A1 blows it out of the water at that.

Oh, turns out, I don't shoot anything like that almost ever.

Wide shots full of detail come out looking great. Very sharp. Not as sharp as the 5k still image scaled down to 1080p, but who on earth expected it would?

The reports of it "blowing the RED out of the water" are also absurd. But for the price, it's amazing. It provides ridiculously good images in any and all light.

If you shoot power lines or red brick buildings with deep focus very often, you're going to have to pull slightly soft focus to avoid aliasing.

Otherwise, in almost all situations I have tested, it looks awesome.

Simply put, to call it awful is ridiculous.

 

[Barry_Green]

To you, shoqman. And I think throwing around phrases such as "full of crap" are pretty ridiculous too.

So -- look. My points are made in the article, the reasoning I come up with is there. If you disagree after that, well, to each his own.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=187503

 

[Luis Caffesse]

Didn't Jim Jannard say the Scarlet release announcement was coming in a couple weeks?

Oct. 30th.

 

[Pirata]

From canonrumors:


Out of left field
A new spec list has appeared.
Specs
21.1 Megapixels
Full Frame with 1.3 Crop Mode
8 FPS in Full Frame Mode – 12 FPS in 1.3 Crop Mode
Dual Digic IV Processors
Native ISO 25,600
Boost Mode ISO upto 102,400
45 AF Points – 39 Cross
63 Zone Metering
1080p @ 24-60 fps – 720p @ 120 fps
S-RAW Video – HDMI HD video output
3″ Fold & Tilt LCD Screen
Self Cleaning Sensor
There will also be three accessories at launch:
1. VDSLR Mount System
2. XLR Pro Audio Module
3. 1TB Flash Recording Module
The XLR Pro Audio Module and 1TB Flash Recording Modules are made to connect into the VDSLR Mount System to convert the camera into a fully fledged Video device, changing the form factor into one that Filmmakers are more familiar with. Will report back when I get further information.

 

[powervideo]

From canonrumors:


Out of left field
A new spec list has appeared.
Specs
21.1 Megapixels
Full Frame with 1.3 Crop Mode
8 FPS in Full Frame Mode – 12 FPS in 1.3 Crop Mode
Dual Digic IV Processors
Native ISO 25,600
Boost Mode ISO upto 102,400
45 AF Points – 39 Cross
63 Zone Metering
1080p @ 24-60 fps – 720p @ 120 fps
S-RAW Video – HDMI HD video output
3″ Fold & Tilt LCD Screen
Self Cleaning Sensor
There will also be three accessories at launch:
1. VDSLR Mount System
2. XLR Pro Audio Module
3. 1TB Flash Recording Module
The XLR Pro Audio Module and 1TB Flash Recording Modules are made to connect into the VDSLR Mount System to convert the camera into a fully fledged Video device, changing the form factor into one that Filmmakers are more familiar with. Will report back when I get further information.

If that is all true, then the 7D will be on eBay....

 

[mhood]

...and damn their eyes for releasing it in the first place.

 

[Kholi]

From canonrumors:


Out of left field
A new spec list has appeared.
Specs
21.1 Megapixels
Full Frame with 1.3 Crop Mode
8 FPS in Full Frame Mode – 12 FPS in 1.3 Crop Mode
Dual Digic IV Processors
Native ISO 25,600
Boost Mode ISO upto 102,400
45 AF Points – 39 Cross
63 Zone Metering
1080p @ 24-60 fps – 720p @ 120 fps
S-RAW Video – HDMI HD video output
3″ Fold & Tilt LCD Screen
Self Cleaning Sensor
There will also be three accessories at launch:
1. VDSLR Mount System
2. XLR Pro Audio Module
3. 1TB Flash Recording Module
The XLR Pro Audio Module and 1TB Flash Recording Modules are made to connect into the VDSLR Mount System to convert the camera into a fully fledged Video device, changing the form factor into one that Filmmakers are more familiar with. Will report back when I get further information.

FML... FML so hard

 

[squig]

No digic V but 1080p 50p cool, S-RAW video? sounds cool, XLR audio module cool, fold and tilt LCD sounds cool. It's a MKII on steroids. I wasn't expecting that many megapixels and full frame.

The 1TB flash recording module suggests it can capture at a very high bit-rate.

 

[ChipG]

From canonrumors:


Out of left field
A new spec list has appeared.
Specs
21.1 Megapixels
Full Frame with 1.3 Crop Mode
8 FPS in Full Frame Mode – 12 FPS in 1.3 Crop Mode
Dual Digic IV Processors
Native ISO 25,600
Boost Mode ISO upto 102,400
45 AF Points – 39 Cross
63 Zone Metering
1080p @ 24-60 fps – 720p @ 120 fps
S-RAW Video – HDMI HD video output
3″ Fold & Tilt LCD Screen
Self Cleaning Sensor
There will also be three accessories at launch:
1. VDSLR Mount System
2. XLR Pro Audio Module
3. 1TB Flash Recording Module
The XLR Pro Audio Module and 1TB Flash Recording Modules are made to connect into the VDSLR Mount System to convert the camera into a fully fledged Video device, changing the form factor into one that Filmmakers are more familiar with. Will report back when I get further information.

Geez, big question is how much?