What Stage is your RED Camera ?

It's all good and fine for them that they can just announce these products and keep delaying their release - there's no competition at their announced price point, not by a long shot... eventually that will change and if a competitor (Canon, Panasonic) releases a product before they do, then that particular product line (scarlet) is pretty much compromised for them. If no competitor rears its head, then they can keep announcing and delays don't hurt them too much because what else can the buyer do?
 
Barry_Green said:
No schedules for the Epic-X were given... I guess that portends that no schedule for the Scarlet may be given on Nov. 30th.
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no schedule indeed, but did say that the stage one beta "Tattoo" users... those cams will be available before the end of this year (barring any major drama)

later,
Jason
 
dadoboy said:
It's all good and fine for them that they can just announce these products and keep delaying their release - there's no competition at their announced price point, not by a long shot... eventually that will change and if a competitor (Canon, Panasonic) releases a product before they do, then that particular product line (scarlet) is pretty much compromised for them. If no competitor rears its head, then they can keep announcing and delays don't hurt them too much because what else can the buyer do?
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But how do they make any money if they never release anything?

I want a Scarlet as much as the next guy, but I'm not gonna wait forever for it. If it comes out and I can afford it, and more importantly, if it can fit into my budget (don't forget post prod requirements) and my needs, then I'll get it. But until then it just makes sense to use the best that's available now.

I think in the long run, this constant building up of hype and anticipation can be damaging as well. Look at something like the Canon 7D or Pany GH1. Those came out about a month or two after the initial announcements, gave us great imagery at a price point unheard of for a camera of its type, and shoot stills to boot. But there are plenty of people who just complain and complain about it not being good enough or "unusable".

With all the hype for the Scarlet, if the footage is not better than or at the very least as good as a Red One, then there will be fire in the forums. And I'm not talking the S35 Scarlets and up, but the 2/3 ones as well. Not everyone, but many many people are gonna blow their tops if the first frame grabs or footage leaked are not nearly freaking perfect.
 
Looks great as always. More cameras less sexy pictures. We are all pullin for ya Red but Canon looks very hungry and might eat some of your lunch if you don't start shipping gear instead of taking sexy pictures.
 
I love my GH1 more by the minute. Thank you Panasonic for letting me share your image "mojo". To only think that, even though it took a nerve wrecking couple of months to get it, I only payed $1500.00 for it makes me very very happy. And even though it offers great capabilities as of now to think that in the not too distant future there might be a GH2 with better performance and most likely the same price tag makes even happier. The Scarlet? Only a very distant dream right now.
 
OldCorpse said:
You know, it does take a lot of hard work, by smart people to release a great product. Everybody knows that.

However, it takes genius to release a great product on schedule.

There is something Steve Jobs once said, that stuck with me. He was talking about all the great products companies have in their labs, and how many don't make it to market, or only make it much later. That's when he said "real artists ship". What he meant, is that no matter how great and smart the product is, the sign of a truly great engineer or artist is to actually release a product. A product that is not ready to be released, no matter how great, is simply not a finished product, and by that fact alone tells you it's not a complete masterpiece... something is missing, something is not good enough TO SHIP. A true genius makes EVERYTHING good enough to ship.

So, no question the Red gang are a bunch of smart and hard working guys. But are they real artists?

Sure, the 5DII, the 7D, the GH1 all have shortcomings. But they shipped. And at the end of the day, would you rather have a real product with shortcomings IN YOUR HAND, or a dream product that's perfect and with no shortcomings, but exists only IN YOUR MIND? People will answer that differently... until it's time to shoot, and you can't postpone the date.

I wish the Red people the best of luck. We all love great gear. And I fervently hope, that they're real artists.
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My guess is that Red won't stand for releasing a product like the 7D or GH1...

I bet they could box up a turd and sell it to you in an instant if they wanted to. It takes time to change the world.

I am shooting for stage 2 in this. So exciting.
 
Corpse... That is a very astute observation. What I see is a company under no authority to anyone else other than themselves. When that goes on, there's things that aren't checked and no real shareholders to appease, no board of directors, no larger corp. You see it all the time in business when they become soverign and that's kind of Red's design from the ground up. Having slogans and things about change doesn't really comfort those that are designing shootings and budgets around speculation.

If people remember back to that cineporter thing for the HVX... how many people held off in buying realworld products in the hopes and aspirations of something that never made it to market.

There is a bit of a Peter and the Wolf thing going on here... but certainly they can sell the sizzle more than the steak. It's just a matter of whether that steak gets cooked perfectly and comes out on time, or if it's charred and mangaled. Either way, as time proceeds more people will buy other cameras or become disillsillusioned with the Red company.


Personally... I'm going to wait patiently as this camera would be used on a project that is about a year or more away... so with that, I'm willing to comment and jab and dodge and whatever until then. And I'll either borrow a DSLR or buy one. You can buy one from the cost of their LCD screens....
 
Code Rad said:
My guess is that Red won't stand for releasing a product like the 7D or GH1...

I bet they could box up a turd and sell it to you in an instant if they wanted to. It takes time to change the world.
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Well, one thing is for sure. They won't have a product that competes with the affordable prices of the more inexpensive DSLR's(which for a lot of people will ultimately decide which camera they are getting.)

I think it is lame to defend RED by using other companies as the scapegoat for RED's delays, etc.

So, please name which video/photography product made by Canon or Panasonic ,around these price points, that you would label as a turd in a box? Is is the GH1 or the 7D?

And what does a stage 2 EPIC have to do with HDSLR's?
 
Ryan Paige said:
I have no doubt that the Scarlet we get when it finally comes out will be better than the Scarlet we would've gotten had it come out this Fall or earlier.
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That's the problem with electronics today, if you are always improving and moving the release date...you'll never get the camera into the market. The same way it's impossible to "wait" for a more powerful computer for you post work...by the time the one you end up with is built, shipped, installed and ready for use either its retail has dropped like a rock, or something more powerful are just around the corner.

The larger clients need reliability, even us smaller freelancers need a certain amount of planing for projects. With the established manufacturers you mostly see stuff launched and delivered on the mark...(Sony/Panasonic...).

The end result might be that people go back to the good old ENG size camera, or the proven alternatives...
 
stage 15 :D meaning i'm gonna keep working with my Pannies until something reasonable
will be put on the table, not just promises!
 
RED is just serving it's existing well-heeled customers. The Scarlets will come, just not at the expense of those that have already given the company hundreds of millions of dollars (There's close to 7000 Red Ones in the world at $17500 a piece plus accessories).

But I'm done waiting for a while. I picked up a 7D, a flawed but beautiful camera that destroys the Sony TRV 900 that I bought for the same price 10 years ago.

When the Scarlets are shipping and done beta testing, I'll pick up one. :)
 
RED is just serving it's existing well-heeled customers. The Scarlets will come, just not at the expense of those that have already given the company hundreds of millions of dollars (There's close to 7000 Red Ones in the world at $17500 a piece plus accessories).

But I'm done waiting for a while. I picked up a 7D, a flawed but beautiful camera that destroys the Sony TRV 900 that I bought for the same price 10 years ago.

When the Scarlets are shipping and done beta testing, I'll pick up one. :)
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Agreed 100%.
 
It makes absolute sense that Epic is their priority.

They promised that "Obsolescence is obsolete" when they sold Red Ones. They've now said that Red One won't be part of the plan going forward, it will be retired, so they probably (rightly) feel an obligation to fulfill the promise to their Red One owners and deliver a solid Epic-X, before recruiting new customers with Scarlet.

Which may very well bode well for Scarlet, when it ever comes out. Because frankly, I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect the S35 Scarlet to outperform the original Red One -- it'll have the Mysterium-X, and two years' of additional technological advancement because of the elapsed development time. So if they launched Scarlet first, Red One owners might feel betrayed. Whereas if they focus on the Epic-X upgrade program, they're taking care of their partners who helped them keep the ship afloat during the crucial formative months.

So even though I would rather have a Scarlet today and have no interest in an Epic-X or Epic or those other products, surely Jim is choosing the right path in focusing on the customers that they made promises to.

And we future Scarleteers will just have to wait.

Frankly, with the choices available on the market, there really isn't anything wrong with waiting. It's not like it was a few years ago when the only things being offered were 1/3" at $6000+. Now we've got perfectly capable stand-ins until the real deal arrives. They have issues, sure, but they're here now and they work and they're cheap.
 
Red has stated they don't want to release incremental upgrades like Canon/Nikon are doing. So they're pushing back release dates, improving development, etc... to provide the best camera they can whenever they end up releasing it. That's how they want to run their business and that's their right.

On the other hand, I'd rather have seen the 3K for $3K they originally talked about. Modularity is great and all but it drives the cost up. If they could have made the original Scarlet and had a solid production model out within a year they would have sold thousands. Than they can work on making the modular system with cash coming in. In the meantime, anyone who bought the original Scarlet could be earning money with it, paying for the camera, using that camera to buy the next Red release, and having a likely bigger fund. Plus, you could get your post situation in order for the next release, start building up your storage and hardware requirements, etc...

The way it is now, you can't buy the camera because they keep improving it but not releasing it. I'd rather have a camera in hand today, put it to use so it can pay for itself, then buy the upgrade later. Is it like all the other companies? Yep. But can you at least there's a product on the market and you can decide if it's right for you.

Maybe Canon isn't releasing incremental upgrades to keep you always buying the next release but because they're rather improve their products to a usable point and release it. People buy it, then Canon improves their tech and releases an update because they're improving. You can buy the upgrade or wait. Some companies will continue to increase their tech, release products with minor improvements, then improve tech and release another upgrade. Red seems more willing to continue to improve their product and push back the release dates until it hits the usability rating they want.

Which way is right? Neither. Just different business models. Personally, I prefer to hear about a product with a release immediately or very, very soon. Not announce a product, change it, announce it, miss a release date, make another announcement that includes the announcement for another announcement in a month, etc... Having a disclaimer that everything is subject to change doesn't unring a bell though, and I think that's why people are getting frustrated with the continuous announcements but no product releases.

When Red releases their cameras the market will dictate whether it's been worth the wait. In the meantime, whatever. Buy a camera and shoot.
 
Ryan Paige said:
Your post implies that once the Scarlet and Epic are released (if ever), Red will never make another camera or improvement.

There's never going to be a point in time when there's no room left for improvement and no company, not even Red, can wait until that time comes to release a product.
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I can see how my post implies that, though that isn't the intent. I'm saying at some point Red needs to stop improving and start testing. It looks like they're coming to that stage now. I would have rather they started testing a while ago and locked their specs/design to get a solid product to market sooner, albeit with fewer features. Then the improvements they're working on now would come in a future release.

All hardware/software manufacturers need to continually improve their products or they'll go out of business. But if you're always improving and never releasing you run the risk of losing your market, especially if you've announced a product too early.
 
For me, holy grail is a D7 guts in a pro video body for less than 10K, zoom lens(fixed or not doesnt matter) included. (Recording codec doesnt matter as long as I can use it with an external device like nanoflash)
Even though RED started & inspired revolutionary ideas for a similar product ironically it wont be RED that will come up with it first. I still believe in early 2010 Canon(or any other big boys) will drop the bomb.
Then what??? Scarlet version 3 renders & specs will be scrapped for an 'improved' version 4?
 
Jim Klatt said:
Well, one thing is for sure. They won't have a product that competes with the affordable prices of the more inexpensive DSLR's(which for a lot of people will ultimately decide which camera they are getting.)

I think it is lame to defend RED by using other companies as the scapegoat for RED's delays, etc.

So, please name which video/photography product made by Canon or Panasonic ,around these price points, that you would label as a turd in a box? Is is the GH1 or the 7D?

And what does a stage 2 EPIC have to do with HDSLR's?
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When people complain about Red delays they often turn to the 7D, etc.. The HDSLRs accomplish only part of what I am looking for which includes 35mm DOF, frame rates, and RAW images. Moire and aliasing are two things I can't stand.
 
Canon does not have high end cameras to protect unlike Panasonic and Sony. The most expensive cam they have is probably the XL-H1 series. In the higher end side, Canon sells a PL mount 35mm prime cinema and 2/3" ENG lenses.

IMHO, Canon already have all the missing pieces to make a great indie cinema cameras.

They need
1) A Codec.
2) Low mid end priced cinema lenses.

Imagine if

Their still still camera division collaborating with their video division and their still lenses division and they decided to:

a) Put the 7D S35mm sensor and its video capability technology into the XL Series or XH Series camera body.
b) Make it a Canon Mount body made for Canon SLR still Lenses.
c) Introduce a mid priced Canon Cinema lenses, take their SLR still prime lenses, make the focus throw longer and put gear rings into the body. Ridiculous ? Zeiss is currently offering this exact option.
e) Introduce a new recording codec.

Introduce the camera sometime in the Spring before NAB or early Summer after NAB. We all know Canon like to have their own product event. Imagine how many of these will sell to potential Scarlet buyers.

Canon might as well do it now while Red is still figuring out the Scarlet. Why not beat the competition by being ahead.
 
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