What are we going to do with no P2 Laptops?

Green Hornet

Green Hornet

Veteran
The panasonic system is based on a PCMCIA/CARDBUS 32 backbone.
This was great when all laptops had one,
but most all laptops made after july 2008 will most likely not have them.

This looks like it could be a big deal for panasonic and it's P2 format unless they come out with an economical solution for offloading P2 cards.

How about a firewire based P2 card reader for under $200?

Next year might not look so good, if you can't offload!

Sofar I am ok as I have a Custom built Gateway NX860XL
with a matt 1920x2000 screen (no gloss glare),
with dedicated video card, and pcmcia port, and 7200 core 2 duo processor.

But I would like to have something lighter, that thing weighs about 10 pounds.

, I also have a sony vaio for light weight stuff (but has no pcmcia slot).

I used a fujitsu stylistic 4110 tablet (which I am selling).
It has a pccia slot, a docking station and is light weight, but I don't think I am cut out for the touchscreen workflow, even thogh it is configured to auto logon and auto download cards to 120gig internal hard drive.

Anyway....for the past 3 weeks i have been looking for somthing that can:

download P2, (have pcmcia slot)
be light weight (under 6 pounds)
Less than 1.5" thick
Look cool,
edit with premiere pro cs3
edit with Magic bullet in HD (needs dedicated grapics card with 256 meg ram).

This is almost impossible to find.

Alienware doesn't have anything with pcmcia (althought they have some screaming laptops).

I might just have to buy one of the acer laptops they have at circuit city or staples under $700. They have pcmcia but are otherwise slow as molassas falling from a tree on a cold winter morning.
 
I bought a Fujitsu Lifebook from NewEgg two weeks ago to replace a Toshiba that I gave to a friend.

The new laptop has both PCMCIA/PCCard and ExpressCard slots, a Core 2 Duo processor, and of course a DV port. I'm not planning on editing with it, but I will use it to offload cards and run DV Rack 2.1 HD for monitoring and event recording. I was stunned that I was actually able to still get the software activated, but everything I need is up and running.

The Lifebook was under $700.
 
My primary point was that even though there are some laptops left with PCMCIA slots, Most likely the next generation, will not have them, and where will that leave Panasonic?

I went to Staples, Circuit City, and Best Buy, and out of what they had,
There were only 3 laptops with PCMCIA slots.
(2) Acer and (1) Sony.

The Acers were the last generations to be sold in stores with pcmcia slots at around $600-$700. They came with the entry line core2 duo processor (2370)

The sony was a so called high end 13.3 inch laptop with 8100 core 2 duo lots of ram but not much ram dedicated to the video card, and still cost $1,800.

that was basically the only options with the brick and mortar stores.

Again, the point being, what happens in 6 months when anyone who has not a p2 camera, enters into the P2 game, only to find no inexpensive means to offload.

Will they all be left to pawn shop laptops?

Should not the manufacture of the P2 solution have an inexpensive means to do this?

That 170 camera might turn out to be the late date to the prom.

Or even worse, the guy at the prom who shows up late without a date at all.
 
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Okay, I just listed two dozen brands that are available right now, from just about all the major manufacturers. Where's the problem?

For those that are expresscard-only, there are already multiple solutions. The Duel Adapter, the Addonics adapter, and the upcoming PCD35 all connect P2 cards to laptops using the ExpressCard adapter. Plus there's the PCD10 and PCD20, which let you read p2 cards through the USB or FW800 port. Then there's the P2 Store, which lets any USB laptop read the cards. Then there's the P2 Gear and P2 Mobile, which support reading the cards through USB or firewire. Then there's the camera itself, which supports reading the cards on any laptop through firewire or USB.

Then there's the idea that every Panasonic laptop supports PCMCIA and always will. I bet that as long as P2's on the market, the Panasonic laptops will have the slot.

How many different solutions do you want?
 
Barry_Green said:
Okay, I just listed two dozen brands that are available right now, from just about all the major manufacturers. Where's the problem?
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the problem is, that every day, the dozen brands listed are no longer supporting PCMCIA. Just walk into any local store to see what I mean.

Barry_Green said:
For those that are expresscard-only, there are already multiple solutions. The Duel Adapter,
Click to expand...

Many of us, including myself have tried this, with mixed results.
It doesn't work with my sony Vaio.
Barry_Green said:
the Addonics adapter, and the upcoming PCD35 all connect P2 cards to laptops using the ExpressCard adapter. Plus there's the PCD10 and PCD20, which let you read p2 cards through the USB or FW800 port. Then there's the P2 Store, which lets any USB laptop read the cards. Then there's the P2 Gear and P2 Mobile, which support reading the cards through USB or firewire. Then there's the camera itself, which supports reading the cards on any laptop through firewire or USB.
Click to expand...

I have not tried the Addonics adapter, but the other solutions you mentioned are all over $500 ( the price of what use to be an entry level laptop with pcmcia slot).

I am not saying there are no solutions, you clearly showed that there are.
What I am saying is that while other cameras are getting better, adding removable digital cards, with inexpensive offloading solutions, panasonic's solution
is getting to be more expensive.

I love the Panasonic P2 card, but certainly if I were just now getting into the game, the lack of INEXPENSIVE offloading solutions while at the same time having to pay a PREMIUM for the P2 medium, would certainly sway my choice in future proofing my investment. Yeah the P2 card is more than just standard memory, but who cares, it is still a cost that I will have to pay for something that I really won't see the difference over say a class 6 SDHC memory card.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just pointing out something that it seems like no one else either cares about, hasn't thought about, or just had a grand to throw away for every problem or change that came about.

Personally, I would rather Panasonic thow in a firewire P2 card reader instead of a P2 card.

Barry_Green said:
Then there's the idea that every Panasonic laptop supports PCMCIA and always will. I bet that as long as P2's on the market, the Panasonic laptops will have the slot.
Click to expand...

I have not seen these for sale locally, or even online, that was something I didn't consider.

Barry_Green said:
How many different solutions do you want?
Click to expand...


It is not that I want many, but a few that were under $500 that worked.
(unlike the Dual adapter that doesn't like texas instruments chips)
I also found it odd that Panasonic has not future proofed their investment by offering a less than $500 solution directly.

I can not see that would be too expensive to make, as they put them in laptops less than $500, but I do see it as a means to get people on board.
 
I see an opening for an entrepreneur to step in, much as the folks at Red did.

It's time for a new laptop to emerge and answer the needs of the digital cinema community...something with all the external connection types we need.

It would be a niche product to be sure, but hey...there are lots of specialized tools out in the marketplace. It's time for a filmmaker's laptop!

Panasonic is pretty good with widgets...they might see this emerging market.

Look at the Carrion monitor. Anton Bauer...Portabrace...there are lots of examples of small market needs being met with great products!
 
DVCPROHD is a fixed in stone format- never going to get more complex. Used Powerbooks and PCs with PCMCIA card readers will exist forever. Ergo- this is a non-issue. All you have to live with is using an older computer as your transfer station. What's the big deal about that?

Noah
 
What I am saying is that while other cameras are getting better, adding removable digital cards, with inexpensive offloading solutions, panasonic's solution is getting to be more expensive.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Although P2 cards have dropped significantly in the last two years, the lack of an efficient, reliable and reasonably priced FW/USB2 reader is a glaring omission on the part of Panasonic.
 
Al MacLeod said:
It's time for a new laptop to emerge and answer the needs of the digital cinema community...something with all the external connection types we need.
Click to expand...

I am hoping that the Panasonic Laptops will eventually be that very machine. They know what the industry needs.
 
David S. said:
I couldn't agree more. Although P2 cards have dropped significantly in the last two years, the lack of an efficient, reliable and reasonably priced FW/USB2 reader is a glaring omission on the part of Panasonic.
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Man, I don't know if I can agree with that. Yea, if you look strictly at the cost of a P2 card or even say the PCD20, then things appear expensive. But when compared to the cost of doing business in the days of old (i.e. only a few short years ago), where one had to shell out thousands for a dedicated VTR, the price of even a robust laptop becomes negligible.
 
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Everyone would love a $500 reader. For those people, I do like to point out that you can find laptops about that price range and just treat them as dedicated readers.

Want a reader for your desktop? Well, you could network the cheap Windows laptop to your desktop, and there you go.

As Brad points out, the cost of the readers may seem high as standalone devices, but compared to what you used to have to buy, they're really rather insignificant. A DVCPRO-HD tape deck is $25,000. A DVCPRO-HD and AVC-Intra-capable P2 Reader is $2,000.

That doesn't make that $2,000 pill any easier to swallow for an indie who can't afford it, but then again, you've already got a free P2 reader in the camera that you already own.
 
Brad. I don't want a laptop to act as a p2 card reader. And I don't want a PC laptop to capture cards for use on a Mac. That is my preference, and I'm just expressing that.

What I want is a cross platform, reasonably priced solution for transferring cards.

I appreciate BG's comments, but we are shop of two. We do reasonably well, and moved to p2 with a great deal of homework, factoring the price of the media and the means to get the media into a computer. Both currently are still expensive, although price has dropped on p2 cards. I don't know why it can't drop for the reader. But I wish it would. I know we have saved money without having to buy a deck, but there are economic tradeoffs as well in other areas.

I still think that a simple card reader is doable.

And what do we do in two years if we buy a cheap (read cheap) PC laptop with cardbus type II slot that bites the dust?

Because even though there are still some available, many will be EOL eventually.

Then what?

My point being that I still think the absence of a reasonably price p2 card reader for Mac and PC is a glaring absence in the Panasonic product line.

Eventually, laptops with type II slots will go the way of the dinosaur. They haven't as yet, but the trend is growing.
 
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Which is why I keep pushing Panasonic to come up with a "P3" system. An ExpressCard memory card that fits into a PCMCIA-sized cradle (such as, say, THIS one?)

That way you have the best of all possible worlds. You have 100% compatibility with all existing P2 gear. You have an expresscard core which could be used with your Macbook Pro or other expresscard-only computer. And, you have a smaller overall memory card which allows you to develop even smaller camcorders.

To my way of thinking, that'd be the ideal way to go. And I cannot help but think that the higher ups at the factory see this as well. I've been hammering them about it for a couple of years, so I know they know about the idea. Whether or when they'll adopt it is anyone's guess.

As for today, there are dozens of models of laptops that are available that are completely functional and workable, and many other ways to read the existing cards, and those ways will never be obsolete. It's really all down to a matter of slight convenience, and in that respect I do expect that within a few years we will see some manner of "P3" developed. I just can't imagine them not going in that direction, it just makes too much sense.
 
I understand both sides of the fence... In the end though it all boils down to your workflow. I have always looked at the HVX just as I would a DSLR.

You shoot, transfer, edit, and it would make perfect sense to have a card reader as cheap as those that read compact flash cards (well not $20). I mean they are two different arenas (p2 and compact flash).

As far as I'm concerned connecting my camera to a firewire drive is a nuisance (that's my current workflow). A few weeks ago I was going to buy the duel systems adaptor, but I was told it was buggy, since then I have waited for either a better adaptor, or a friend with an older laptop that they aren't using.

The addonics looks promising: http://www.addonics.com/products/host_controller/adexc34cb.asp
But i don't know how reliable the thing is, at the end of the day p2 needs to
be as easy as transferring files from a DSLR to your laptop (regardless if it has PCMCIA or express 34).
 
dantewaters said:
A few weeks ago I was going to buy the duel systems adaptor, but I was told it was buggy, since then I have waited for either a better adaptor, or a friend with an older laptop that they aren't using.
Click to expand...

We've been using the DSA since we got an Alienware for location downloading and playing. It's worked fine except for the one adapter we crushed. :laugh:

I like Barry's idea of the P3 with and adapter. That would passify all those who are afraid P2 is going the way of the Dodo bird.
Personally we're doing good for now with the P2 Cards.
 
Barry_Green said:
Which is why I keep pushing Panasonic to come up with a "P3" system. An ExpressCard memory card that fits into a PCMCIA-sized cradle (such as, say, THIS one?)

That way you have the best of all possible worlds. You have 100% compatibility with all existing P2 gear. You have an expresscard core which could be used with your Macbook Pro or other expresscard-only computer. And, you have a smaller overall memory card which allows you to develop even smaller camcorders.

To my way of thinking, that'd be the ideal way to go. And I cannot help but think that the higher ups at the factory see this as well. I've been hammering them about it for a couple of years, so I know they know about the idea. Whether or when they'll adopt it is anyone's guess.

As for today, there are dozens of models of laptops that are available that are completely functional and workable, and many other ways to read the existing cards, and those ways will never be obsolete. It's really all down to a matter of slight convenience, and in that respect I do expect that within a few years we will see some manner of "P3" developed. I just can't imagine them not going in that direction, it just makes too much sense.
Click to expand...

Is that cradel something that would work with the HVX200?
Does the express card memory slide into a PCMCIA case, that would slide into the HVX200?

I thought the express card memory is too thick?

I would even like a cradle that could hold 2 sdhc memory cards.
You could shoot to that and then take out the sdhc memory cards and offload them to the computer, and reload them with fresh cards.

I just bought two 16 gig sdhc cards that were class 6 cards for $89 each, with usb reader (transcend). At that price, I could get enough cards that I wouldn't have to download in the field.

Even though that makes sense to do this, Panasonic probably won't, as that would surely eliminate the P2 card...
Which leads us back to where this thread started.

It is in Panasonics best interest to make an economical solution to offload the P2 cards, or the P2 cards will go bye bye, by someone else making them obsoleet by making a P3 adapter, or by the elimination of pcmcia laptops, or by everyone eventually going to card cameras that offer a more simple solution to transfer.

Just think about it this way...if Panasonic doesn't offer an inexpensive solution, in 3 years, standard memory cards will be so cheap, that tripple priced P2 cards would make no sense to use.

Everyone will offer a memory card camera in 3 years. The P2 card could lock in your customer base, or alienate them.
I feel that now is the time to get the P2 cards into the customers hands, by doing so, it could keep us buying more P2 cameras.

If the price of P2 cards were such that one could buy a days worth of shooting, and have no need to offload in the field, this whole thread would be moot.

Most inkjet printers are priced to break even on the printer, and lock you in on buying the inks. I think that model could work for Panasonic.
(Break even on the P2 cards, keep seeling us cameras)

Many are already talking about getting something else (Scarlet, red etc.)
A year ago, the hvx200 was the only real solution for its segment.
Now, there are other solutions with higher resolution, and less expensive memory. Obviously the HVx200 offers something other that keeps us, but I just feel that the whole P2 card price, availability, offloading in 2008, would and will make the competition look more apealing.

This is more than a personal rant, as I have owned a P2 store (sold it due to size limitation, but still think it was the best workflow as it used the same batteries, and more simple to operate than a laptop, and less impressive to steal for a thief)
I also have a laptop with pcmcia port (but it is near 10 pounds, so less apealing to carry), the dual adapter never worked for me, my light vaio only has express card, my fujitsu stylistic has pcmcia, but it is a style touchscreen which I find less favorable than a keyboard.

I have solutions, I just think there should be something more, easier and less expensive by the company that should be protecting their brand/customer base.

After thining about this more, Panasonic does not have to recreate the wheel, they already have the hardware.

They could take the parts of the P2 store, remove the hard drive, make the case thinner, and there you go..a P2 card reader.
Give us break even pricing, keep us locked in to the Camera system, win win situation.

Then make the P2 store lighter, thinner, and faster (maybe firewire), higher capacity and sell it to us for break even pricing, and then we no longer need field laptops.

The P2 store is not selling because it is overpriced, not that it is not a good solution.

It's probably slated to be discontinued, so why not first try better pricing for the purpose of continuing P2 card camera sales?
 
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Green Hornet said:
Is that cradel something that would work with the HVX200?
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Probably, if Panasonic made a P2-compatible Expresscard memory stick to go in it.

Does the express card memory slide into a PCMCIA case, that would slide into the HVX200?
Click to expand...
Yes.

I thought the express card memory is too thick?
Click to expand...
Nope, exactly the same thickness.

I would even like a cradle that could hold 2 sdhc memory cards.
You could shoot to that and then take out the sdhc memory cards and offload them to the computer, and reload them with fresh cards.
Click to expand...
Probably isn't going to happen.

I just bought two 16 gig sdhc cards that were class 6 cards for $89 each, with usb reader (transcend). At that price, I could get enough cards that I wouldn't have to download in the field.
Click to expand...
Then you probably want to look at an HMC150, which shoots directly to SDHC memory cards.

Even though that makes sense to do this, Panasonic probably won't, as that would surely eliminate the P2 card...
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No it wouldn't. P2 is for an entirely different market. And P2 is currently taking about 80% of that market, so I don't think they're worried in any way about that.

It is in Panasonics best interest to make an economical solution to offload the P2 cards
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We all want that. And, depending on your definition of "economical", they already have several products that are sub-$2,000. For the market that P2 is aimed at, that's very economical. We'd all love a $500 reader (of course, if Panasonic DID introduce a $500 reader, people'd whine about why it wasn't $100. And if they introduced a $100 reader, people'd complain that they can get a $9 adapter at Fry's that reads SD cards, so why isn't it $9? Sigh.)

Just think about it this way...if Panasonic doesn't offer an inexpensive solution, in 3 years, standard memory cards will be so cheap, that tripple priced P2 cards would make no sense to use.
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And for someone who doesn't understand why the P2 cards are different, maybe that scenario would happen. Which is why they're making the HMC150, so those who don't place the premium on the P2 system can instead use off-the-shelf SDHC cards.

But that isn't gonna fly with their bread and butter customers, the broadcasters. Those folks want what P2 is designed to do.

Everyone will offer a memory card camera in 3 years.
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Three years? Every manufacturer is offering memory-card cameras TODAY.

I feel that now is the time to get the P2 cards into the customers hands, by doing so, it could keep us buying more P2 cameras.
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80% of the market for tapeless cameras is a pretty good head start, don't you think?

If the price of P2 cards were such that one could buy a days worth of shooting, and have no need to offload in the field, this whole thread would be moot.
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That's not who the system is aimed at. Again, I strongly recommend you look at the HMC150 for that type of work. You can record 12 HOURS on a single 32GB compactflash card with that system.

I have solutions, I just think there should be something more, easier and less expensive by the company that should be protecting their brand/customer base.
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We all do. But there isn't. So we point out what existing solutions are out there.

They could take the parts of the P2 store, remove the hard drive, make the case thinner, and there you go..a P2 card reader.
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Yes, they could certainly do that. But how much less expensive would it be? Take out the $100 cost of the hard drive, and the $1800 P2 Store drops to, what, $1600? Ain't gonna help much.
 
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