Wait a minute....Barry, did you say it can "STREAM" to a Laptop Hard Drive??

ullanta said:
Some devices, like the FireStore/QuickCapture/Nnovia are hard drives with a leetle tiny computer that knows how to make the drive record video. That's why they cost more than hard drives.
Make sense?
-Barry
Click to expand...
Really, you're talking about an embedded controller run by a lightweight OS, a la iPod. Better still would be the inclusion of a small RAID -- striping would increase overall write speeds, and redundancy would reduce the danger of dropped frames (or worse). That's essentially what Jeff Kreines is doing with his Kinetta hard-disk "magazine."
 
Of course you're right @ Philipp & ullanta

I guess some people just don't know what the numbers in FW400 and FW800 mean.. ;-)
It's mbit/s folks! See... FW400 = 400 mbit/s, FW800 = 800 mbit/s (of course there's some protocol overhead etc.) ... and now look at DVCProHD with it's maximum rate of 100 mbit/s... I guess you can do the math now!

Btw. 100 mbit/s equals only 12,5MB/s which is a data rate that current HDDs should be able to handle pretty easily. This is not uncompressed 4:4:4 video that we're dealing with here.. don't forget that! I don't see why some form of raid would be needed at least for recording...

Cheers

PS: Barry... Grats for smirkin' that evil smile back @ Shannon :-))
 
True, even the Panasonic DVCPRO HD deck (i forget the model number) uses a Firewire 400 that connects to your computer. So FireWire400 is definitely enough.
 
This is a repost from another thread, but it seems to belong here.

Hey Barry and/or Jan,

I am wondering if you could speculate with me for a moment.

For longer shooting times @ full DVC100 (1080p/24fps), could it be accomplished thusly?:


1) HVX-200 w/o any P2 cards__________$5,000. (eventual street price)
2) Powerbook 15.2" 1.5ghz____________2,000.
3) 2 Wiebetech FW800ComboDocks_______320.
4) 2 raw 200GB SATA Drives____________250.
5) A FW400/800 CardBus PCI Card________75.

TOTAL:__________________________$7,645.

Using FCP-HD in the PBook, capture footage from camera on the fly via Firewire into PBook's built-in FW400/800 bus - into FCP-HD - writing to a two disk RAID array of 200GB drives connected to PBook via CardBus FW400/800 adapter. This way camera and drives never share a FW bus, and the write speeds of the target disks could have more headroom in a RAID array.

Would it work? Would YOU trust such a set-up? What would be the approximate run time @ 1080p/24fps DVC100 for 200GB (although disks get slower as they fill up, so estimate based on 150GB top be safe)?

For multiple camera event work, this would seem to be a cheap way to have a full def HD rig that can run for a decent amount of time. Or maybe I'm doing some wishful thinking?! I only ask because I use a similar rig for acquiring 5.1 surround sound @192k/24 bit rates, and BareFeats.com lists CardBus FW800 cards as being as fast or faster than the stock FW800 buses in a PBook.

Bart
 
Fellas,

None of you probably know me since I rarely post on here. When the DVX100 came out I was like "Oh how cool!". When the Sony Hi Def came out I was like, "Neat!". Now that I'm reading about all the features this cam has to offer I'm nearly drowning in my own drool.

Yeah I know you're scarred for life with that image now. But, I had to tell ya!

Kudos to Panasonic!
 
I have to mention that you may not even need an [extra] laptop - there's a possibility that you can just connect a firewire HDD like the 300GB one from Maxtor and use your laptop what I'd use it for - sound (something like M-Audio FireWire 410 audio interface looks very nice to me; 2 XLR/big jack in-s + a preamp).
And yeah, yesterday when I've read about the camera, I thought I'm gonna break a hole in the ceiling because of extensive jumping of joy. Still trying hard to manage my emotions, hehe. I can't imagine what's going to happen in even 4 years from now!
 
"The camcorder has Firewire and USB2 ports. However, due to its bandwidth limitations, the Fireware connection can only accommodate standard definition video."
Click to expand...

Yeah...this sounds like total BS.

First of All, Firewire (Firewire 400 spec) can transmit 400mbit per second. 4 x the amount needed for the 1080i / 1080p 100mbit stream.

Secondly, Firewire is guaranteed bandwidth, similar to how some internet protocols use QOS (Quality of Service) to reserve and *guarantee* the full load of 400 mbit....UNLIKE USB2, which may or may *not* actually provide you with the full amount stated in the spec.

I don't think there would be bandwith issues of streaming out to an external HD. Sounds like *jibber-jabber* to me!!

~reservoir~
 
reservoir said:
Yeah...this sounds like total BS.


Sounds like *jibber-jabber* to me!!

~reservoir~
Click to expand...

"jibber-jabber"....that's awesome. :) I'm with you resevoir, sounds like jibber-jabber to me too :)
 
SteveO said:
Fellas,

None of you probably know me since I rarely post on here. When the DVX100 came out I was like "Oh how cool!". When the Sony Hi Def came out I was like, "Neat!". Now that I'm reading about all the features this cam has to offer I'm nearly drowning in my own drool.

Yeah I know you're scarred for life with that image now. But, I had to tell ya!

Kudos to Panasonic!
Click to expand...

Yes it's good to talk about it and you will be ok sometime in the 4th quarter!!
 
Tzadekh -

Well, RAID is tricky - usually safer OR faster, but especially in small rigs, not really both. High-speed RAIDs are sometimes less safe than a single drive.... in RAIDS with less than 4 or 5 drives, striping and redundancy are at odds.

Anyway, you really think "embedded controller" sounds better than "leetle tiny computer"?
 
raid safety issues is usually directed to moving platters.. you gotta really be doing something stupid to break a raid SD card array.. The record button will break and your lens will fall off way before your SD card breaks in that kinda enviroment.
 
Bart_Boge said:
Using FCP-HD in the PBook, capture footage from camera on the fly via Firewire into PBook's built-in FW400/800 bus - into FCP-HD - writing to a two disk RAID array of 200GB drives connected to PBook via CardBus FW400/800 adapter. This way camera and drives never share a FW bus, and the write speeds of the target disks could have more headroom in a RAID array. Bart
Click to expand...
Near as I can tell, that would all work fine. But two things: a) we'll have to test it, and b) powerbooks will be more powerful and less expensive by the time the camera comes out, so your price estimates are probably high.
 
fiercecurry said:
a quote from Toms Hardware:
"The camcorder has Firewire and USB2 ports. However, due to its bandwidth limitations, the Fireware connection can only accommodate standard definition video."
Click to expand...
There are many, many errors in that article. I can almost absolutely guarantee you that this statement is just plain wrong, and the firewire will stream the full high-definition signal.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes you can definitely do that. FCP-HD or Avid Express HD could do that, as could a hopefully forthcoming DV(cpro-hd) Rack type program.
Click to expand...

Wow, I specifically asked this question at NAB to a rep and they said "No, we're putting through more data than firewire can handle. HDV is compressed so they can do that via firewire".

When Jan was asked during the event she didn't say "yes", remember? She said that will be solved by 3rd party "partners". Which to me was a great way of saying "not yet, and we're not solving that... but don't you worry - there will be a way to record live somehow."

When I was at the DVrack demo they specifically emphasized they'll be supporting HDV in about a month and didn't say a word about DVCPROHD. I think firewire's the limitation here and HDV can make it, but DVCPROHD can't.

Maybe the Panasonic rep I talked to was stoned or something, but he seemed pretty darn clear about it to me. Maybe you can get Jan to clarify - or perhaps she can post here what the truth is right now.
 
Joelnet,

Someone likely types faster than me... but the deal is: firewire is plenty fast... They could mean something like, "the other parts of the firewire/hdd chain aren't there yet" The interface, the cable, has enough bandwidth, many times over.

brian wells
 
thisiswells said:
Joelnet,

Someone likely types faster than me... but the deal is: firewire is plenty fast... They could mean something like, "the other parts of the firewire/hdd chain aren't there yet" The interface, the cable, has enough bandwidth, many times over.

brian wells
Click to expand...

I hope it's just a software tweaking issue on Panasonic's end because that would be really cool to have. It's possible the rep simply didn't know, but I found it pretty strange when Jan deflected the question and referred to getting help from "partners" at the DVX meeting.
 
firewire can handle a DVCpro-HD stream no problem.. its a fact; its a standard and even with headroom Firewire can handle it no problem. Even USB, with a true data rate around 300 can handle the 1080i stream.

Panasonic already does this guys.. the AJ-HD1200A DVCAM HD deck, can output DVproHD 1080i over firewire.....

Dont know why the big confusion...?
 
Apple FCP-HD already edits DVCPRO-HD over firewire. Firewire's not the problem. And there isn't a problem. They're already talking about a FireStore type of device, which would use either the firewire or the USB2 port, presumably the firewire port.

Didn't make it back to the booth today, but I should be able to get there tomorrow.
 
yes... so.. to sum this up.. and end the debate.. Firewire is not the problem. The only reason that the camera wouldnt output 1080i out of the firewire or USB is if Panasonic for some reason doesn't think it's important enough to implement it.
 
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