Video Quality Issues (Banding, Mud, Static, Etc)

Shawn Storm

Shawn Storm

Active member
Greetings wise DVX users. I realize this topic has been covered in other threads (I have read most of them), but I felt like starting a new thread to share my thoughts.

I am a bit of a video newbie (but fairly experienced photographer). I am very excited to move deeper into the realm of video, which is a big reason I purchased my GH1. I have been playing around with the video functions a bit and also reading many of the posts in this forum. I have not been very happy with the results of my footage so far, especially when I see the beautiful stuff that many of you have created! Here are the issues I am experiencing:

1> Banding. I have owned the camera for about 2 months and have used it a fair amount, but banding is still an issue at higher ISO settings. I haven't yet tried the 24 hour "burn in" that people mention. It does seem like the banding has become less severe with time (or perhaps I am just getting used to it). It is my understanding that the banding is a natural by-product of a CMOS sensor and that it will possibly become less of an issue, but will always be present to some degree at high ISO settings (and under exposed scenes).

2> Mud. I have seen some pretty nasty "mud" in some of my test footage. From what I understand this is an issue with the AVCHD codec and it can be minimized by keeping movement as smooth as possible? It still seems like an issue to me since I am able to get noticeable "mud" using a tripod and a static scene with a subject moving about somewhat normally. For example, I just tried a test where I took a short video of a well lit scene and I moved around a toy in the scene. The camera was on a tripod. The toy created a fair amount of noticeable "mud" and also sometimes left a sort of ghost image where it had just been. Of course the issue was worse the more erratic the toy was moved about. Does this mean that I should simply avoid any subject that isn't moving smoothly about the scene? That seems a bit limiting. :) I also notice that "mud" doesn't seem present when shooting in Motion JPEG mode.

3> Static. I am not sure if "static" is the correct technical term, but I am not sure how to describe it otherwise. This seems to be very noticeable when shooting in Motion JPEG mode, and less so when using AVCHD (although I still see it). It also seems to correlate to ISO settings (it gets worse with higher ISO). I see it more in low light areas of a scene, but if I look carefully enough I can see it across the whole image. This is something that I haven't seen discussed in this forum and it is bothering me more than the "mud" or the banding. :)

I assume that the best practice to avoid all of the above issues is to have ample lighting, never go above 400 ISO, use a tripod or steady cam, and avoid shooting subjects that move about erratically. I also assume that as I get more experience I will be able to hone my shooting skills to avoid these various issues.

I am also wondering about whether to use Motion JPEG or AVCHD. Honestly, I don't have a choice at the moment because none of my software will edit the AVCHD format (I have a Mac with iLife '08). The main downside of the Motion JPEG format seems to be the "static" that I refer to above, although I have seen some strange quality issues in certain scene types. I assume the advantage to using AVCHD is the smaller size, ability to do 60 fps and 24 fps in 1080. Do any of you use just Motion JPEG? Do any of you never use Motion JPEG and have a reason to avoid it?

Interestingly, I compared identical footage of my GH1 with footage taken with my Panasonic LX3 (basic point and shoot camera). The LX3 didn't have all the issues that are present with the GH1 (except it did have some "static", but less noticeable). Of course the image quality with the LX3 footage is not nearly as nice as the GH1 and it lacks any form of manual control.

I used to have a basic low quality camcorder and I don't remember ever having so many challenges. Of course the quality wasn't great, but it was consistent. It is tempting to give up trying to use the GH1 for video and go back to a basic camcorder, but after seeing some of the amazing videos that you folks have produced I want to stick with it and overcome the challenges that have come up so far.

Thanks for reading. Responses are appreciated (especially in regards to the "static" and the pros/cons of Motion JPEG vs. AVCHD.

-shawn-
 
There are many ways to produce bad footage with a camera that gives you manual control like the GH1 and only a few ways to produce good footage in any given situation. If you want specific advice, please post the original footage along with the exact settings that you used. You could also be experiencing a playback issue... How are you playing your footage?
 
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Michael Pappas
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I think the banding and "mud" has been covered in enough other threads that I don't need to post examples (there are plenty of examples posted all over this forum). I would be happy to share a clip that demonstrates the "static" that I am talking about. Here is a link to the original .MOV (with sound removed) on my website (sorry - I don't have a youtube or vimeo account). The effect is most noticeable in the shadow areas. My main question is if this is normal, and what it is called exactly.

http://www.lovespiral.com/video/static.mov

PappasArts - Yep, I am riding the DVX User merry-go-round. However, it says "For children 2-7 years" and I think I am in trouble because I am still less than a year old (in video experience). Does that mean I shouldn't even be posting messages yet?? :)

-s-
 
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noirist said:
There are many ways to produce bad footage with a camera that gives you manual control like the GH1 and only a few ways to produce good footage in any given situation. If you want specific advice, please post the original footage along with the exact settings that you used. You could also be experiencing a playback issue... How are you playing your footage?
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Whoops - forgot to mention settings. The sample I provided is at 1600 ISO, f4.5, 20mm (kit lens), 1/30 shutter, "smooth" setting. Full manual controls. Motion JPEG HD.

I know the 1600 ISO is making the issues worse, but I find the issues are present at most ISO settings (I provided the 1600 ISO sample so people could clearly see what I am talking about). I sometimes even notice the "static" at 100 ISO in well lit situations (such as outdoors on a bright day). Is this a Motion JPEG issue? (Doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with AVCHD.

I totally agree that there are many ways to produce bad footage with a camera that has full manual controls. The same could be said for still photography. I am sure that many of my issues are due to my lack of experience and understanding, which is why I am asking questions in this forum! :)

One of you expert GH1 users needs to write a "Dummy's guide to shooting video with the GH1". I will be the first in line to buy it and it might help avoid newbies such as myself from asking silly questions.

-s-
 
did you jot down your settings?

that mov files is nothing but noise. iso too high, slow kit lens, probably too high of a shutter speed. but really not telling unless you provide some extra details behind that .mov file

edit: okay, 1600, yeah, way to high. no reason. hell even an 800 iso would be too high for that amount of light. slow lens. get faster glass. since you're new shooting, just about any camera on the market is going to yield horrible results with iso that high.

what are you trying to point out? what part of the image do you not like? the problem is mainly the high 1600 iso
this all stems back to proper exposure. look at the meter. is it dead center? if it's too far to the left, you're just going to have to add more light or get faster glass.
 
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The banding goes away with properly exposed footage, and as long as it isn't on a white wall, I don't even mind a little bit of it.

Mud seems only linked to movement. It sounds like you're fairly new, how good is your tripod, and how fast are you really panning? I've lost some detail in the jungle, but the only time I saw a real break-down was on an extremely fast turn and tilt on a steadicam. Try the 720p mode (in AVCHD, also) if you've got a lot of motion.

The ghosting you are describing in the mud section is a stumper. Have you properly removed pulldown on your footage?

What you call static is video noise, apparently from the really high ISO's you are using. Don't go above 400, or 640 in a pinch, or your footage will look pretty awful. You need more light and/or faster lenses.

As fairly new to the world of film and video, but hungry for more, I actually kind of like the challenges and learning curve inherent in a GH1, but there is no doubt a little consumer HD job like the HFS100 delivers consistent, amazing footage at the press of a button with less effort. The only sacrifice is the low-light, shallow dof, and a certain bokeh (maybe, or I'm hallucinating) to the GH1 image.
 
Since you're shooting in 720p30 MJPEG you won't have any pulldown issues. I see a lot of noise in your footage because there isn't enough light and your iso is so high. If you switch to manual focus and manual exposure mode in creative movie mode, you can lower the shutter speed from 1/30 to 1/8 which will let you lower the iso from 1600 to 400 which should get you a cleaner picture but will blur your moving reflection. Some other solutions are: widen the lens to 18mm at f4.0 to get a bit more light, add another light source, or get a faster lens (eg., the 20mm f1.7).

In any event, this is most definitely NOT a problem with the GH1... This problem is inherent to filming in low light situations because every camera will have this problem to varying degrees and the GH1 less than most. The LX3 does well in this situation because it has a much faster lens (f2.0) than your f4.5 at 20mm kit lens so it can shoot at a much lower sensitivity. I'm guessing the LX3 would shoot that scene with 1/30 shutter and 400 ISO and the GH1 with the 20mm f1.7 lens would shoot it at 1/30 shutter and 160 ISO.

I'd also recommend that you set a custom WB to get rid of the yellow cast in your movie.

And you could try shooting the same scene using 720p60 AVCHD. I shot some similar scenes under similar lighting and I think the AVCHD version (720p60) looks better than the MJPEG version (720p30). Of course the 1080p24 looks the best but then you can't use less than 1/30 shutter.
 
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Shawn Storm said:
PappasArts - Yep, I am riding the DVX User merry-go-round. However, it says "For children 2-7 years" and I think I am in trouble because I am still less than a year old (in video experience). Does that mean I shouldn't even be posting messages yet?? :)

-s-
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Naaa, you can ride with all of us! Glad you have a sense of humor; that makes you more of a DVXusernite.


I looked at your clip. With Jpeg compression; you must turn down detail and contrast to -2. This works best with Jpeg whether it's stills or video...

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Another thing to think about down the road... What were your film mode settings (contrast, sharpness, saturation, noise reduction)?
 
Shawn Storm said:
I think the banding and "mud" has been covered in enough other threads that I don't need to post examples (there are plenty of examples posted all over this forum). I would be happy to share a clip that demonstrates the "static" that I am talking about. Here is a link to the original .MOV (with sound removed) on my website (sorry - I don't have a youtube or vimeo account). The effect is most noticeable in the shadow areas. My main question is if this is normal, and what it is called exactly.

http://www.lovespiral.com/video/static.mov

PappasArts - Yep, I am riding the DVX User merry-go-round. However, it says "For children 2-7 years" and I think I am in trouble because I am still less than a year old (in video experience). Does that mean I shouldn't even be posting messages yet?? :)

-s-
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Not sure if this is the same thing but this was something I brought up some time ago that I believe was a long gop problem. You can see the responses here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=181893

The key is to stay away from static shots of high detail shots. Pine trees on a sunny day for instance seems to do the trick.

One of you expert GH1 users needs to write a "Dummy's guide to shooting video with the GH1". I will be the first in line to buy it and it might help avoid newbies such as myself from asking silly questions.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not... I think you are reading it right here. This entire forum has all or most of the info you could want. Least I found that to be the case. Just try doing a search for specific things and you should find what you need. I pretty much read every post when I got my GH1. However there was not so many at that time, but still that is just more info for us. The GH1 is a great camera and I think every camera has weaknesses to work around just like the GH1. Hope that helps!
 
Nitsuj said:
Not sure if this is the same thing but this was something I brought up some time ago that I believe was a long gop problem. You can see the responses here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=181893

The key is to stay away from static shots of high detail shots. Pine trees on a sunny day for instance seems to do the trick.



Believe it or not... I think you are reading it right here. This entire forum has all or most of the info you could want. Least I found that to be the case. Just try doing a search for specific things and you should find what you need. I pretty much read every post when I got my GH1. However there was not so many at that time, but still that is just more info for us. The GH1 is a great camera and I think every camera has weaknesses to work around just like the GH1. Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

those two scenarios are completely different. also he was shooting mjpeg.
 
2> Mud. I have seen some pretty nasty "mud" in some of my test footage. From what I understand this is an issue with the AVCHD codec and it can be minimized by keeping movement as smooth as possible? It still seems like an issue to me since I am able to get noticeable "mud" using a tripod and a static scene with a subject moving about somewhat normally. For example, I just tried a test where I took a short video of a well lit scene and I moved around a toy in the scene. The camera was on a tripod. The toy created a fair amount of noticeable "mud" and also sometimes left a sort of ghost image where it had just been. Of course the issue was worse the more erratic the toy was moved about. Does this mean that I should simply avoid any subject that isn't moving smoothly about the scene? That seems a bit limiting. I also notice that "mud" doesn't seem present when shooting in Motion JPEG mode.
Click to expand...

I read this and should have quoted this. oops.
 
the codec has been known to break up when the camera is static and reds and pinks are moving around. maybe your toy was a red or pink?
 
Hi Folks,

Thanks so much for the great responses. I will respond to all the posts in this message.

Regarding "mud"; unfortunately I already deleted the footage that had the mud in it, otherwise I would post a sample screenshot. I am not overly concerned about this issue yet, I was just surprised to see it so bad in my first AVCHD footage. I will try to figure out how to work around it using good technique and by following the advice in the other posts about mud. If I continue to have issues then I will post samples, etc.

Regarding banding; I will also follow the advice I have seen in this forum (and in this thread) about keeping footage well exposed and sticking to lower ISO settings.

Regarding "static"; it sounds like this is actually called "video noise" and is a normal thing. Obviously it is the most noticeable at high ISO settings. I will attempt to keep my ISO settings low and use faster lenses and better lighting (I do have the 20mm f1.7 pancake by the way). It seems like the Motion JPEG format emphasizes the video noise for some reason, so I will probably end up using the AVCHD modes and/or try out the film settings that have been suggested in this thread (thanks much).

Regarding a "dummy's guide to shooting video with the GH1"; I understand that this forum is a great resource for someone learning to use this camera. However, it can be very time consuming to sort through the thousands of messages. Also, a lot of the discussions here are a bit over my head (I just don't understand all the terminology, etc). It would be so amazingly helpful if someone wrote a small book (or create a website, etc) that gave a well rounded introduction to video (specifically aimed at using the GH1) as well as beginner, intermediate, and some advanced tips of how to get the best results. I will continue to learn and explore this forum, but I can't help but dream. :)

Thanks again for all the helpful responses! I will continue to play around and see if I can overcome the challenges mentioned in this thread. I am looking forward to creating videos that are worthy of sharing with all of you.

-shawn-
 
Ozpeter said:
Some resources -

http://www.hotrodcameras.com/2009/09/07/quickstart-gh1/

http://www.global-dvc.org/PanasonicGH1.asp

http://www.hotrodcameras.com/category/tips-and-tricks/

http://96.30.23.131/showpost.php?p=1736668&postcount=377

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gh1.shtml

(The last one is a review but has a number of handy tips too).
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thanks for those links!
in the first link they say "Adjust the Shutter Speed to 1/50 for [FHD] and 1/125 for [SH] mode." is that a general rule? I always thought 1/125 for the SD Mode is just when you wanna slomo the clip later???
Can somebody help me with that? thanks!
 
I would only use 1/125 for the SH mode when intending to use it for slow-mo. If you're using it for 720/60p "reality", definitely stick with 1/60.
 
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