Video equal, will you sell your 7D for a T2i?

[sidjastudios]

Got it, thanks!

How did the GH1 hold up for you? Any major problems? Were Art and Camera screaming all the time without VV during takes, or were they satisfied with picture prior to a take? OR did you guy rig up some sort of a 'video tap' with a cam pointed at the LCD?

And again, big congrats on SXSW!

 

[Ian-T]

I like turtles.

Heh heh...one can film them on DSLRs too.

 

[sidjastudios]

To extend further on what Barry said. I think if you are making short films, music videos or anything for yourself - get a GH1. The features on that cam outshine canon.
(histos, articulated lcd, flange length for FD's etc)
If you are getting odd paid gigs or regular paid gigs, get a 7D, because your client is not going to want to deal with pulldown removal in post.

If you are saying pulldown is a show-stopper, I disagree. With the 7D, you still have to bring it in via ProRes. So either way, you've got time in post to transcode, with the GH1 it's NeoScene (which does the pulldown for you), and with the 7D, it's a conversion to ProRes or some other editable format.

 

[sidjastudios]

redacted

 

[J Davis]

If you are saying pulldown is a show-stopper, I disagree. With the 7D, you still have to bring it in via ProRes. So either way, you've got time in post to transcode, with the GH1 it's NeoScene (which does the pulldown for you), and with the 7D, it's a conversion to ProRes or some other editable format.

If you understand the intricacies of post then of course its no different. But nearly every producer I've shot for doesn't. Nearly every client doesn't. And by the time they hand it off to their editor the chinese whispers effect happens and whatever you've told them gets relayed inaccurately.

Speaking of which - plenty of times I'm on an editing job where I'm handed pre-edited media and someone left pull down in there. Not everyone in the chain of people who will touch the media cares as much about the project as you.

 

[sidjastudios]

If you understand the intricacies of post then of course its no different. But nearly every producer I've shot for doesn't. Nearly every client doesn't. And by the time they hand it off to their editor the chinese whispers effect happens and whatever you've told them gets relayed inaccurately.

Speaking of which - plenty of times I'm on an editing job where I'm handed pre-edited media and someone left pull down in there. Not everyone in the chain of people who will touch the media cares as much about the project as you.

I guess my only point is that if pulldown is the deciding factor, which you seem to be saying it is, I couldn't disagree more. Any professional editor will know exactly what to do with pulldown.

 

[Kholi]

Y'know what's crazy funny about all of this?

Barry gets his head rammed into e-doors for making this subject as clear to understand as possible... yet he and Jack are the only ones in this thread that have a DSLR short going to SXSW
Where's the material from all of the Blind Pro DSLR supporters????

 

[Ryan Farnes]

Y'know what's crazy funny about all of this?

Barry gets his head rammed into e-doors for making this subject as clear to understand as possible... yet he and Jack are the only ones in this thread that have a DSLR short going to Slamdance.

Where's the material from all of the Blind Pro DSLR supporters????

Would that be a paradox?

 

[sidjastudios]

Y'know what's crazy funny about all of this?

Barry gets his head rammed into e-doors for making this subject as clear to understand as possible... yet he and Jack are the only ones in this thread that have a DSLR short going to Slamdance.

Where's the material from all of the Blind Pro DSLR supporters????

LOL...great point!



(Don't you mean SXSW?)

 

[Kholi]

lol...great point!



(don't you mean sxsw?)

.yes.i.just.ate.a.handful.of.sugar!sorry

 

[sidjastudios]

.yes.i.just.ate.a.handful.of.sugar!sorry

LOL! no prob.

The bottom line is this: A camera does not make a film, people do. If you have skills, you can make a great film with ANY camera. If you don't have skills, we could give you a Panavision tomorrow, and you'd make crap that no one would want to watch.

 

[Barry_Green]

How did the GH1 hold up for you?

It was fine, footage is stellar (thanks to Vincent Pascoe).

Any major problems?

Only real problem was the inability to monitor. That was inconvenient. Didn't stop us from doing a big booming crane move (you'll see it in Vincent's reel, with the amublance and all that stuff). But we had to position a few people around the arc so they could keep an eye on the angled LCD.

So, seriously -- working with an SLR is ridiculous, but hey, if it's all you've got (or, you're like us, you just want to push it to see what it can do) then you can usually work around things. But what you save in money, you will spend in time, hassle, jerry-rigging, finagling, whittling, scotch tape and glue.

Well, actually, there was one segment that was a major problem, we rigged up a car rig to get some driving shots and the jello made it useless; Jack had to re-shoot that using greenscreen outside a stationary car.

Were Art and Camera screaming all the time without VV during takes, or were they satisfied with picture prior to a take?

If we actually had the budget to have an art department, and a camera department, then there's no way in hell I would have shot on a DSLR. The camera department was Vincent. The art department was ... well, I guess Jack.

There were many fine DVXUsers working on this, but basically for camera ops, DP, and pulling focus, that part of it was a one-man-band, Vincent. We did occasionally try to get someone to pull focus but it was silly because the SLR doesn't even have a locking pin to keep it pointed straight on the tripod, so as soon as you added any lateral torque in the way of a follow focus, you ended up with the SLR pointed the wrong way on the tripod plate. It was kind of ridiculous.

Actually, DVXUser Drew Ott did a stint at one point on camera, not on the SXSW film but on the other one; he flew it on a Steadicam Merlin. You'd have to ask Drew about the experience; I seem to recall him being okay with how it turned out but not really all that thrilled about trying to get the shot with a featherweight camera that changes balance as you change focal length on the lens.

OR did you guy rig up some sort of a 'video tap' with a cam pointed at the LCD?

We tried it, it was more hassle than it was worth.

And again, big congrats on SXSW!

Thanks, but it all has to go to Jack. My role in this particular production was mostly that of "checkbook"...

 

[Barry_Green]

The bottom line is this: A camera does not make a film, people do. If you have skills, you can make a great film with ANY camera. If you don't have skills, we could give you a Panavision tomorrow, and you'd make crap that no one would want to watch.

That is true. However, budget will still dictate the usability of these products; if you have no budget, you pretty much have no choice, so you go with what you can get. It all comes down to whether you're willing to work around the limitations. But if you can squeeze out a budget, you shoot on something better.

 

[Barry_Green]

Y'know what's crazy funny about all of this?

Barry gets his head rammed into e-doors for making this subject as clear to understand as possible... yet he and Jack are the only ones in this thread that have a DSLR short going to SXSW

Heh. I'm also an invited speaker on a panel, giving an hour presentation on DSLRs there. I expect that I will get my head rammed into REAL doors... :shocked:

 

[Barry_Green]

Ryan, seriously -- you have been responsible for more LOL's than just about any poster in recent memory. You're on fire!

 

[sidjastudios]

It was fine, footage is stellar (thanks to Vincent Pascoe).

I took a look at his reel on Vimeo, truly outstanding work!

Only real problem was the inability to monitor.

This seems to me like THE major failing of the GH1. I personally feel that the codec/pulldown issue has been blown out of proportion (not that it's not a problem - just that it's exaggerated), but no live monitoring IS a pretty big deal.

So, seriously -- working with an SLR is ridiculous, but hey, if it's all you've got (or, you're like us, you just want to push it to see what it can do) then you can usually work around things. But what you save in money, you will spend in time, hassle, jerry-rigging, finagling, whittling, scotch tape and glue.

LOL @ jerry-rigging, scotch tape and (my favorite) WHITTLING (LOL!) --- but that's the way this business has ALWAYS been!

...does anyone have a C47? :laugh:

SLR doesn't even have a locking pin to keep it pointed straight on the tripod

Now that IS a problem...and another request to add for v2 of these cams.

I seem to recall him being okay with how it turned out but not really all that thrilled about trying to get the shot with a featherweight camera that changes balance as you change focal length on the lens.

LOL, understandably so. "I just spend how long getting this balanced, and now you want the 85mm on there? umm.....NO."

Thanks, but it all has to go to Jack. My role in this particular production was mostly that of "checkbook"...

While I appreciate your modesty, I have Directed enough to know that a great Producer makes a HUGE difference in the finished project, and I NEVER discount the checkbook! So, kudos all around!

 

[sidjastudios]

So you've seen my work.

LOL! No I haven't, but if you can laugh at yourself like that, it can't be too bad!

 

[squig]

Faith? Where does faith enter into it? I'm looking at history. I'm watching trends, looking at what companies actually do. Nikon doesn't make video cameras. The very most you can expect from Nikon is the same DSLR stuff that they're already doing; Nikon makes still cameras, not video cameras. So if you want a still camera with video tacked on, yes Nikon will be an option.

I agree with you Barry that Panasonic is the most likely to bring out a video form factor 4/3 sensor camera but I think Nikon is the wild card here. The sensor in the D3s is by far the best of the bunch in terms of low light sensitivity and filmic looking grain/noise. Nikon brought us 24p DSLRs first. It took them a while to catch on but they've finally brought manual controls to the D3s. Nikon did make cine cameras a long time ago. Yes they will only make DSLRs with added on video but that's exactly what I want a new improved brain to add to my cine rig and it will be an incredible camera once they sort out the debayering and codec issues.

In the next 12 months I predict we'll see these options-
S35 scarlet around $10,000 will necessary options
Panasonic 4/3 pro video camera HVX price range? very tempting if it has a high bit-rate non long-gop codec.
Nikon D4 1080p H.264 $5000
Nikon D900 $2500
Canon 5DMKIII $2500
and a D90 replacement and GH2 at the lower end

 

[sidjastudios]

That is true. However, budget will still dictate the usability of these products; if you have no budget, you pretty much have no choice, so you go with what you can get. It all comes down to whether you're willing to work around the limitations. But if you can squeeze out a budget, you shoot on something better.

Absolutely true! At least for the most part... I guess there are a few cases where I can see wanting to use these even when I have a budget:

1) Extremely low light.
2) Extremely tight spot that no normal 'A cam' will fit
3) Incognito work

 

[J Davis]

I guess my only point is that if pulldown is the deciding factor, which you seem to be saying it is, I couldn't disagree more. Any professional editor will know exactly what to do with pulldown.

Yes that is true and I agree, but realize that not every editor who says they are professional are professional and as I said before, not everyone in the chain of people who will touch the media cares as much about the project as you.

Given all of that, 9 times out of 10, a producer will hire a shooter with a 7D over a GH1 which was my original point. Don't believe me? ask kholi about renting out 7D's
(he was saying somethign silmilar in a thread yesterday)
The only exception would be if the GH1 shooter had an awesome reel.

edit: actually my original point was, if u are doing stuff for yourself, get a GH1 because its a better cam, if you are getting gigs, get a 7D, beleive me as I've owned both.