Varicam Mini ?

DLD said:
F65 was not a big seller but $65,000 x 1,000 units is still a nice chunk of change.

Obviously, ARRI Alexa was a runaway success. I figure 40,000-50,000 of its various iterations have been sold since 2011. of course, given how much Amira borrows from Alexa, Amira's costs were already recouped before that camera even became available.

On the other hand, Varicam LT probably had to rescue the Varicam Pure R&D.

Edit - ARRI group has revenues of about $400M annually. Let's assume 80% of that is camera sales (the rest lenses, lighting, etc). Let's assume, an average ARRI camera goes for ~ $60,000. That would make for around 5,000-6,000 units per year.
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Mitch Gross said:
Trust me your math is way off. And earlier I said 1000X, not 100x. And I was being generous. Oursis a far smaller niche industry than you might think. And ARRI makes a lot of money on stuff other than Alexa.
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I was thinking the same thing. 100 F65's in the wild(world) sorta shocks me, but you did say you were being generous. ; ) And weren't they closer to six figures with recorder and VF? I was thinking even with one of my more "pedestrian" VariCams(tape or P2), there are probably only a few thousand copies(maybe?! I'm possibly being generous) in the world.

Alexas can easily go over $100,000, Minis START at $45K and Amira's from $35K-$40K+. I'd also doubt there are 40K-50K Alexas out there. That is a LOT of cameras.

I'm not picking on DLD, but I do agree with Mitch, that, especially at the higher levels, copies of "our" cameras in the wild are very, very small, relatively speaking.
 
The original 2/3" VariCam from the 2000s (shall we say turn of the century?) were quite popular and there were many thousands made. But to put things in perspective here, the F35 - for which the one remaining active forum is here on DVXuser - only had a couple hundred copies made and that was considered a great success for Sony. Of course the complete kit with recorder also pushed a cool quarter million back in the day, but what's a few bucks got to do with anything?

To put numbers in perspective a bit, a certain prosumer ($3K-$7K range) camera model I know about (and this was from before I joined Panasonic and is not one of their cameras) was considered a great success having sold about 18,000 units over the course of seven years. And the breakaway hit Canon 5DM2 was blasting through that many in a month during its heyday (mostly to stills photographers -- remember them?). So if you're a camera maker you have to ask yourself "Self, what kinds of cameras do people seem to want? They like to talk about certain features but what do they really buy?"

Y'all can sometimes be your own worst enemies. Just sayin'. :)

Don't worry, I and others fight the good fight for smart design and features, but it takes years to develop a camera and there are many considerations along the way.
 
Retrospective said:
Mitch if you can somehow make the Varicam LT get closer to the price of C300 MKII then it would be a more attractive option.

Not talking barebone Varicam LT since you still need to "kit" it up to be functional like the C300 MKII.
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Did you know that we're just about to end a deal with a $4500 instant rebate on the VariCam LT? It basically gives you the viewfinder for free. I think a similar deal is available in Canada. That's a pretty hefty savings.

Anyone interested best contact me ASAP. We were supposed to end it at the beginning of this month but extended through this week.
 
morgan_moore said:
Yep defo. Mitch Gross assured the Internet that it is coming.
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haha

morgan_moore said:
My S35 cameras are a constant paranoia of breaking some fiddlesome little bit.
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In general terms the camera weight corresponds to its robustness, so I guess there's a fine line how heavy you want to make something vs how tough. Now I know 100% Im not telling you anything new here, but its a formula that adds weight to the LT. Should there be a mini like offering it would be smaller, but I'd say I wouldnt want it to be LT level materials. I'd prefer tough buttons but lighter body material so then I can throw it on a light weight gimbal, car mount etc etc.

morgan_moore said:
It seems that at some point it became acceptable to have product like the C300 with its crazy Christmas tree EVF configuration and fiddly little bits to break off ruining your shoot which is bad news if you are in Burundi.
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As was the case for me, although I was in Sydney and Canon had me fixed up within a few days, but yes - LCD was snapped off from a knock.

Retrospective said:
Mitch if you can somehow make the Varicam LT get closer to the price of C300 MKII then it would be a more attractive option.

Not talking barebone Varicam LT since you still need to "kit" it up to be functional like the C300 MKII.
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I have no doubt Pana would sell more at that pricing, I guess it's up to Panasonic how they price and see where their opportunities are vs R&D costs etc etc, however my opinion is the Varicam is offering a lot more. Now that value will vary person to person from their own perspective, to me it's quite a big differential in real world outcomes. I did shoot on the C300MKII for almost two weeks and have shot with it a few times since then as well. Am yet to see a better EVF than the one on the LT. I love using it.
 
I was being a bit sarcastic but figured F65 had to be above 1000 worldwide. I do remember when any decent camera with eng lens was going to be not less than $20,000, and that was with the low end lens. $10,000 to $18,000 for the good lenses which put you past $30k. And we had 5 on the truck, one more for single camera, and three lesser cameras in the studio.

How about this for a question, how many LT are going to TV stations? Never going to replace what is now being used for the common news cameras, but by price not that much different from the other Panasonic ENG cameras that many are using for everything from news to commercials. Our (essentially) two local stations are split, one uses the same JVC that I have at school, the other uses one of the newer Panasonic cameras and still on P2. They just got them about a year ago when the owners finally started spending again, so not sure of the model. That said the JVC cost us $8k with lens, and I bet the other station paid $10k to $12k per camera for the Panasonic's.
 
Run&Gun said:
.... Alexas can easily go over $100,000, Minis START at $45K and Amira's from $35K-$40K+. I'd also doubt there are 40K-50K Alexas out there. That is a LOT of cameras.

I'm not picking on DLD, but I do agree with Mitch, that, especially at the higher levels, copies of "our" cameras in the wild are very, very small, relatively speaking.
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Well, Mitch is an insider with both Panasonic and Abel Cine - the latter of which is arguably far more pertinent to the discussion at hand - and I was eye-balling the sales off the quoted ARRI financials.

In any case, Alexa was first announced seven years ago and it's a big world out there outside the US/Western Europe.
 
The af100 seemed like a tough little camera - to my memory crippled by a thin codec but quite well made - gh5 internal in that body could be nice - probably with minimal development costs I guess all the chassis tooling still exists
 
Retrospective said:
Mitch if you can somehow make the Varicam LT get closer to the price of C300 MKII then it would be a more attractive option.

Not talking barebone Varicam LT since you still need to "kit" it up to be functional like the C300 MKII.
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The Varicam LT is a super cheap camera .... if you compare it to the right one. It's basically a 4k Alexa with 5000iso capabilities. If you want Arri's colors it will save you tens of thousands of $.
The Varicams are growing more popular fast, it took time but more and more shows use them or switch to them, and all the reviews and tests praise them. I don't see why Panasonic would change anything pricewise now. Panasonic wants to compete with Arri and Red, even the S35 Scarlet-W is more expensive than a LT at the end of the day with all the modules and stuffs. "Sun records" was shot on the LT, "Orange is the new black" used the exact same codec you find in the LT, the LT is not a crippled V35, it's a crazy camera at a crazy low price.
 
Alex Roz said:
The Varicam LT is a super cheap camera .... if you compare it to the right one. It's basically a 4k Alexa with 5000iso capabilities. If you want Arri's colors it will save you tens of thousands of $.
The Varicams are growing more popular fast, it took time but more and more shows use them or switch to them, and all the reviews and tests praise them. I don't see why Panasonic would change anything pricewise now. Panasonic wants to compete with Arri and Red, even the S35 Scarlet-W is more expensive than a LT at the end of the day with all the modules and stuffs. "Sun records" was shot on the LT, "Orange is the new black" used the exact same codec you find in the LT, the LT is not a crippled V35, it's a crazy camera at a crazy low price.
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Lets Put things into perspective here, the VAricam LT if Closer to the canon C700 than the C300 MKii, It's delivering C700 performance for C300 price With An ARRI Alev level 4K image. So in the real world it's actual a Value priced camera.

Now a sub 10K s35mm dual ISO Panasonic would be a thing of beauty, great Companion camera for those of US shoot the LT as an A Camera but untill then I'll continue to strap a PL mount and an external Record to a GH5 and put it in places the Varicam LT can't go
 
Mitch Gross said:
Did you know that we're just about to end a deal with a $4500 instant rebate on the VariCam LT? It basically gives you the viewfinder for free. I think a similar deal is available in Canada. That's a pretty hefty savings.

Anyone interested best contact me ASAP. We were supposed to end it at the beginning of this month but extended through this week.
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Mitch I tought that Promo ended MArch 31st???.... was it extended? I think a mate of mine might want to take advantage if it was extended
 
Mitch Gross said:
Did you know that we're just about to end a deal with a $4500 instant rebate on the VariCam LT? It basically gives you the viewfinder for free. I think a similar deal is available in Canada. That's a pretty hefty savings.

Anyone interested best contact me ASAP. We were supposed to end it at the beginning of this month but extended through this week.
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You also rep Panasonic Canada?

C300 MKII in Canada is still pretty competitive at $15K with their discount going on. The Varicam LT with the VF kit with the $4500 instant rebate is still about $8500 difference.


Alex Roz said:
The Varicam LT is a super cheap camera .... if you compare it to the right one. It's basically a 4k Alexa with 5000iso capabilities. If you want Arri's colors it will save you tens of thousands of $.
The Varicams are growing more popular fast, it took time but more and more shows use them or switch to them, and all the reviews and tests praise them. I don't see why Panasonic would change anything pricewise now. Panasonic wants to compete with Arri and Red, even the S35 Scarlet-W is more expensive than a LT at the end of the day with all the modules and stuffs. "Sun records" was shot on the LT, "Orange is the new black" used the exact same codec you find in the LT, the LT is not a crippled V35, it's a crazy camera at a crazy low price.
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If Panasonic is targeting the Alexas, Reds and C700 with the Varicam LT then Panasonic has nothing under until you reach the GH5, DVX200, etc...which Im not looking for.
 
morgan_moore said:
If your proxies don't have all four audio tracks then.. well they are not good for laying down the base edit.
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My experience with the LT has been great so far, but this is definitely my biggest pet peeve. Premiere won't recognize the proxies because they only have 2 audio channels. Having them recorded in camera is such a great time-saving feature, but as a Premiere editor, I can't use them. Very frustrating. Hoping this changes in an update on either end at some point...Either Premiere accepts inconsistent audio or the LT adds 2 channels to it's proxies.

As for a Varicam "Mini", it seems like people are basically clamoring for the LT feature-set and image in a smaller, cheaper box? Wouldn't that kill the LT's market? Because why buy the LT when you can have the little brother that does exactly the same thing for less?* Seems to me that if Panasonic did come out with a smaller version, it would have to be limited in some way. Maybe no 60p in 4k, or only offering 8-bit recording internally. An 8-bit 4k C100/FS5 competitor would make the most sense.

*Disclaimer: Having recently bought an LT, it's hard for me to root for this, haha.
 
It's not like there's any empty space inside the VariCam LT. The shape may appear a little chunky, but it's actually a fairly petite camera. o slim it down would definitely mean to eliminate something. The VariCam LT is also built like a tank -- very rugged. That would have to be trimmed as well to reduce weight.
 
The "mini" I outlined would be mft and probably not 4k - it is my personal suspicion that 4k from a small sensor is not wise.
It would probably also lose HFR vs the LT

8bit makes no sense as it is rubbish and vari cams are not about rubbish.

A different camera therefore.
 
morgan_moore said:
The "mini" I outlined would be mft and probably not 4k - it is my personal suspicion that 4k from a small sensor is not wise...
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A "not 4K" pro camera is a no-go at this day and age.

My take is that a "mini LT" is not doable but a "maxi GH5" may be. But that almost brings one back to AF200. LT.
 
I can confirm that the current Varicam rebates are ending at the end of this month (April.)

Hot Rod Cameras in California has been very busy locking in this deal for clients who are waiting until next week (NAB) to make a decision if they are buying a Varicam LT now to take advantage of the big discount while it lasts. This is always the strangest week of the year for camera sales... generally speaking no one is buying anything major, so if you know what you want and know who to talk to (in this case, me) you can score the best deal ever on gear. Yes even better than when people try to buy between Christmas and New Years Eve.
 
Forget about the low end. The Panasonic brand is not going to be perceived as on the same level as Arri and Red by making cheaper cameras that will go on lower budget shoots with potentially less talented people behind them producing less than ideal images!

They should release a 65mm Varicam halo product for the range.
 
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