Varicam Mini ?

TheDingo said:
So how would this "Varicam Mini" be different compared to a Canon C300 Mk2 or Sony FS7 Mk2 ? ( what would it bring to the table that these two cameras don't already ? )
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As mitch said.. a proper solid image.. which I think comes from 444, not to mention the 300 and fs7 are riddled with design flaws ergonomically, and dont shoot to two cards.



Mitch Gross said:
We can blabber about feature sets all we want, but in the end it is the pictures these cameras make that matter.
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Yes and no. If it takes 30s to engage HFR you miss the shot. If your proxies don't have all four audio tracks then.. well they are not good for laying down the base edit.


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IMO none of the current Sub 15k motion cameras have a true adult spec.

This may sound arrogant or demanding or something.. but my stills camera is this and it is a tool I trust
Nikon D3, launch 2007, raw images, S35, two cards, robust build. lightening AF (!) No joke. 12FPS, Ive been waiting for the 25FPS version for a decade now.
nikon.jpg
 
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Damn! Mitch Gross on Panasonic. Congrats Mitch as you're one of the best company on-line communcations presence that I've had the pleasure of dealing with.
 
Eh, the exact type of a camera with these exact specs seems too narrow of a niche. And if one needs everything prescribed, s/he can rent/buy Alexa Mini. Meanwhile, GH5 can accomplish most of what was demanded for a little over $2,000 (for audio attachment only) or around $3,500 (an external recorder and audio).
 
morgan_moore said:
Yes and no. If it takes 30s to engage HFR you miss the shot. If your proxies don't have all four audio tracks then.. well they are not good for laying down the base edit.
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Fair enough, and of course a camera design must be functional. But I would argue that quality images be the first measure. If the picture is underwhelming then the rest is secondary. Of course in a newsgathering or docco situation there are other considerations, but at a certain point quite early on the list a good looking picture becomes paramount.

The question posed was what would be the point of Panasonic creating a camera very similar in specs to other manufacturers. My answer was that if this were to happen, the value of the Panasonic camera would be in the quality of the image.
 
Mitch Gross said:
The question posed was what would be the point of Panasonic creating a camera very similar in specs to other manufacturers. My answer was that if this were to happen, the value of the Panasonic camera would be in the quality of the image.
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I can completely agree that from my limited experience the Vari image seems to out-please the FS7 image wise. So there is a hole for better image, but also a market hole, IMO, for a camera that is robust ergonomically sound.. and ideally all together :)
 
DLD said:
Eh, the exact type of a camera with these exact specs seems too narrow of a niche. And if one needs everything prescribed, s/he can rent/buy Alexa Mini. Meanwhile, GH5 can accomplish most of what was demanded for a little over $2,000 (for audio attachment only) or around $3,500 (an external recorder and audio).
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Personally I think the alexa mini is too fat, and also S35 zooms of reasonable range are too large. I feel an MFT zoom could present a good compromise for the shooter on the move.

The alexa is not robust.. because the periferies are attached with flimsy wires.

The GH5 has awful ergonomics and attaching the XLR unit via the hot shoe? .. well hot shoes are designed to break.

Market wise. Who knows. It seems to me that most professional operators would be frustrated with the current crop of cameras that appear designed by interns and released in pre beta stage and then discontinued at the point where they reach beta.
 
Morgan, while I understand and respect your issues with current camera offerings, you must know that you are swimming against the tide. No company is going to design a camera that does not appeal to volume sales. And I question if enough people share your views and are willing to pay to get the design you prefer. The economics need to be there for investing in developing such products. There are a lot of things I'd like to have, but realistically no one is gonna make most of them for me.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Morgan, while I understand and respect your issues with current camera offerings, you must know that you are swimming against the tide. No company is going to design a camera that does not appeal to volume sales. And I question if enough people share your views and are willing to pay to get the design you prefer. The economics need to be there for investing in developing such products. There are a lot of things I'd like to have, but realistically no one is gonna make most of them for me.
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Well it seems to me pretty simple, 2/3 cameras are bricks that have been schlepped around the world, pro stills DSLRs are bricks that have been slepped around the world. Even my EX1 is to my suprise still in one piece.

Modular designs that just work.

My S35 cameras are a constant paranoia of breaking some fiddlesome little bit.

It seems that at some point it became acceptable to have product like the C300 with its crazy Christmas tree EVF configuration and fiddly little bits to break off ruining your shoot which is bad news if you are in Burundi.

Considering how technology has moved on since the beta era it would seem entirely possible sensible and marketable to produce a camera with the physical robustness of a beta cam but scaled down. I guess an MFT sensor would offer a great compromise of a low mass zoom with the option to swap out to .95 primes for a cine look.

Panasonic would seem to be ideally placed to produce such a camera as..

The varicam line (and 2/3 heritage) proves they can make robust, the GH5 line proves they know something about MFT and ramming a lot of tech into a small space.
 
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On a side note I work with a drone op who has an DJI inspire. The ease which he can playback/scrub shots to the director ipad is embarrasing to an FS7 owner. I guess he can grab stills, email them, wifi proxy clips to clients and all sort of other 'mordern' stuff that can really make a difference to the production process especially in the 'little clip for facebook' era.
 
What is the annual sales of a V35? How about the LT from market entry to date? I'm guessing that a large part of the price comes down to the (relatively) small number of units sold. How many F65 cameras did Sony really sell? Over 100,000 world wide would surprise. The GH5 will sell a lot of units because it is a "consumer" level product that takes photos and is on the lower side of cost, it also just happens to take good video too, so it hits two sides.

That said, I think there is still room for a high end action camera that could produce pictures at or near the quality of the LT and would make a good companion to Varicam workflows in situations where the camera is not likely to be destroyed (there are other cameras for sacrifice). But as a stripped down, non-operator camera (set and forget) it would need to be fairly lower in price to the LT. And the m43 mount might make sense, or maybe E mount so the image circle will definitely cover the sensor.
 
Greg_E said:
What is the annual sales of a V35? How about the LT from market entry to date? I'm guessing that a large part of the price comes down to the (relatively) small number of units sold. How many F65 cameras did Sony really sell? Over 100,000 world wide would surprise. The GH5 will sell a lot of units because it is a "consumer" level product that takes photos and is on the lower side of cost, it also just happens to take good video too, so it hits two sides.

That said, I think there is still room for a high end action camera that could produce pictures at or near the quality of the LT and would make a good companion to Varicam workflows in situations where the camera is not likely to be destroyed (there are other cameras for sacrifice). But as a stripped down, non-operator camera (set and forget) it would need to be fairly lower in price to the LT. And the m43 mount might make sense, or maybe E mount so the image circle will definitely cover the sensor.
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I'm not going to provide VariCam numbers because, well because it's none of your business. But you're correct when you note that there are different market segments and that higher end models sell far fewer units compared to the lower cost consumer or prosumer models. And if you think Sony sold 100,000 F65 cameras, you have greatly mistaken the scale of the industry by a factor of about 1000x.

There are various trends in the camera market and different segments of the market are going in specific directions. The development of a camera or camera line can take a year or two, so there's more of a steady progression rather than a toss-it-all-to-the-side revamp design. Companies have to be at least a little conservative because the process is like turning an aircraft carrier.

And what makes logical sense to you may not be the way that others feel.
 
Greg_E said:
What is the annual sales of a V35 ?
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I am more interested in what is being shot with the V35 ...

"Anne" (2017- ) : Show written and created by "Breaking Bad" writer Moira Walley-Beckett ( a making of BTS video shows at least two Varicam 35 cameras in action )

"Mary + Jane" ( 2016 ) : with DVX's own Charles Papert as DP

"Orange is the New Black" (2013- ) : Season four switched from the ARRI Alexa to the Varicam 35

"Master of None" ( 2015- ) : Entirely shot with the Varicam 35
 
TheDingo said:
I am more interested in what is being shot with the V35 ...

"Anne" (2017- ) : Show written and created by "Breaking Bad" writer Moira Walley-Beckett ( a making of BTS video shows at least two Varicam 35 cameras in action )

"Mary + Jane" ( 2016 ) : with DVX's own Charles Papert as DP

"Orange is the New Black" (2013- ) : Season four switched from the ARRI Alexa to the Varicam 35

"Master of None" ( 2015- ) : Entirely shot with the Varicam 35
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Yes, and a bunch more as well, including "The OA", "Thirteen Reasons Why" and many more. I'm not free to discuss many of them, but Amazon & Netflix are very much into 4K originated content and they like the look and performance of VariCam.
 
F65 was not a big seller but $65,000 x 1,000 units is still a nice chunk of change.

Obviously, ARRI Alexa was a runaway success. I figure 40,000-50,000 of its various iterations have been sold since 2011. of course, given how much Amira borrows from Alexa, Amira's costs were already recouped before that camera even became available.

On the other hand, Varicam LT probably had to rescue the Varicam Pure R&D.

Edit - ARRI group has revenues of about $400M annually. Let's assume 80% of that is camera sales (the rest lenses, lighting, etc). Let's assume, an average ARRI camera goes for ~ $60,000. That would make for around 5,000-6,000 units per year.
 
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DLD said:
F65 was not a big seller but $65,000 x 1,000 units is still a nice chunk of change.

Obviously, ARRI Alexa was a runaway success. I figure 40,000-50,000 of its various iterations have been sold since 2011. of course, given how much Amira borrows from Alexa, Amira's costs were already recouped before that camera even became available.

On the other hand, Varicam LT probably had to rescue the Varicam Pure R&D.

Edit - ARRI group has revenues of about $400M annually. Let's assume 80% of that is camera sales (the rest lenses, lighting, etc). Let's assume, an average ARRI camera goes for ~ $60,000. That would make for around 5,000-6,000 units per year.
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Trust me your math is way off. And earlier I said 1000X, not 100x. And I was being generous. Oursis a far smaller niche industry than you might think. And ARRI makes a lot of money on stuff other than Alexa.
 
Mitch if you can somehow make the Varicam LT get closer to the price of C300 MKII then it would be a more attractive option.

Not talking barebone Varicam LT since you still need to "kit" it up to be functional like the C300 MKII.
 
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