Varicam Mini ?

Doctor Wu said:
Knowing something about the internal turmoil of what's been going on at Panasonic with their Varicams and managers of that product, I really do hope they get their act together and produce a camera for that now vital "under 10K" segment of the market, or better market / price the LT. The LT does produce a very fine image. It would be nice if it had a locking EF mount option.
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Well Doctor Wu
I'd suggest you get your hand on an LT and actually use it. THE EF mount is a Locking EF mount and has always been. Works much like a PL mount only the other "Locking" Ef mounts. You do not need to turn the Lens you lock the mount
 
DLD said:
However, there's always some overlap. One could, for example, find an essentially the same camera with the various sensor sizes or with different feature sets, something that Canon did (more or less) with the original C100 and C300 and BMD did with the URSA line, etc. And then this becomes a combined engineering and managerial decision.

Now, where are those Panasonic financials?
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Well now that Panasonic is back in the sensor making business I think A new sensor has probably in the works for a few years. I think the SONY approach F5, FS7 & FS5 (although as a former F5 owner the trend of cannibalizing and devaluing a camera I paid $20k for didn't leave me extremely pleased.

To the argument someone made about all the other competition in the sub $10k price point, I'd say this, which one of those are delivering the Varicam Image? Varicam DR?... NONE
People are settling for a lot of these cameras...I'm included in the list of people who were forced to settle until the varicam LT was announced and I put my money down for it and got rid of everything else.

YES I love P2 media it's never failed me since the HVX... but times change and in the Sub $10k price point people are less willing to put down $ for proprietary media. Manufactures have to adapt to that in that price point. Over $15k you should get what you pay for and that s bullet proof media and expect to pay for it P2, SXS, Codex capture drives.

Now back to the camera: There are 3 mainstream cameras delivering the best images (and this is my opinion so lets not turn it to a debate) The Panasonic Varicams, The ARRI cameras, the Sony F65.

So my argument is if there is a sub $10k (or lets say sub $7500, if we're talking fs5 size) that checks all the boxes the sony FS5 does and delivers Panasonic HFR and the varicam Image and dual ISO, Will it sell... I think most would agree YES!

now to address Barry Greens point: I think faced with Panasonic Engineering & reliability versus say the URSA (with the well documented list of issues that stem from the sensor) I think most would put their money into the the Panasonic.

Just one thing, with technology time is of the essence... the current requested feature set, is good for 2017... If I'm being honest It might change in 2 weeks at NAB
 
When I mentioned that my guess would be a smaller LT, I wasn't thinking FS5 sized, I was thinking of something slightly larger than a "common" action camera with the same sensor as the LT and some kind of lens mount. Slightly smaller than an FS5, maybe no viewfinder at all, just an SDI connection(s). Something you could throw on a multicopter, or suction cup mount to the side of a car or motorcycle, etc. Something akin to a Canon ME200F-SH in size and all the LT goodness packed inside.
 
Greg_E said:
When I mentioned that my guess would be a smaller LT, I wasn't thinking FS5 sized, I was thinking of something slightly larger than a "common" action camera with the same sensor as the LT and some kind of lens mount. Slightly smaller than an FS5, maybe no viewfinder at all, just an SDI connection(s). Something you could throw on a multicopter, or suction cup mount to the side of a car or motorcycle, etc. Something akin to a Canon ME200F-SH in size and all the LT goodness packed inside.
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I think a box cam would indeed be a really niche product, the Sony UMC-S3C and Canon ME200F-SH aren't exactly everywhere or flying off the shelves. C-100s and Fs5's are everywhere
 
I'm glad y'all are so interested in Panasonic financials. On the Board are we? I remember when I was at Convergent Design and because a firmware update was late someone wrote me demanding to see the financial sheet of the company because he felt we weren't running the place well. Entitled much?

Anyway, I do like this conversation and wish to do nothing but encourage it. I don't want to quash anyone's ideas as it is interesting feedback & perspective. But I won't say what influence it does or does not have. Panasonic is a large worldwide company and we receive input from many sources. But all ideas are welcome.

BTW, the locking EF lens mount on the VariCam LT is a thing of beauty. As Adam Wilt wrote in his review of the camera for Provideo Coalition, they should all be this way.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I'm glad y'all are so interested in Panasonic financials. On the Board are we? I remember when I was at Convergent Design and because a firmware update was late someone wrote me demanding to see the financial sheet of the company because he felt we weren't running the place well. Entitled much?

Anyway, I do like this conversation and wish to do nothing but encourage it. I don't want to quash anyone's ideas as it is interesting feedback & perspective. But I won't say what influence it does or does not have. Panasonic is a large worldwide company and we receive input from many sources. But all ideas are welcome.

BTW, the locking EF lens mount on the VariCam LT is a thing of beauty. As Adam Wilt wrote in his review of the camera for Provideo Coalition, they should all be this way.
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HAHA...Mitch you of all people know that online anyone with a keyboard is an expert (on everything including a multinational corporations financials)...Not sure how this got to Panny financials. Which are of no interest to me as long as they're making Great Cameras Like the PURE and Varicam LT.

I think Everyone who owns an LT or is considering one should certainly read Adam Wilts article. It's one of the most objective professional reviews yet

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acqui...-panasonic-varicam-lt-4k-lss-cine-camera.html

https://www.provideocoalition.com/panasonic-varicam-lt-review-part-2/

thoroughly addresses the Most important part of any Digital cinema camera: The image

I think the idea of this thread or at least my portion of it is that people would like to see that Varicam LT goodness in a more widely accessible camera (translation cheaper and doesn't use Professional recording media).
The conversation on that topic is great, I think the financials are best left to the accountants...this is DVXuser not the financial times forum

Cheers
 
I'm still waiting for Charles Papert to chime in and say "I thought the Varicam LT was the mini V35." =)

I have two question.

1) After kitting out this hypothetical cannibalized 'varicam mini' wouldn't it be around the same weight if not heavier than a LT? But with a stripped down operating system, fixed lens mount, no view finder, dodgy prosumer media, etc etc. And at the same time possibly devaluing the exclusivity and reputation of the flagship cameras?

2) Could you use a GH5 for an action/crash/drone cam? I haven't used one yet, but I believe it records in some flavor of v-log and might even have similar color science.


I'd love if Panasonic would introduce 4k 444 30fps AVC-Intra on the Varicam LT, and fine tune the rec.709 LUT (many agree it is a little warm).


Great topic by the way.

Cheers, TGIF!
 
sean007davis said:
I think the idea of this thread or at least my portion of it is that people would like to see that Varicam LT goodness in a more widely accessible camera
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I completely agree. The bottom line is that the LT has an amazing image, one which is virtually unrivaled, and many people like myself are probably just hoping there might be some feasible way to put that into a slightly cheaper, slightly smaller package. (Personally, I don't really mind the P2 media because... reliable). I suppose time will tell if we are asking for too much.


Alex Derrick said:
After kitting out this hypothetical cannibalized 'varicam mini' wouldn't it be around the same weight if not heavier than a LT? But with a stripped down operating system, fixed lens mount, no view finder, dodgy prosumer media, etc etc. And at the same time possibly devaluing the exclusivity and reputation of the flagship cameras?
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I think there could be a way to keep a Varicam Mini more slim and powerful, but without other 'Pro' features that are found on the LT. Namely, the Mini could be without the control panel, it could be without the proxy recording, it could trade the 4 channels of audio for 2 (and maybe even include some dedicated audio knobs!). The ability of the V35 and the LT to handle multiple video streams is impressive, but I have to imagine this takes a lot of processing power. What if the Mini did not have the ability to bake in custom LUTs, but only monitor them? I'm no engineer, but these all seem like ways to save weight.

Again, time will tell... and I'll be waiting with crossed fingers.
 
Alex Derrick said:
I'm still waiting for Charles Papert to chime in and say "I thought the Varicam LT was the mini V35." =)

I have two question.

1) After kitting out this hypothetical cannibalized 'varicam mini' wouldn't it be around the same weight if not heavier than a LT? But with a stripped down operating system, fixed lens mount, no view finder, dodgy prosumer media, etc etc. And at the same time possibly devaluing the exclusivity and reputation of the flagship cameras?

2) Could you use a GH5 for an action/crash/drone cam? I haven't used one yet, but I believe it records in some flavor of v-log and might even have similar color science.


I'd love if Panasonic would introduce 4k 444 30fps AVC-Intra on the Varicam LT, and fine tune the rec.709 LUT (many agree it is a little warm).


Great topic by the way.

Cheers, TGIF!
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I think if there's one thing Panny has been good at historically it isn't cannibalizing the brand. The LT and The 35 share a sensor but are very different cameras that co-exist without any issues.

The branding tends to be very distinct The AJ series of cameras are usually p2 (AVC-Ultra codec family)
the AG series (used to all be AVCCAM)
So my speculation would be that if it ever happens said camera would be in the AG series of cameras not AJ.

And I can't see an Fs-5 / C-100 size camera being rigged up to weigh as much as a fully kitted out LT...Yes I'm sure you can throw a Angenieux Optimo 24-290mm Zoom on it and quickly make weight.

regarding the REC.709 Lut you can create and load a 709 lut that suits your fancy on the LT...Able cine has a few, also Panasonic released an updated Rec.709 lut in a firmware update from last December I believe.

If you're handy with a DSC labs chart and resolve you can easily create any LUT you like.
I've been playing with making some creative monitoring LUTS using the FIlmconvert OFX plugin in resolve.

Cheers
 
Colin Nusbaum said:
I completely agree. The bottom line is that the LT has an amazing image, one which is virtually unrivaled, and many people like myself are probably just hoping there might be some feasible way to put that into a slightly cheaper, slightly smaller package. (Personally, I don't really mind the P2 media because... reliable). I suppose time will tell if we are asking for too much.




I think there could be a way to keep a Varicam Mini more slim and powerful, but without other 'Pro' features that are found on the LT. Namely, the Mini could be without the control panel, it could be without the proxy recording, it could trade the 4 channels of audio for 2 (and maybe even include some dedicated audio knobs!). The ability of the V35 and the LT to handle multiple video streams is impressive, but I have to imagine this takes a lot of processing power. What if the Mini did not have the ability to bake in custom LUTs, but only monitor them? I'm no engineer, but these all seem like ways to save weight.

Again, time will tell... and I'll be waiting with crossed fingers.
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I don't know what will happen but if I were a betting man and a smaller s35 Panny shows up in the near future, I suspect It will not bear the V varicam badge but be very close cousin from the AG family delivering the Varicam Image & Sex appeal to the non P2 masses.
Cheers
 
Colin Nusbaum said:
I have seen some mentions, rumors, guesses, and pipe dreams on the forums. But I have also heard, in fact, that Panasonic may be developing an even smaller Varicam (than the LT).

I for one, would be thrilled about the opportunity to buy a C300-sized Varicam. But what are the chances they will sell the Dual ISO Sensor technology in a new camera for under $13k? What are the chances we will find out later this month at NAB?
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Dual ISO + good AF + swappable mounts + $10K ish ish price = killer Varicam!!
 
Chris Langer said:
When the FS7 came out, a lot of people were doubting it's success and potential. I bought into the first run of Sony FS7's because it was the perfect camera for me at the time to grow my business. When I decided to purchase my LT, I decided it was the right move to push my business even further, similar to the FS7 did for me 3 or so years ago. Now I see a lot of productions using FS7's because of it's wide variety of uses. I was hired quite a bit with it and my clients were very happy with its performance.
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Why did you buy a Varicam LT when you already had a Sony FS7?
 
sean007davis said:
As An early adopter Varicam LT user. I certainly see the need for a B camera for the LT and a camera that the GH4/5 user can grow into (the same way the canon DSLR users grew into the C series cameras). I am using the Kinefinity as a B camera for the Varicam and I just acquired a GH5 to back up my varicam LT. I think a s35 FS5 style camera would be a welcome addition for me. Field of view that matches the Varicam LT and Easily go back and fourth between both camera with the same lenses.
I think there is generally a basis for rumors and Panasonic seems to be listening to users and potential users, so I'll go ahead and start my list of essential features, since Mitch is on here i'll back it up with a duffel bag full of singles $ at NAB as a deposit for said camera, And I know a few other LT owner who would do the Same
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Part of Canon's success with the C100/C300 is because they had a massive massive MASSIVE user base lf Canon DSLR filmmakers who then grew up and "graduated" to become C100/C300 owners. I've seen this happen over and over and over again.
(Part of Sony's success comes also from their strong links between their a7 / NEX etc range and their FS series of cameras. Making for an easy transition between them)

Panasonic has over the years been growing a large user base of GH series owners, but where do they go to next?!?! For almost all of them the leap from say a GH4 to a Varicam is too large. So instead they'll be tempted away to a Sony FS5 or a new C100 mk3 when it comes out or any of these many other lower end mid tier camera options.

If Panasonic made a $10K camera with a swappable PL mount (so you can adapt other cheaper lenses to it, like with a F3/F5/Terra/URSA Mini Pro/etc) or say a $7K camera with a locking S35 MFT mount (kinda like a merger of a JVC LS300 & a Sony FS7 mk2, this would be my dream!) then Panasonic would do a great job at holding onto their GH series owners as they move up. And would have another bigger user base of people to then eventually feed into buying their highest end Varicam cameras.

sean007davis said:
-FS5/C100 size
-S35mm dual ISO sensor (doesn't have to be 800/5000 iso ... 800/4000 will do , I already own an LT...)
-Varicam color science
-Dci 4k 60p (internally)
-2k 240 FPS
-Raw out of the SDI like the varicam LT
-interchangeable lens mount or Mirror less mount (because using one lens mount in 2017 is for the birds)
-Proxy recording
-10 bit Everything (new slogan...lets be honest if the GH5 is recording 10 bit there is no reason every pro camera from here on out should't be)
-Support for LUTs (like the Varicam LT and ... well The GH5)
- anamorphic recording (I've been living with the side crop on my Varicam LT, I will take it on a smaller camera)
-Recording to consumer media And I NOT MEAN cFAST (the there are new affordable card that will do the high bit rates.

If I missed something I'm sure other will chime in,

Mitch where would you like the bag of money for this camera delivered??
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Great list of wishes.
 
sean007davis said:
I think a box cam would indeed be a really niche product, the Sony UMC-S3C and Canon ME200F-SH aren't exactly everywhere or flying off the shelves. C-100s and Fs5's are everywhere
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Yeah the only reason the boxy Arri Alexa Mini is so popular is because of the sensor inside it and the Arri name on it.

Panasonic should make it with ergnomocs similar to a C100 or FS5 if they want theirs to fly off the shelves.
 
IronFilm said:
"Part of Canon's success with the C100/C300 is because they had a massive massive MASSIVE user base lf Canon DSLR filmmakers who then grew up and "graduated" to become C100/C300 owners. I've seen this happen over and over and over again."

It's not just that Canon had the dslr film crowd, it's also about the glass. A lot of folks crave interchangeable lenses, but if you went with a true video cam and added lenses it would break the business model for cost. The lens cost is over the top. Enter the very ubiquitous Canon glass and badabing, a 5k camera and 5k of canon glass sitting in the closet and you have a pretty great camera system using a large sensor. I just don't think micro 4/3 will ever be as popular. There just aren't that many people who start with a GH4 and 4/3 glass as a still cam even though it is, no doubt, a pretty good cam.

G
 
Hypothetically speaking, Panasonic could release an s35 camera with :

1) an adapter to s35 for its own MFT glass a la Fuji GFX 500 that can use the FF lenses.

2) a variable geometry coverage a la JVC LS300 and its own GH5.

3) swappable mount for the PL and its own MFT glass, with the latter having electronic connections for the AF, etc.

JVC LS 300 didn't really find a great acceptance on the market but an s35 size sensor with 20-24 MPX would give a 5-6K image with PL glass and/or MFT-to-s35 adapter and ~ 4.5K with the MFT.

It'd be kind of/sort of an AF-200 type.
 
IronFilm said:
Why did you buy a Varicam LT when you already had a Sony FS7?
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Frankly because the varicam LT image and every thing about it. including internal codec takes a big number 2 on the FS7.... and I'm a long time sony user from the EX3. owned the F5 and still occasionally shoot F55...Sony engineers very nice cameras, but they all lack sex appeal. I like then for Doc ENG work, but left to my own vices I'd never shoot a narrative or commercial with any Sony that isn't the F65 or F55. the colors and skin-tones on all the other leave a lot to be desired, in my opinion. The F5 was always a stop gap camera for me until something with and image that inspired me came along, and as soon as the Varicam LT was announced I put my money down for it, Haven't looked back since
 
Colin Nusbaum said:
I have seen some mentions, rumors, guesses, and pipe dreams on the forums. But I have also heard, in fact, that Panasonic may be developing an even smaller Varicam (than the LT).

I for one, would be thrilled about the opportunity to buy a C300-sized Varicam. But what are the chances they will sell the Dual ISO Sensor technology in a new camera for under $13k? What are the chances we will find out later this month at NAB?
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Let's wait and see what NAB brings. It's just around the corner!

I certainly think in the current market where the FS7 update was minimal and left many asking for more, there's an opportunity for someone to swoop in with a new offering.

Milan O. said:
Mitch is right, changing the mounts is easy on the Varicam LT.
Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/3X4pJiUWxkk
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Someone asked me to show them this in the field one day and having done it a few times already I decided to try for a record time. Came in around 1 min 45 seconds. Thats a mount changed and its no small engineering feat if you ask me.
 
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