Varicam LT / Atomos Shogun 7 Prores Raw questions
- Thread starter Emile Kelly
- Start date
Emile Kelly
Member
A bit of digging has revealed that this is the Pana Raw LOG rather than the V-LOG of the internal codec. Pana Raw apparently doesn't look as flat as V-LOG and other LOG formats. Atomos make a LUT to convert Pana Raw into V-LOG:https://www.atomos.com/firmware/shogun-inferno
Yes, what you are seeing is the log curve used on the RAW output. I usually burn in the Atomos conversion LUT on the Shogun when recording regular QuickTime. That saves an extra conversion after the shoot. Mind you, if I shoot something critical or more high end, I shoot ProRes Raw. Exporting that as a log format Quicktime file if need be (444 or lower) is easy in Compressor or Scratch and you'll be sure the LUT doesn't clip anything or causes some other nasty surprise. No issues so far, but better safe than sorry...
Emile Kelly
Member
I’d like to be shooting Prores RAW but lack of compatibility with resolve is a prob. I need to work out how to do simple transcodes to 4444 in assimilate scratch but haven’t had time to work out the UX to run that simple process
You can do the same thing in Apple Compressor. With RAW to Log conversion and LUTs you can switch on or off. Assimilate has much more options, obviously, but Compressor is cheap and fast.
Just duplicate the premade setting and tweak that on the first clip (settings and default location). Then apply the tweaked one to the rest of the clips.
Just duplicate the premade setting and tweak that on the first clip (settings and default location). Then apply the tweaked one to the rest of the clips.
Emile Kelly
Member
Good tip thanks.
Latest release of premiere (14.5) also now has a log conversion toggle for Prores raw clips where you can select v-log/v-gamma which is great. I can’t see a way to do it in batch or with a copy and paste setting so that’s a bit annoying, but you can then batch export via media encoder.
Press releases seem to state you can do all of the above in media encoder but I can’t see how
Latest release of premiere (14.5) also now has a log conversion toggle for Prores raw clips where you can select v-log/v-gamma which is great. I can’t see a way to do it in batch or with a copy and paste setting so that’s a bit annoying, but you can then batch export via media encoder.
Press releases seem to state you can do all of the above in media encoder but I can’t see how
Emile Kelly
Member
Atomos shogun 7 output Q:
I can’t seem to output an HD signal over the 12g SDI, meaning I can’t send a signal to many 17” monitors or wireless transmitters commonly used on productions. The option seems to be there in “output options”, with 4k to hd output set to “off”, but seemingly un-toggleable. Anyone know what the deal is here?
I can’t seem to output an HD signal over the 12g SDI, meaning I can’t send a signal to many 17” monitors or wireless transmitters commonly used on productions. The option seems to be there in “output options”, with 4k to hd output set to “off”, but seemingly un-toggleable. Anyone know what the deal is here?
Emile Kelly
Member
Latest problem - since installing the 10.42 firmware on my Atomos it is no longer recording audio from the varicam LT. It gets levels which I can see and hear, but won’t record them into the file. I have made sure audio recording is switched on for the correct channels on the atomos. When plugged via HDMI into my S1h it records audio fine. Anyone come across this bug??
modernhuman
Member
Not sure this is fully relevant to the initial post, but I own a Varicam LT and Shogun Inferno. I've run many, many tests trying to figure this system out. I've tried all the major formats and codecs (raw dng, prores raw, prores 422 hq, internal All-i, etc.). It took a lot of trial and error to figure out how to setup everything and Atomos is about as helpful as a brick and about as transparent as one too. Here are some observations and thoughts, when working with Davinci Resolve:
1. When shooting internally to Vlog, the Varicam records Data Levels defaulting to "Full". Because I started off using the Varicam recording to the Shogun, before I had ever shot internally, this was not apparent to me. If filming in Prores 422 format for instance it defaults to "Video". This is incorrect. If you read the white paper about Vlog on Panasonic's website, you will see that the white clip is at 911 and the black is at 128. So if shooting externally to Prores 422 or HQ, make sure to change all of your clips to "Full" in "Clip Attributes". This will ensure that what you're seeing in your viewfinder and / or monitor feed as what ends up in Resolve.
2. RAW DNG is absolutely the best format, if going for image quality. But in a lot of cases, it's very hard to see a difference compared to ProRes and Internal. The way I heard it explained best is, raw isn't necessary until it is. Basically what you get is slightly (and I mean slightly) more detail and the ability to pull things out of the shadows in a more natural way. I'm talking way down in the shadows though. So if you are filming in bright well lit areas, raw probably won't matter. But if you have really contrasty lighting (think movie lighting) or you are filming night scenes and you really want to pull something out of the shadows, then raw is going to win every time. But by how much, is really up to you.
3. Internal recording is definitely inferior to all external formats for image quality. It's a bit softer, there are aliasing artifacts in fine detail things like trees and patterns. But here's the catch, internal recording is the most accurate to what you see in the viewfinder, color wise. Raw is also very accurate, but I'll get to how to set that up properly in a second. Prores has to have the Atomos PanaRaw to Vlog LUT applied when recording, or else you end up with an incorrect image. The catch here is twofold, when you apply this LUT, your Shogun looks like log footage and you can't see your footage with any sort of look LUT. So the Shogun effectively becomes a recorder and basic monitor for framing. The other catch is that the LUT you record your footage into isn't quite right. To see what I'm talking about record a few clips externally and internally simultaneously and bring them into Resolve. Remember the ProRes clips need to be changed to Full Data Levels. But when you grade both internal and external clips with the same settings you will see that they don't quite match. This is a real bummer to me and basically means that the Atomos LUT is a guess and not a mathematical match. It's also a bummer because for most uses ProRes HQ is more than enough for filming and is superior in sharpness and no aliasing, when compared to the Internal recording. So it's kind of a choose your poison thing.
4. If filming in raw DNG you have to set Resolve up correctly or you won't get the correct Vlog output. Firstly, you can setup your Color Science as Davinci YRGB or Color Managed YRGB, but if you set up with Color Managed you need to select your color space / gamma per clip as "Bypass" (but don't select "bypass color management"). Once you've done that you can go to the raw tab and select Decode Using: Clip and then under Colorspace select Panasonic V-Gamut. This will get you to a correct Vlog / VGamut space, except you are working with uncompressed DNGs!
5. Another thing I've noticed about DNG is that if you change the white balance in camera your Color Temp and Tint sliders in the Raw Tab will be 'Offset' to whatever you set in camera. In other words, the DNG file doesn't know what white balance setting you recorded. So if you set 3200k for instance, the slider is now offset by the amount that you veered from 6500k (this number is TBD). Just know that if you are seeking correct white balance numbers in post you need to find the absolute WB (6500, I think) and set that in camera. Then, to view other White balance settings on set, you have to change the lut with a WB shift for each setting you want. So your camera never changes, but your lut does. Then in post you can set the WB with the raw sliders to get the correct looks.
6. I haven't explored ProRes Raw very much, but haven't found a method to extract a real Vlog from the file. To be fair, I haven't tried the new settings in FCPx because I don't own that. But I have tried Compressor and transcoding ProRes 4444 and you can extract all of the data, but not sure how to conform to a matching Vlog. So the footage doesn't look right. If anybody knows how to match to internal Vlog I would love to know. But this format is a bit of a problem, given that you have to convert to even view it in DR.
7. Varicam LT is a quirky camera and it does have a lot of gotchas in every single format. Some of which I've discussed above. However, the image quality is quite good (especially in DNG) and not many cameras are going to best it, if you know what you're doing. It's got a great balance for handheld and the viewfinder is awesome to use (if a little dark).
I'm sure I've missed some things, regarding this camera. But, hopefully, someone can benefit from all the frustrations that I had to go through to figure out how the camera really works. Between Panasonic and Atomos, they really need to work through their manuals and communicating this stuff in a more black and white way. Also, a few firmware changes could make this camera amazing, but I don't see them doing that anytime soon, if ever. Both companies have all but abandoned these products.
1. When shooting internally to Vlog, the Varicam records Data Levels defaulting to "Full". Because I started off using the Varicam recording to the Shogun, before I had ever shot internally, this was not apparent to me. If filming in Prores 422 format for instance it defaults to "Video". This is incorrect. If you read the white paper about Vlog on Panasonic's website, you will see that the white clip is at 911 and the black is at 128. So if shooting externally to Prores 422 or HQ, make sure to change all of your clips to "Full" in "Clip Attributes". This will ensure that what you're seeing in your viewfinder and / or monitor feed as what ends up in Resolve.
2. RAW DNG is absolutely the best format, if going for image quality. But in a lot of cases, it's very hard to see a difference compared to ProRes and Internal. The way I heard it explained best is, raw isn't necessary until it is. Basically what you get is slightly (and I mean slightly) more detail and the ability to pull things out of the shadows in a more natural way. I'm talking way down in the shadows though. So if you are filming in bright well lit areas, raw probably won't matter. But if you have really contrasty lighting (think movie lighting) or you are filming night scenes and you really want to pull something out of the shadows, then raw is going to win every time. But by how much, is really up to you.
3. Internal recording is definitely inferior to all external formats for image quality. It's a bit softer, there are aliasing artifacts in fine detail things like trees and patterns. But here's the catch, internal recording is the most accurate to what you see in the viewfinder, color wise. Raw is also very accurate, but I'll get to how to set that up properly in a second. Prores has to have the Atomos PanaRaw to Vlog LUT applied when recording, or else you end up with an incorrect image. The catch here is twofold, when you apply this LUT, your Shogun looks like log footage and you can't see your footage with any sort of look LUT. So the Shogun effectively becomes a recorder and basic monitor for framing. The other catch is that the LUT you record your footage into isn't quite right. To see what I'm talking about record a few clips externally and internally simultaneously and bring them into Resolve. Remember the ProRes clips need to be changed to Full Data Levels. But when you grade both internal and external clips with the same settings you will see that they don't quite match. This is a real bummer to me and basically means that the Atomos LUT is a guess and not a mathematical match. It's also a bummer because for most uses ProRes HQ is more than enough for filming and is superior in sharpness and no aliasing, when compared to the Internal recording. So it's kind of a choose your poison thing.
4. If filming in raw DNG you have to set Resolve up correctly or you won't get the correct Vlog output. Firstly, you can setup your Color Science as Davinci YRGB or Color Managed YRGB, but if you set up with Color Managed you need to select your color space / gamma per clip as "Bypass" (but don't select "bypass color management"). Once you've done that you can go to the raw tab and select Decode Using: Clip and then under Colorspace select Panasonic V-Gamut. This will get you to a correct Vlog / VGamut space, except you are working with uncompressed DNGs!
5. Another thing I've noticed about DNG is that if you change the white balance in camera your Color Temp and Tint sliders in the Raw Tab will be 'Offset' to whatever you set in camera. In other words, the DNG file doesn't know what white balance setting you recorded. So if you set 3200k for instance, the slider is now offset by the amount that you veered from 6500k (this number is TBD). Just know that if you are seeking correct white balance numbers in post you need to find the absolute WB (6500, I think) and set that in camera. Then, to view other White balance settings on set, you have to change the lut with a WB shift for each setting you want. So your camera never changes, but your lut does. Then in post you can set the WB with the raw sliders to get the correct looks.
6. I haven't explored ProRes Raw very much, but haven't found a method to extract a real Vlog from the file. To be fair, I haven't tried the new settings in FCPx because I don't own that. But I have tried Compressor and transcoding ProRes 4444 and you can extract all of the data, but not sure how to conform to a matching Vlog. So the footage doesn't look right. If anybody knows how to match to internal Vlog I would love to know. But this format is a bit of a problem, given that you have to convert to even view it in DR.
7. Varicam LT is a quirky camera and it does have a lot of gotchas in every single format. Some of which I've discussed above. However, the image quality is quite good (especially in DNG) and not many cameras are going to best it, if you know what you're doing. It's got a great balance for handheld and the viewfinder is awesome to use (if a little dark).
I'm sure I've missed some things, regarding this camera. But, hopefully, someone can benefit from all the frustrations that I had to go through to figure out how the camera really works. Between Panasonic and Atomos, they really need to work through their manuals and communicating this stuff in a more black and white way. Also, a few firmware changes could make this camera amazing, but I don't see them doing that anytime soon, if ever. Both companies have all but abandoned these products.