Varicam LT / Atomos Shogun 7 Prores Raw questions

[Emile Kelly]

1: When shooting Prores Raw on the Atomos and a proxy internally to P2 express cards is there a way to make Filenames match? This seems vital to a clean proxy workflow

2: I notice the Atomos seems to only read the base ISO and higher for exposure. IE if my base ISO is 800 and I pull down to 400 in camera, the exposure on the Atomos (and in the raw file?) won’t change. But if I push up to 1600 it will. Why is this? It’s annoying.

3: What are people’s workflows for manipulating Prores raw? The settings in premiere seem to be limited to 1 exposure slider. My ideal situation is to be able edit using the proxy files recorded in camera using premiere, then replace with the UHD Prores RAW files and export as Prores 4444 for finishing in resolve.

I’ve done a test transcoding from the Prores raw to 4444 and found the information is not all there when I try to recover highlights in resolve. IE I can’t pull back the sky In the 4444 even though I can see in the Prores RAW In premiere it is all there if I adjust the exposure slider.

4: I know Prores raw is limited compared to other raw formats in terms of manipulating ISO/WB etc in post, but is there way to at least see this metadata? In premiere/media encoder I cant see it

Thanks in advance!

 

[OliverM]

1: Not possible. Also, be careful with proxy workflows like this. TC will match, but will the length of the clips match up every time? Some NLE's won't let you relink to files with a different length, even if it's just a few frames off. I think you're better off using the P2 as backup and use an app to make proxies off the RAW files. See 3 & 4. But in my experience, ProRes RAW works fast. No need for proxies.

2: Correct. Going up from base ISO sends a higher voltage to the sensor so that changes the readout. I guess they can't lower the voltage when you go down and use some kind of image processing, which would be why it does not happen in the RAW stream. Keep in mind you lose some DR going down and don't have noise reduction in RAW anyway.

3: Workflow in PP is not optimal. It converts to a linear gamma, so you have to grade in PP. Or at least adjust so you don't crush any highlights or shadows if you want to export to Resolve. Going through Assimilate Scratch will solve all this. It lets you export ProRes RAW to ProRes 4444 log footage (or anything else you need) and has WB and ISO adjustment. But it adds an extra step in the process, which isn't great. Although it might be handy for your proxy workflow. I think more and better controls are coming to more apps soon though. Final Cut lets you handle and exports ProRes RAW as log as well. No RAW WB and ISO though. The ProRes RAW WB adjustment in Scratch is awesome. ISO adjustment a silly name, for any RAW format. Nothing more than a kind of tone mapping adjustment really.

4: see 3, and Scratch is free until the end of October if you want to play around.

 

[Emile Kelly]

Thanks Oliver that’s all helpful

RE the proxy workflow, yes having thought about this I agree.

The ISO thing makes sense - Although I thought of gaining down as remapping the DR for more stops in the shadows rather than losing overall DR. Also I thought it was widely accepted that 5000 is pretty noisy but going down to 2000/3200 cleans It up a lot, how then do you work with that principle with the Atomos which only reads out exposure at 5000 and above..I guess working with a LUT which pushes the exposure down for viewing on the Atomos night work. Rarely If ever would I actually want an image at exposed at 5000.

Is 5000 supposed to have same DR as 800?

Will check out scratch and hope those features come to premiere and eventually resolve support for prores RAW.

Would love this camera to be able to do 12bit 60p, and 12 bit 2k 200, to the Atomos. Not sure if it’s possible or if Panasonic have any firmware updates still in pipeline.


NorBro thanks for your offer! I’m all good on that now

E

 

[OliverM]

5000 has the same DR as 800, yes. And if you go up in ISO, DR stays the same as well. It's only if you gain down from 800 or 5000 that you lose DR. If you output RAW to the Shogun you're not getting any noise reduction either, no mather in what codec you record on the Shogun. If you record the V-log HD SDI signal on the Shogun you will. I haven't tried, but you should be able to record gained down ISO levels that way.
But only HD, so recordig to internal P2 gets you 4K in this case.

The 5000 ISO is noisier, but I don't really mind. As long as you have decent exposure levels the noise is very acceptable. Even at higher ISO levels, the image cleans up nice as long as there is info on the waveform. If you've got everything stuck on the bottom of the waveform because it's really dark you can still recover a lot, including colour, but resolution and detail will take a hit. Still, pretty amazing to see what you can dig up from almost pitch black.
So especially with the Shogun, make sure you've got good (or as good as possible) exposure. You're better off going up in ISO than shooting pitch black images. A good noise reduction in post will solve almost any ISO noise.
I haven't tried cleaning up 12800 yet. I will soon though, since I'm curious myself now.

FCPX just got WB and ISO controls for ProRes RAW. They work great. So Premiere will follow. Nobody knows when though.

12 bit at higher framerates isn't coming. I'm quite sure it is a hardware limitation. But I can't really tell 12bit and 10bit ProRes RAW footage apart when I'm editing. Both look and work great.

 

[Adam Fiori]

1: When shooting Prores Raw on the Atomos and a proxy internally to P2 express cards is there a way to make Filenames match? This seems vital to a clean proxy workflow

2: I notice the Atomos seems to only read the base ISO and higher for exposure. IE if my base ISO is 800 and I pull down to 400 in camera, the exposure on the Atomos (and in the raw file?) won’t change. But if I push up to 1600 it will. Why is this? It’s annoying.

3: What are people’s workflows for manipulating Prores raw? The settings in premiere seem to be limited to 1 exposure slider. My ideal situation is to be able edit using the proxy files recorded in camera using premiere, then replace with the UHD Prores RAW files and export as Prores 4444 for finishing in resolve.

I’ve done a test transcoding from the Prores raw to 4444 and found the information is not all there when I try to recover highlights in resolve. IE I can’t pull back the sky In the 4444 even though I can see in the Prores RAW In premiere it is all there if I adjust the exposure slider.

4: I know Prores raw is limited compared to other raw formats in terms of manipulating ISO/WB etc in post, but is there way to at least see this metadata? In premiere/media encoder I cant see it

Thanks in advance!

I have a VariCam LT and use the Shogun 7, however, I prefer record to the P2 card in V-Log and use the shogun as an monitor instead. I’m sending the RAW signal to the Shogun 7 and applying Rec.709 look LUTs or just viewing native on it; I tried RAW a few times and didn’t feel the workflow and file footprint was worth it.

I’m not sure I understand why there would be a loss in DR when shooting at a lower ISO from the base of 5000 or 800. As far as noise is concerned, 1600 from 5000 base seemed to have less noise than a base of 800; I shot various ISO settings into the VariCam lens cap and compared the noise.

 

[OliverM]

I’m not sure I understand why there would be a loss in DR when shooting at a lower ISO from the base of 5000 or 800. As far as noise is concerned, 1600 from 5000 base seemed to have less noise than a base of 800; I shot various ISO settings into the VariCam lens cap and compared the noise.

This is straight from the manual:


And you can see the same on a waveform in this video: https://youtu.be/-OAEgariGKI?t=174

When you go down from base ISO the bottom stops are being sacrificed to get rid of noise. Not a big issue on a camera with this much latitude though. Especially in a more controlled environment you can easily work around losing one or two stops. Or you wouldn't even need them in the first place.

 

[Mitch Gross]

It's simple, you're just pushing the bottom of the range into black. It's basically overexposing by a stop and compensating with a grade automatically.

 

[Adam Fiori]

It's simple, you're just pushing the bottom of the range into black. It's basically overexposing by a stop and compensating with a grade automatically.

Hey Mitch! So, ISO 1600 from 5000 base, has less DR and noise thank 5K, however is more sensitive than base ISO 800 even though 800 has more DR?

 

[Emile Kelly]

Thanks for all thoughts and replies guys.

I’m currently shooting Raw to Prores HQ on the Atomos with the main motivation being to get better 50/60 frames than the internal 422 LT codec, but also to give a director a nice image on the dumb side of the camera. My BIG frustration with this at the moment is the signal is not rock solid and I have issues with It dropping in and out, which is just not something I’m going to deal with going forward. I’m using nice wooden camera coiled SDI cables wyith right angle attachments and that seemed to make it solid but after a few days use in a docco environment it’s dropping in and out again. I also don’t love the Atomos on a noga, anyone mounting it in a better way?

The cable thing for raw with the Atomos is a big prob. I mean how’s that supposed to work if you want to stick it on a steadicam or Movi which may introduce even more destabilising movement and longer cables etc?

 

[Adam Fiori]

Thanks for all thoughts and replies guys.

I’m currently shooting Raw to Prores HQ on the Atomos with the main motivation being to get better 50/60 frames than the internal 422 LT codec, but also to give a director a nice image on the dumb side of the camera. My BIG frustration with this at the moment is the signal is not rock solid and I have issues with It dropping in and out, which is just not something I’m going to deal with going forward. I’m using nice wooden camera coiled SDI cables wyith right angle attachments and that seemed to make it solid but after a few days use in a docco environment it’s dropping in and out again. I also don’t love the Atomos on a noga, anyone mounting it in a better way?

The cable thing for raw with the Atomos is a big prob. I mean how’s that supposed to work if you want to stick it on a steadicam or Movi which may introduce even more destabilising movement and longer cables etc?

I haven’t had any issues with the straight ones from Zacuto. https://store.zacuto.com/30”-sdi-video-cable-bnc-to-bnc/

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hey Mitch! So, ISO 1600 from 5000 base, has less DR and noise thank 5K, however is more sensitive than base ISO 800 even though 800 has more DR?

Correct.

ISO 1600 from 5000 native has middle gray one stop higher than 800 native. That ISO 1600 also retains the white clip point of the 5000 native, so as you "pull" sensitivity to 1600 (1.33 stops) yu are simply losing highlight range. Instead of 8 stops under/6.5 stops over (the standard DR at the two native ISOs), you effectively get 8 stops under/5.2 stops over. You're clipping the range a bit but you'll also be plunging the bottom of that exposure range into the blacks so the noise disappears.

BTW, this is what happens when you leave the native ISO on most cameras (some do some funky hidden gains that you can't control, which I kinda hate). If you take an Alexa and shift the ISO down to 200 you'll find that you've clipped two stops off the highlights, which is really because the sensor is still native 800 and you're just saturating the hell out of the sensor. Put the signal up on a waveform and you'll see you can't get it over something like 86IRE. Of course that camera doesn't have the beauty of true dual-native ISO like the VariCams. I know a lot of DPs who go to 5000ISO and shift down to 400 or 3200 as their standard practice. Works great and the loss of DR is minimal.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks for all thoughts and replies guys.

I’m currently shooting Raw to Prores HQ on the Atomos with the main motivation being to get better 50/60 frames than the internal 422 LT codec, but also to give a director a nice image on the dumb side of the camera. My BIG frustration with this at the moment is the signal is not rock solid and I have issues with It dropping in and out, which is just not something I’m going to deal with going forward. I’m using nice wooden camera coiled SDI cables wyith right angle attachments and that seemed to make it solid but after a few days use in a docco environment it’s dropping in and out again. I also don’t love the Atomos on a noga, anyone mounting it in a better way?

The cable thing for raw with the Atomos is a big prob. I mean how’s that supposed to work if you want to stick it on a steadicam or Movi which may introduce even more destabilising movement and longer cables etc?

I find these to be very high performance and they're so thin that they can be coiled up and tucked away behind the monitor nicely.https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...coaxial_cable_12g_sdi_4k.html?sts=pi-ps&pim=Y

BTW, DO NOT EVER use right-angle adapters when working with RAW signals, and frankly avoid then whenever you have a critical signal. An adapter cuts about 6db of signal and many of them cut a lot more. The connectors on the above cable are small enough that you shouldn't need a right-angle adapter anyway. I know some cables are available with native right angle connectors. My experience has been that straight connectors usually perform better, delivering more signal.

 

[OliverM]

I find these to be very high performance and they're so thin that they can be coiled up and tucked away behind the monitor nicely.https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...coaxial_cable_12g_sdi_4k.html?sts=pi-ps&pim=Y

BTW, DO NOT EVER use right-angle adapters when working with RAW signals, and frankly avoid then whenever you have a critical signal. An adapter cuts about 6db of signal and many of them cut a lot more. The connectors on the above cable are small enough that you shouldn't need a right-angle adapter anyway. I know some cables are available with native right angle connectors. My experience has been that straight connectors usually perform better, delivering more signal.

For what it's worth, I've worked with the right-angle Zacuto cables without any issues for almost a year now. Other right-angle cables dropped out for a second after even the slightest bump.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1210297-REG/zacuto_z_sdic_right_angle_bnc_to.html

 

[Emile Kelly]

Thanks all, have got the zacutos and they seem solid ! Will prob grab some of those Mitch recommended also.

I’m shooting a doc and considering the internal codecs as 4k Prores HQ on the Atomos is too heavy storage wise. What are people’s thoughts on 4K/UHD AVC-422 vs 2k/HD AVC-4444?

Also is Prores RAW supposed to be lighter than Prores 422 HQ? Atomos shows far less record time for Prores raw but then the record time reduces very slowly with no relation to actual time. I guess this is due to its variable data rate but be good to know in general how it compares to 422 HQ

 

[Adam Fiori]

Thanks all, have got the zacutos and they seem solid ! Will prob grab some of those Mitch recommended also.

I’m shooting a doc and considering the internal codecs as 4k Prores HQ on the Atomos is too heavy storage wise. What are people’s thoughts on 4K/UHD AVC-422 vs 2k/HD AVC-4444?

Also is Prores RAW supposed to be lighter than Prores 422 HQ? Atomos shows far less record time for Prores raw but then the record time reduces very slowly with no relation to actual time. I guess this is due to its variable data rate but be good to know in general how it compares to 422 HQ

I like recording internally @ 4k AVC intra 422 V-Log and using the atomos as an monitor for looks.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks all, have got the zacutos and they seem solid ! Will prob grab some of those Mitch recommended also.

I’m shooting a doc and considering the internal codecs as 4k Prores HQ on the Atomos is too heavy storage wise. What are people’s thoughts on 4K/UHD AVC-422 vs 2k/HD AVC-4444?

Also is Prores RAW supposed to be lighter than Prores 422 HQ? Atomos shows far less record time for Prores raw but then the record time reduces very slowly with no relation to actual time. I guess this is due to its variable data rate but be good to know in general how it compares to 422 HQ

ProRes RAW is variable bit rate -- very variable. There are two levels of ProRes RAW, regular and HQ. ProRes RAW regular is generally a little bigger than ProRes 422HQ and ProRes RAW HQ is a little bigger than ProRes 4444.

 

[Gary T]

ProRes RAW is variable bit rate -- very variable. There are two levels of ProRes RAW, regular and HQ. ProRes RAW regular is generally a little bigger than ProRes 422HQ and ProRes RAW HQ is a little bigger than ProRes 4444.

Hi Mitch, can you clarify something?

Apple's white paper says that "decoding ProRes RAW directly results in HDR linear values rather than log" and in the CineD article below Louise Temmesfeld, the colorist who worked on Matthias Bolliger short said, "the ProRes RAW signal recorded by the Atomos Ninja V and coming out of the S1H is a linear RGB signal."

That all seems pretty clear but on the Atomos S1H page they say Ninja V can record "12 bit VLog RAW." Is this a typo or is possible to record 12-bit log encoded ProRes RAW from the S1H and Varicam LT?


Thanks!


https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW.pdf
https://www.cined.com/panasonic-lum...g-tested-interview-with-dp-matthias-bolliger/
https://www.atomos.com/cameras/panasonic-s1h

 

[Mitch Gross]

I think this is really a question for Atomos or really Apple. I know that the recorders capture the full data range of info from the VariCam LT in either 10-bit or 12-bit modes, and Varicam's RAW structure is a LOG encode. Don't confuse this with V-LOG, which is a curve applied to a video signal. I don't believe that ProRes RAW linearizes the data, but I'm not sure of the details in how the data is carried. Certainly the full range of LOG-structured RAW data is preserved, as it would be quite obvious if it were not.

 

[OliverM]

There is a problem with the way the Shogun calculates free space with ProRes RAW.
On an SSD with 313gb of free space, recording in UHD 25P 10 bit, I get 1h17m for ProResd 422, 50m for ProRes HQ and 7m for ProRes RAW and RAW HQ
Even with the variable bitrate taken into consideration, this is way too low. And there should be a difference between regular RAW and HQ.
I think it's a software bug.

As for the log/linear, ProRes RAW doesn't linearize. It records what it gets. Some cameras output linear 12-bit (Z-cam for instance), but the S1H outputs 12-bit log.
It uses the same raw log to vlog conversion as the LT and EVA1. FCPX has this built-in for ProRes RAW Footage, but Atomos has a translation LUT for regular video as well: http://firmware.atomos.com/panaRAW_to_Vlog_Vgamut_LUTs.zip
The S1H does require an additional translation to get to Vgamut. The LUT and workflow explanation are available here: https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/lut/s1h_raw_lut/index.html

 

[Emile Kelly]

Hi All

Im recording Raw to Prores HQ on the shogun and its putting some Rec709ish look onto the footage, what's the deal here? When looking in resolve it is clearly not the flat log that the camera records internally? Is this some setting I'm missing in the shogun??

E