VariCam LT 2.0, EVA2?

morgan_moore said:
... I still think only sony and canon have access to the latest AF because they make it and then sell the older tech to thier rivals...
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They all have access to it. The Dual Pixels and the Phase Detect are becoming an outdated technology, as everything shifts toward the AI, as Sony calls it, or Deep Learning, as Canon does. This is all algorithm that recognizes a face and/or eye and instantly focuses on the subject (animals included, btw).

PS. That BFD AF that Panasonic has been using ought to be struck from the conversation entirely.
 
morgan_moore said:
I didnt say the camera was bad or worse than the FS7 (quite the contary) I just said the swap was not economically viable...
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I made the swap, sold the FS7 and went for the Panasonic route with GH5 / EVA1 and now S1.
It was a very good decision under economic aspects. Due to the fantastic color science and custom WB in LOG
I saved so much time in post. And I easily achieved a level of nice looking images I only reached with a lot lot more
effort (or not at all) with the FS7
I'd pay an extra grand for a FX9 like AF though
 
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morgan_moore said:
So are panny currently delivering or in the position to deliver good AF ? Im confused by your post.
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GH-5 has been updating since its release and its AF is pretty decent right now, although the best settings vary from the static position such as an interview, where a slow response time and low sensitivity is better, to the moving subjects where the response time needs to be lowered. S1 and S1H AF is still pretty iffy. I remember asking Clermond about it ... and he shot manually.

As to AI based AF, it's pretty much in every smartphone now. As to cameras, this was from last spring.

KT: First of all, before talking about AI, I think the most important thing is our high-speed platform, no? On the top of a high speed platform, we can create AI, but if the platform is slow, the moving subject will be gone! But our platform has a very high speed. That is our special talent or unique technology.Then, on top of this high-speed platform, we have an AI engine. As the first step, we investigated what type of subject people realistically are shooting right now. The most [common] subject is the eye. And another one is animals, and the birds, of course the car kind of thing, that kind of an object, we can create the using deep learning. Just setup a dictionary on top of our high-speed platform, AI can calculate the subject position. So the first step is [recognizing] eyes, but of course, we will expand the subject types. Right now I cannot tell you, but we already have a kind of organization, to create a dictionary.
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There's more here.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...re-of-autofocus-plus-expect-more-aps-c-bodies

Now, Samsung had "subject tracking" five years ago but it had its hiccups due to the processing power and memory limitations of the time.

https://www.wimarys.com/samsung-nx1-autofocus-performance/
 
morgan_moore said:
You didnt say it Onset did :)

I still think only sony and canon have access to the latest AF because they make it and then sell the older tech to thier rivals.

Im just saying, as this is a thread speculating about the EVA2 is that it needs AF at least as good as the Z6 - its not something Im aware of any Panny having. Wihtout decent AF in the pro solo/small crew sector a camera is a non starter if competing against canon and sony in the '$10k' sector.
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One point I was trying to make that seems to have gotten lost is that much of the 'high end cine glass' that's used for higher end productions does not have auto-focus capability -- so if you're designing a camera system for these productions (and lenses that don't auto-focus) then there may not be much demand for that feature.

One other thing (that I was reminded about yesterday when shooting for a company that brought their FX9 and two FS7's) to keep in mind is just how difficult/impossible it can be to manually focus with the sony fly-by-wire lenses - they had brought G-series 24-70 and 70-200 lenses. For any critical focus adjustment situations these lenses make it extremely difficult to manually adjust -- and given the even larger sensor and reduced depth of field of the FX9, using these lenses in certain situations almost require auto-focus.

So the question I'm really asking is whether sony's 'improved auto-focus' for the FX9 is as much a feature as it is a band-aid to 'fix' the problem of fly-by-wire lenses that do not lend themselves to proper manual focus.

Interestingly enough the companies I work for that bring their C-series canon cameras shoot almost exclusively on manual focus canon-mount cine primes...

And of course don't forget - now that so much of our shooting is done in 4k, many producers seem to go on the assumption that blowing the frame up 50% - 100% to reframe a medium shot to a MCU or CU will be no problem at all -- thus making perfect focus twice as critical!
 
OnSet said:
One point I was trying to make that seems to have gotten lost is that much of the 'high end cine glass' that's used for higher end productions does not have auto-focus capability -- so if you're designing a camera system for these productions (and lenses that don't auto-focus) then there may not be much demand for that feature.

So the question I'm really asking is whether sony's 'improved auto-focus' for the FX9 is as much a feature as it is a band-aid to 'fix' the problem of fly-by-wire lenses that do not lend themselves to proper manual focus.
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This is something that can be adapted to easily, in my opinion, especially with today’s tech available. They build the camera with an output to control an FIZ servo, then it just controls that servo to control the manual lenses focus. Standardize the output connection to work with standard cables and FIZ motors. It shouldn’t be that hard or complicated, it’s just whether anyone will choose to make it.
 
The high end pro productions - think Alexa and Cookes - with professional focus pullers deploy an ultrasonic range detector system, which give a very precise distance to the subject. The system is remote controlled for the manual adjustments by the focus puller working off a monitor. Pro grade glass is, naturally, all manual ...

... which is why Sony is coming out with the "cinema quality" AF/MF E-mount glass. It may not effect the prime time TV and features for a while but it surely helps the one man band types.

PS. My personal opinion is that FX-9 is good enough for a low/medium budget TV/independent feature production.
 
OnSet said:
One point I was trying to make that seems to have gotten lost is that much of the 'high end cine glass' that's used for higher end productions does not have auto-focus capability -- so if you're designing a camera system for these productions (and lenses that don't auto-focus) then there may not be much demand for that feature.

One other thing (that I was reminded about yesterday when shooting for a company that brought their FX9 and two FS7's) to keep in mind is just how difficult/impossible it can be to manually focus with the sony fly-by-wire lenses - they had brought G-series 24-70 and 70-200 lenses. For any critical focus adjustment situations these lenses make it extremely difficult to manually adjust -- and given the even larger sensor and reduced depth of field of the FX9, using these lenses in certain situations almost require auto-focus.

So the question I'm really asking is whether sony's 'improved auto-focus' for the FX9 is as much a feature as it is a band-aid to 'fix' the problem of fly-by-wire lenses that do not lend themselves to proper manual focus.

Interestingly enough the companies I work for that bring their C-series canon cameras shoot almost exclusively on manual focus canon-mount cine primes...

And of course don't forget - now that so much of our shooting is done in 4k, many producers seem to go on the assumption that blowing the frame up 50% - 100% to reframe a medium shot to a MCU or CU will be no problem at all -- thus making perfect focus twice as critical!
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Lots of points that can be chatted indefinitely :)

High end cine is not realy the place for an EVA2 - its primary for smaller productions.

I have FS7 and have manual lenses,I would not go near the fly by wires Ive tried (maybe a couple of years ago)

Its interesting that the sony lenses 'need AF' - canon and nikon AF glass is not horrific to manually focus - bad but not horrific - but the reason I feel AF is needed is that the humans are not good enough (even the best) because it just requires too much accuracy - for example monitoring in HD you cant even see 4k focus even a genius cant get it completely right because they are not being given enough data - only 1 in 4 pixels

Lots of people shoot manual.. because that is the big mans way of doing it!

Producers expecting is a 4Xpushin really relies on AF, but hopefully its not a reasonable ask of focus pullers without specialised monitors. In my world a digital crop can be required as the frame needs to be loose to cover facebook, bus shelter uprights and maybe a web letter box!
 
FIW, the hacked release for Olympus EM1 MKIII does mention the AI enabled auto-focus. The official announcement is slated for February, 11th (which is when all the YouTubers can go live with their reviews).
 
OnSet said:
Since I'm one of those who thought the color rendition, size, weight and versatility of the EVA1 made it far superior to the FS7 for my needs and style of shooting, I'm looking at this from a different perspective. Would I like to have a first-class continuous autofocus on an EVA2? - sure, it would be a nice feature. But look at the lineage of camera families and you may notice that autofocus is seldom found in the higher end models (Amira, Alexa, Venice, etc...). Not that I never use autofocus -- it's great to have it on my GH5s when mounted on a Ronin-S -- but I've been happy with the EVA1 even without it. On the other hand could I actually perform repeatedly accurate focus pulls with the Sony fly-by-wire E-Mount lenses? -- Never!
I'm also a big fan of having stronger lens mounts rather than weaker, so although the locking mount introduced with the FS7ii starts to approach stability, I much prefer the idea of an FZ-style intermediate mount to allow proper lens stability and easy use of PL lenses. For me, going with an MFT mount would be a step backwards.
But above all, I'm hoping that the next generation EVA will maintain the same color look and be able to cut seamlessly with the EVA1 and LT! and maybe have an improved flip-out viewfinder as well...
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Micro Four Thirds could have a locking mount too, just like the FS7mk2 has.

Even VENICE itself is using locking E Mount! That is a very very clear indication that Sony has ditched FZ Mount :-(

Panasonic EVA2 should have locking MFT as an option.
2nd best option would be locking L Mount
3rd best, MFT (non-locking)
4th best, L Mount
Worst, EF!
 
IronFilm said:
Micro Four Thirds could have a locking mount too, just like the FS7mk2 has.

Even VENICE itself is using locking E Mount! That is a very very clear indication that Sony has ditched FZ Mount :-(

Panasonic EVA2 should have locking MFT as an option.
2nd best option would be locking L Mount
3rd best, MFT (non-locking)
4th best, L Mount
Worst, EF!
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Just call me 'old school' -- I like the idea of larger diameter mounts because they can provide more strength and stability. Thus at a 38mm diameter I think that the MFT mount is too small for the larger, heavier lenses I'd like to be able to put on the EVA1 (or future EVA cameras).
Also, one advantage of the EF mount was that it made a huge number of lenses immediately available for the camera without an adapter. While there are a number of MFT mount lenses out there, you would probably find that most are not designed with an image circle large enough to cover the EVA sensor.
I was never suggesting that FZ was an option -- It's just an example of a large diameter, rock-solid stable adapter mount that was really designed to easily switch between a PL mount and other options. I don't think all the electronics are available in it to properly interface with many of the stills lenses - but I'm not sure about that. On the other hand it was probably expensive to manufacture, and fell by the wayside after the F5 and F55.
While the Venice can have its PL lens mount removed with 6 hex screws to reveal its E mount, that's a lot more work than switching from a PL to a Nikon adapter on the FZ mount. The people I know with the Venice seem to use PL lenses pretty exclusively. We're also talking a different price point.
That said, the recent increased popularity of the L mount might make that an interesting option - since it has both a larger diameter and the ability to adapt to other lens systems because of its short FF distance, and a locking system would increase its stability for larger lenses. So if moving away from an EF mount system, that might be an interesting way to go...
 
What Panasonic will do in the future is hard to predict. Sources say Panasonic will not have an APS-C sensor in the L-mount (https://phototrend.fr/2020/04/interview-yosuke-yamane-panasonic-japon-mars-2020/ and https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-...ps-c-l-mount-is-on-the-roadmap/#disqus_thread). Not sure if that just means the Lumix division?

Where does that leave a future EVA2? Does it go full-frame, or to micro4/3? (I'd be very surprised if any manufacturer came out with a new camera having an EF mount.) If it stays in the Professional line-up, I would say L-mount with the same sensor as the S series. Will the EVA2 drop out of the Professional Cinema lineup to the Lumix side?

I think the Varicams will go full-frame with L-mount, with mount choices like PL, and LPL.
 
Kevin Kelly said:
What Panasonic will do in the future is hard to predict. Sources say Panasonic will not have an APS-C sensor in the L-mount (https://phototrend.fr/2020/04/interview-yosuke-yamane-panasonic-japon-mars-2020/ and https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-...ps-c-l-mount-is-on-the-roadmap/#disqus_thread). Not sure if that just means the Lumix division?

Where does that leave a future EVA2? Does it go full-frame, or to micro4/3? (I'd be very surprised if any manufacturer came out with a new camera having an EF mount.) If it stays in the Professional line-up, I would say L-mount with the same sensor as the S series. Will the EVA2 drop out of the Professional Cinema lineup to the Lumix side?

I think the Varicams will go full-frame with L-mount, with mount choices like PL, and LPL.
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Doesn't make sense for there to be an APS-C stills camera in the near/mid term future for Panasonic. Overlaps too much with their FF and their MFT cameras.

Panasonic is taking the same approach as Fuji, not bringing out cameras only a stop apart, but rather spacing them out a full two stops apart.

Fuji: Medium Format vs APS-C
Panasonic: FF vs MFT

Panasonic isn't making an ASP-C stills camera any more than Fuji will be making a FF stills camera.
 
My feeling is that if there were to be a FF version of the EVA the one feature that would be very important would be to have an excellent continuous AF system that would work for both interviews and for run-and-gun shooting. I'd never been much of an AF fan - hence the EVA1's limited AF functionality was not an issue for me - but times that I've worked multicam interviews with FX9s shooting FF (and fewer operators than cameras shooting) having continuous AF to follow a leaning subject on a sometimes unmanned CU has proved mandatory. Given the price range of the EVA series and the features of the newer competing cameras, not having a stellar continuous AF capability would be a significant problem, particularly with the reduced DOF produced from a FF sensor.
 
Agreed. Makes more sense to put stellar autofocus in an EVA2 than in a Varicam successor.

And if they go FF it is especially important. So the EVA2 could just stick with S35 I reckon
 
Our main video formats right now:

2/3” - everything from cellphones to B4 mount cameras, and maybe gopros
S16 - living on in the film revival, as the grain is now in vogue. Few digital cameras in native format.
M43 - Very compact, even cheaper. Panasonic and Olympus taking on am interesting sum of averages. Nice even half FF35 fov.
S35 -
APS-C (and what're Nikon had)
APS-H
FF35
65
Medium Format



My personal favourite is APS-H. Is a dream with FF35 glass, using just the best parts of the image circle, while retaining some of the perceived sharpness. Kind of a nice compromise in dof characteristics and sharpness.

If i had to pick 3 formats, i’d maybe go:

S16
APS-H
Medium Format


FF35 does nothing for me. Just adds complications in holding focus, rolling shutter, vignetting, larger zooms, etc. APS-H gets near the same results with a little extra elbow room. Otherwise, i’d take s35 over FF35 any day. At the other end, i think Medium Format brings a whole range of creative options, that really distinguish it from s35.

Choosing between 2/3” and s16 is pretty difficult. B4 zooms are pretty cool. It’s like the iPod of traditional lenses. Everyone else has a huge tape and CD collection, but i got 1000 songs in mp3 in my bag! That said, aesthetically, i like the dof control and wide angle performance on s16 a bit better. So, just personally, i like s16, but practically speaking, i can’t really imagine a world without 2/3”.

So, my choices are pretty lop sided.

If i had to pick a more practical three, i’d go 2/3”, s35, Medium Format. As these are very distinct groups with little overlap.


M43 and FF35 are an interesting pair. As the 2x crop difference allows for easy math. They compliment eachother well. If i liked the way that primes felt on FF35 in 16:9 aspect ratio, maybe i’d love the practicality of how versatile two formats like these would be. Panasonic has a dynamic system they are entering. Not traditional for motion, but very very interesting....

... on the one hand, m43 is more compact than s35 and has more dof control than 2/3”, yet on the other hand,,,
M43 is much larger than 2/3” while having that significant drop in dof control from s35.

Similar for FF35, it has access to decades of full frame glass, incredible range of dof, lenses feel a little sharper with less engineering magic behind them, yet, the dof can be annoying without adding siginificant advantages over s35, at least not in the same way Medium Format might.

... that easy math of 2x crop is kind of nice though, when using two systems.

So we’ll see. Can M43 and FF35 replace 2/3” and s35/APS-C? Should they? And if they can’t we can just be happy with having so many creative options, haha.

But, yeah, i pretty much personaly dislike the way 16:9 FF35 treats focal lengths. Though, that is not saying it is bad, just my personal preference is for the way focal lengths fall into place on s35 or APS-H.
 
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James0b57 said:
M43 and FF35 are an interesting pair. As the 2x crop difference allows for easy math. They compliment eachother well. If i liked the way that primes felt on FF35 in 16:9 aspect ratio, maybe i’d love the practicality of how versatile two formats like these would be. Panasonic has a dynamic system they are entering. Not traditional for motion, but very very interesting....

... on the one hand, m43 is more compact than s35 and has more dof control than 2/3”, yet on the other hand,,,
M43 is much larger than 2/3” while having that significant drop in dof control from s35.

Similar for FF35, it has access to decades of full frame glass, incredible range of dof, lenses feel a little sharper with less engineering magic behind them, yet, the dof can be annoying without adding siginificant advantages over s35, at least not in the same way Medium Format might.

... that easy math of 2x crop is kind of nice though, when using two systems.
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That's the long term strategy both Fuji and Panasonic have embraced. They've each chosen to focus on two systems which are each two stops apart.

In Fuji's case that is ASP-C & Medium Format

With Panasonic it is MFT and FF35

Both are the same distance apart, but Panasonic and Fuji have each chosen different starting/end points
 
I made a wishlist for the EVA2:

S35 sensor with dual ISO
Internal RAW and XAVC up to 4K120p,
Dual Pixel or phase detection AF in all frame rates
Image stabilisation, decent touch screen monitor

oh wait, that's what Canon presented yesterday with the C300iii
hard times for Panasonic..
 
One slight correction. Canon didn't release a sensor with Dual ISO. It's Dual Gain Output. Very different than Dual ISO.
 
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