C300: Used C300 vs. New C100 vs. New 1DC

P

Picture and Color

Member
Hi everyone,

Currently I'm in the position to consider a good deal on a used C300 ($10k). However, before I make the jump, I also want to consider my options. I've done a fair bit of research myself but would love some input from people here who have used both the C300 and the C100. The C300 is more expensive used, but I only want to get it over the 100 if it will give me tangible benefits. There's also the 1DC looming in that price range.

I've been shooting with DSLRs and did all my work last year on a trio of 5D Mark IIIs. Primarily, I shoot corporate/promotionals, weddings/events, and real estate. The Mark III is a great camera but where it's lacking for me is image detail and dynamic range. There are many situations I find myself in where an extra stop or two of dynamic range would make all the difference in the final product (e.g lighting in indoor interview where I want to maintain more of the background outside. Shooting real estate in a living room where I want to hang on to more details outside the windows). The Mark III has HDR mode with Magic Lantern (which I use) but the final image isn't quite perfect.

Also, XLR audio inputs will be fantastic. I can leave my audio field recorders like the Tascam DR-40 at home.

I've considered the BMCC but I don't think it's right for me at this stage. I do a lot of work with short turnaround time and while the BMCC's 13 stops in RAW would be lovely, I don't think the workflow requirements fit me. A canon log workflow is much more suitable I believe.

For events, I shoot primarily on the monopod and will switch to my Steadicam Pilot when necessary. The camera system needs to be light enough and compact enough to shoot all day on the monopod.

Here's a list of pros/cons I've come up with. Would love to hear if I've missed something, or if you have real world experience that can add to these.

Used C300 ($10k):

- Proven picture quality. 50Mbit codec. Rave reviews all round. Hard to go wrong with this.
- Good viewfinder. Bigger LCD, but not attached to body.
- No microphone, so I will always need to attach one of my Rodes.
- Less compact. 15% bigger than C100 and if I remove the handle, I lose my LCD. Is the viewfinder good enough to use all day?
- Takes CF cards. Good.
- HDSDI, though in all honesty I would likely never used this. Am I paying extra for features I never use?


New C100 ($6500):

- Unproven picture quality. It's supposed to be the same sensor but does the 24Mbit hurt the final image? Is it less gradable in post? I haven't seen a review directly comparing the two.
- I'm told the built in EVF is crippled and useless. However, it does have the screen on the back so I can use it like a DSLR. And Zacuto is coming with it's C100 Z Finder which I would love.
- More compact. Possibly better to use on the monopod? I can even remove the mic handle and use it exactly like a DSLR.
- Built in mic on the handle.
- Does not take CF cards. Not as good.
- I guess I can buy a Atomos Ninja2 to record externally for shoots where I know I will be doing a lot of color correction and grading, but I think this will be more bulky and cumbersome than it's worth and I will end up leaving it at home.

New 1DC ($12k):

- 4K! Obviously. But I saw samples of the S35 Full HD mode and it looks STUNNING. So, so much more detailed than the 1DX/Mark III and likely the mode I will use most often.
- I get a 1DX stills camera built in.
- Weather sealing. Sometimes I am forced to shoot in the rain. This is great.
- I can use it like a DSLR, cause it is a DSLR.
- 12.5 stops of dynamic range claimed. This sounds right up there with the C300. Great!
- No XLR inputs unlike the other two.
- No waveform and scopes. Not sure if this will matter for me or not.

Ok, so my specific questions:

- How is the built in EVF on the C300? Can I use it all day the way I use a Mark III with a Zacuto Z finder?
- How compact is the C300? Is it small and tight enough to use all day on a monopod like a DSLR? Especially with the bulky handle with LCD? I'm quite certain that the C100 can be used DSLR-like, but can the bigger 300 do it too?
- How does the 24Mbit image of the C100 compare to the 50Mbit C300? Am I actually losing any real world picture quality?
- Anything else I may have missed?
- Besides audio inputs and waveform capabilities, is there anything that the C300 offers above the 1DC in terms of picture quality? Everything seems to suggest the 1DC as the ultimate picture quality Canon cinema camera (besides C500 of course). Maybe I should save money for that instead.

I'm going to check out the used C300 this weekend which will hopefully answer some of my burning questions. Just wanted to start this discussion in the meantime in case there are questions I've missed.

While I think 10k is a good deal for a used C300, the difference in price between that and a new C100 is still 3500. Not massive, but 3500 will get me a set of lights, or more audio gear, or an extra Mark III body with change. It makes a difference to me. Also, getting either may deprive me of getting a new 1DC this year... which to be honest... might be the ultimate choice.

Decisions, decisions...

Thanks for any and all assistance!

Sam
pictureandcolor.com
 
get the c100, save those money for lens and stuff.

For the job you are doing, I dont see anywhere the need for spending that extra money for C300 and 1DC.

go for accessories instead.
 
Bite the bullet on the C300, especially if you're getting a great price on it. Trust me, you won't regret it. The C300 is far and away better than the C100 in terms of image quality and functionality. I've got both here at the studio, and I'm continually amazed at how much better the footage from the C300 holds up for color grading and effects in comparison to the C100. That's not to say that the latter is not a great camera, because it absolutely is, but the short answer is that yes there's a pretty sizable difference between the C300's 50mb MPEG-2 4:2:2 codec vs. the C100's AVCHD 24mb 4:2:0 codec.

As far as ergonomics, both cameras are so well designed that the size difference between the two cameras is negligible. You'll be just as surprised how light and easy to wield the C300 is vs. the C100 if you've never had extensive experience with either prior. Both are usable on monopods with no extra peripherals, and the handle on the C300 and C100 are detachable -- the difference being that if you detach the C100 handle you lose your XLR ports where as the XLR ports on the C300 are attached to the flip out monitor peripheral, which can be mounted to the camera's hot shoe in place of the handle.

The EVF on the C300 is 1000x better than the EVF on the C100. The C100's EVF is unusable as far as I'm concerned, where as the C300 you could probably spend an entire day looking through it with no problem (although I wouldn't recommend it).

As for the 1DC -- I would never, ever go back to DSLR shooting after shooting on the C300 regardless of 4K capability. The C300 is my favorite camera ever. Great form factor, great image, easy to use, plug and play standard workflow -- it's got everything I need for the type of shooting I do and I feel it'll do the same thing for you. And from the footage/films I've seen of the 1DC, its image is no sharper or better than the C300's.
 
C300, you wont have macro blocks flying around in your colour channels like with the C100.
 
Just to add - C300 is a super hot rental camera right now (just sayin') and I'm betting it will hold it's value better than any of the current crop of cams. (I guess that's not saying much these days though...)
 
Do you NEED to make this switch right now? Im assuming that it something you probably need to move on considering the excellent deal you're getting on the used C300? For $10k its a steal.

Check the C300 is suitable for you on weight and size first. If it doesnt suit the way you work on that, then you've eliminated 1. But 10K is an excellent price - depending on the condition of the camera of course. May well have been used in the desert for three months.
 
If you don't think that you will be using hdsdi in your workflow at all, c300 may be overkill. Sounds like you have to rent something to see what you like. I thought the atomos would be cumbersome until I actually used it. Its really no different than a c300 with monitor. 1dc realize that you are paying for one of the best stills camera. If you aren't taking challenging stills on top of video than its a waste. But it sounds like for your final outputs nothing from the c300 or 1dc will look substantially better than the c100.
 
Thanks for all the input, guys. Sean Finnegan, your post was especially helpful. Glad to hear that you have experience with both and still see a big difference in the C300. Also thanks for the note about the monitor/audio unit actually being separate from the handle. I didn't realize this! This makes the C300 more compact when I can not bring the handle along.

Noel, I suppose I don't *need* to make this switch right now, as the Mark IIIs are working fine if a little muddy in detail and a little lacking in DR. I only really started thinking about the C300 seriously when this used one popped up.

Guess next step is to go check out the camera and make sure it wasn't used for 3 months in the desert. ;)

Sam
 
If you're editing with FCP or Avid, there is no easier workflow than shooting in ProRes or DNXhD with the Blackmagic Camera (and I'm not sure, but I'd bet Premiere works fine with those codecs as well). You can shoot in log, and have a 10bit 422 codec to grade with. So if that's your only concern with the BMCC than I would go with that. Otherwise, I don't have enough experience with the C100 to give you a good recommendation, but C300 is a great camera.For what you're doing though, I don't think you will be needing to do any extensive grading, and if you haven't had any problems with grading the 5Ds you have been using, then you shouldn't have any problems with the C100.
 
Cory Braun said:
If you're editing with FCP or Avid, there is no easier workflow than shooting in ProRes or DNXhD with the Blackmagic Camera (and I'm not sure, but I'd bet Premiere works fine with those codecs as well). You can shoot in log, and have a 10bit 422 codec to grade with. So if that's your only concern with the BMCC than I would go with that.
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Except shooting on a C100 with a Ninja-2 which also gives you ProRes 4:2:2, Log gamma, XLR connections, and built-in NDs.
 
Gary Huff said:
Except shooting on a C100 with a Ninja-2 which also gives you ProRes 4:2:2, Log gamma, XLR connections, and built-in NDs.
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Yea, but after you get the Ninja and HDDs or SSDs it's only going to be around $2300 less than the C300 that he's looking at. At that point, I'd just spend the extra money and not have to deal with an external recorder.
 
Cory Braun said:
Yea, but after you get the Ninja and HDDs or SSDs it's only going to be around $2300 less than the C300 that he's looking at. At that point, I'd just spend the extra money and not have to deal with an external recorder.
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I second this, you dont really need Ninja2 for C100 works

but on the other hand, I dont really think that extra $3500 is worth jump from C100 to C300 (6.5 to 10k), cuz for him C100 seems just doing fine, no need for ninjas and stuff

I even recommand him using 5D MARK iii and save the money for better lens and stuff

to be honest, if you go for C300, you have to upgrade all of your accessories, such as lens (from EFS to at least Canon L or CP2 right?), lights, audio,tripods, sliders, jibs stuff all play a big role in cinematography, which arent cheap at all right? cuz you wont throw your C300 on a cheap Jib or tripod, this is common sense.

For C100, run n gun just fine, it kills all of DSLR works for sure, and if you need HDR and RAW stuff, just go BMCC for that extra $3500, just wait for 4 months for the camera, till then you are gonna have 16 bit Raw versus C300's 8 bit.


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Im not saying C300 is bad, I know its better than C100, but you have to consider the payment he is receiving from the clients, economically, C300 isnt his first choice

but technology is moving forward, there is no need to purchase something old and used.


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Oh I forgot 1DC, yeah, just forget it.
 
lol another friend keeps telling me about these 10k C300's and I've never seen one listed... maybe I look in all the wrong places... lol
 
Picture and Color said:
Guess next step is to go check out the camera and make sure it wasn't used for 3 months in the desert.
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And even if it was, it's probably still in great condition. The C300 is a tank. Check out this video from James Longley, a documentary filmmaker who has spent the last year making a documentary on the C300 in the harsh conditions of Afghanistan.

 
Shawnvfx said:
I second this, you dont really need Ninja2 for C100 works

to be honest, if you go for C300, you have to upgrade all of your accessories, such as lens (from EFS to at least Canon L or CP2 right?), lights, audio,tripods, sliders, jibs stuff all play a big role in cinematography, which arent cheap at all right? cuz you wont throw your C300 on a cheap Jib or tripod, this is common sense.

For C100, run n gun just fine, it kills all of DSLR works for sure, and if you need HDR and RAW stuff, just go BMCC for that extra $3500, just wait for 4 months for the camera, till then you are gonna have 16 bit Raw versus C300's 8 bit.
.
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New lenses lights, audio are you serious? its the same mount and almost the same size almost everything that works for a 5d works on c100/c300.

Also c300 has a 12 bit sensor is subsampled to 8bit just like BMC will be after encoding for the web. John Brawley BMC advocate has said it himself, if you do not intend on learning davinci thoroughly, then you should buy a c100. Its really going to be a pity how manu BMC owners will not use the camera to its full capacity. If you don't know what a secondary correction, limiter, dynamic, or mixer node is then its very difficult to justify a BMC purchase.
 
Sean, thanks for posting that. The images from the Afghanistan Doc. BTS are just stunning. Very film like. Love those shots where he kept detail in both shadow and highlights... and how nicely the dark areas were rendered relatively noise free. I know a lot has to do with how he must've graded the Canon Log, but my eyes are telling me those images looks like film.
 
Thanks for the comments, shawn. These comments partially apply to me, and partially not. I've got a full range of EF-L lenses that I've been using with my Mark III, so I'm already covered there. I think if I were to get a C100/300, the only additional lens I need is an EFS 17-55 so I can cover the wide end and also have IS. I could sell one of my 24-105Ls to cover it, so I think I end up neutral there.

My Steadicam Pilot, Manfrotto 561BHDV monopods, Glideshot jib, and all the other supports should work fine with the C300 given the weight and given what others in the thread have said so far. So, again neutral for the supports.

I agree that the extra 3500 could be put to good use, but I don't think it's for stuff that's NECESSARY to operate the C300 over my 5D Mark IIIs. I really could use a set of Kino Flos but that's a different discussion. I guess the main question really is whether I get 3500 dollars worth of benefit above and beyond the C100's price.


Shawnvfx said:
I second this, you dont really need Ninja2 for C100 works

but on the other hand, I dont really think that extra $3500 is worth jump from C100 to C300 (6.5 to 10k), cuz for him C100 seems just doing fine, no need for ninjas and stuff

I even recommand him using 5D MARK iii and save the money for better lens and stuff

to be honest, if you go for C300, you have to upgrade all of your accessories, such as lens (from EFS to at least Canon L or CP2 right?), lights, audio,tripods, sliders, jibs stuff all play a big role in cinematography, which arent cheap at all right? cuz you wont throw your C300 on a cheap Jib or tripod, this is common sense.

For C100, run n gun just fine, it kills all of DSLR works for sure, and if you need HDR and RAW stuff, just go BMCC for that extra $3500, just wait for 4 months for the camera, till then you are gonna have 16 bit Raw versus C300's 8 bit.


---

Im not saying C300 is bad, I know its better than C100, but you have to consider the payment he is receiving from the clients, economically, C300 isnt his first choice

but technology is moving forward, there is no need to purchase something old and used.


---

Oh I forgot 1DC, yeah, just forget it.
Click to expand...
 
10K for C300? Just mention the source. If it is not a scam, then a lot of guys here will buy that C300 immediately. I shoot wildlife in incredibly dusty conditions in India and have no hesitation in recommending it. The C-log is easy to edit even on a Macbook Pro and FCP X. The images are pretty detailed. Buy it without any hesitation if there is no physical damage to the camera and to satisfy yourself get it cleaned by Canon service centre and firmware upgraded.
 
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