Urgent 24pa questions!!

jambredz

jambredz

Veteran
Hey guys. I shot my first commercial recently on my100b on 24pa (I THINK) it was. I'm trying to double check the footage to see and i click interpret footage in CS3 but it just gives me 23.976. i duno if its 24pa or 24p standard. Anyway thats not the real question but if u can help with that then fine.

The real issue is i really think i shot on 24pa and edited on 24p timeline, and the edited footage plays fine on mini dv. So i give it to the TV station and they say the audio and video is strobing. I know 24p inherantly strobes correct? but it shouldnt be such an issue that they cant play it?! it plays fine on my tv but i duno bout broadcast. they say there system is set up for 30fps( or for normal 60i footage). I havent gotten to personally speak with the editor down there as yet, just with some1 who really doesnt know whats this all about and is relaying the message.

So is 24pa not good to put back to tape for broadcast? i really duno about broadcast and requirements ... as its my first commercial. I thought the 24pa and standard issue was just to do with the NLE u have and how difficult it was to edit 24p standard.
Should i have shot in 24p standard and edited on 30p timeline?

I'm kinda fretting. any help would be REALLY appreciated.
 
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Typically you only need to shoot 24pa if you are ultimately outputting it 24p. In my experience it is only 24p if you are screening a "film". Most broadcast work is best shot 24p not 24pa.
 
sigh. great...now what...:(

Oh any premiere user out there can help me check to confirm if its 24pa or standard. if its standard i can put it on a 30p timeline.

edit: so i found out its 24pa. so i;m screwed then ??
is there a way to turn 24pa to 24 standard :( ? really need some help with this its pretty urgent.
btw..thanks tumbleweed
 
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No. You should shoot 24pA and edit as 24p any time you want 24p footage. You can output as anything you like after that. For broadcast, you'd simply export as 29.97 interlaced (NTSC).

You shouldn't have a problem exporting from a 24p timeline as simple NTSC DV back to Mini-DV tape. There shouldn't be any audio issues.

What exactly did you do? Did you choose 2:3:3:2 pulldown, or the AABBC (or whatever that Premiere scheme is)? If so, you should not have, not for broadcast. You should export as straight NTSC.

(If you shot 24pA and you wanted to convert it to 24p standard, the way to do it is to put it on a 24p timeilne and export as NTSC.)
 
this is my first time exporting to tape . so what i did was click file >>export >> export to tape and record in CS3. I dont see where it gives me any options for NTSC or pulldown . Do i need to go to media encoder?
 
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Well, without being able to see the issues he's referring to, or exactly what you're doing, I suggest this. -- export as DV-AVI to your computer, using NTSC (no 24p) as the template (4:3 or widescreen, whatever your project is). Play that file. If you don't see any issues, create a new Premiere NTSC project, use that clip in it, then export to tape from there.
 
yeh well after editing the footage on 24p timeline i just click file>export > export to tape it plays fine in the editor. i'll try whatu;ve suggested. thanks alot
 
When you export to tape, it doesnt matter, what you shot it at. It will play on a 60 fps rate. Or actually 59.98

If you shot it at 24PA , then applied pulldown, standard 2:3:3:2, you get rid of the frames that make up that 60 fps rate, to make it 24 fps or 23.98. To go back to 60 fps, you would have to apply reverse pulldown which wont be possible now.

You should have just shot it in 24fps mode, and edit it on a 60fps timeline. This way you get the look of 24 fps but can play back on standard tape rates.
Remember, when you shoot to tape, you are recording redundant frames, when in 24P mode. your editing software will then apply pulldown and you can choose your timeline. If you edit 24P video on a 24fps timeline, then you cant go back to tape. Going back to tape will mean that you will be recording 1 frame every 2 frames, then 1 frame every 3 frames. This will give you strobing.
But if you edit 24fps footage natively on a 60fps timeline. then you can go to tape with no problem.

Bottom line, is that if you intend to go to broadcast, you can shoot in 24fps, edit on a 60fps timeline and then export to tape. It is just easier to shoot in standard DV , edit in DV and go out to DV. Your sort of out of luck, unless you recapture, and edit as I advised. Dont know about premiere, I use FCP, but if you already captured, your stuff, create a new timeline, at 60fps, export your settings in an XML file and then apply that into your new timeline. This will recreate your edits on the new timeline, without losing anything and having to recapture everything. You can do this in FCP dont know if you can in Premiere....Hope this helps..
 
You can export from a 24p timeline as NTSC. When doing so, pulldown will be reinserted. It will be a 2:3 pulldown, just like every 24 fps film that's ever shown on NTSC TV.

You can do this with any 24p-aware NLE, including FCP.

(Note: if it were impossible to reinsert pulldown, you would not be able to preview a 24p timeline on an NTSC monitor.)
 
I did what David suggested...and i notice some loss in quality. is that normal?
Also why does it play fine on my tv from my capture cam when i exported it to tape edited on 24p timeline? its just when it went to to the station it gave probs.

exporting is puzzling to me in whatever format. frustrating shooting stuff and at the mercy of exporting. headache...bedtime...thanks for the help so far guys.
 
I certainly didn't mean to freak you out or misinform you about the 24p v 24pa. In my experience shooting 24p is the most common choice for broadcast. 24pa sounds as though it is a few extra steps. Let me just say that I do NOT do much of the actual editing, I am primarily a shooter and director. But, on all of broadcast projects that I've done, we have chosen to shoot 24p because of what was needed in the end. David has a great deal more technical knowledge than I do, so I bet he can absolutely walk you thru the paces necessary. All the best of luck.
 
yeh i know David is the man. So it seems 24pa is the best for shooting if ur gonna consider all possible exporting(broadcast, net, dvd ect) What i'm not getting is why when i export to dv avi to the computer, then drop it in an ntsc timeline and export to tape the quality is reduced. below are the settings when exporting as dv avi in cs3. (file >>export as movie)

Export
Video and audio
Entire Sequence

Filetype
Microsoft DV AVI

Video Settings
Compressor: DV NTSC
Frame size: 720h 480v (0.900)
Frame rate: 29.97 frames/second
Pixel Aspect Ratio: D1/DV NTSC (0.9)
Fields: Lower Field First

Audio Settings
Compressor: Uncompressed
Sample rate: 48000 samples/second
Channels: Stereo
Sample type: 16-bit

then i drop that into the new ntsc timeline, click file >>export>> export to tape. again, when i export to tape like this i see no options to export as ntsc, which would make like easier. maybe this should be in CS3 section with the PP heads.
 
jambredz said:
I did what David suggested...and i notice some loss in quality. is that normal?
Click to expand...

I had hoped it wouldn't be the case, but it's probably because of double compression -- it's compressed to DV twice. I hoped that because you weren't doing anything to the NTSC file you created (no FX, no edits, no anything) that it would just be a straight transfer and not another compression, but it probably was recompressed.

Also why does it play fine on my tv from my capture cam when i exported it to tape edited on 24p timeline? its just when it went to to the station it gave probs.
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Not sure. If that's the case, then the problem very likely isn't from anything you did. If the tape plays fine, then the data should be fine. Without knowing what they're doing, it's tough to know how to advise you.


exporting is puzzling to me in whatever format. frustrating shooting stuff and at the mercy of exporting. headache...bedtime...thanks for the help so far guys.
Click to expand...

It is not as easy as just pushing a button, that's for sure. There are a couple of NLEs which make it even more confusing, and Premiere, unfortunately, is one.
 
tumbleweed said:
I certainly didn't mean to freak you out or misinform you about the 24p v 24pa. In my experience shooting 24p is the most common choice for broadcast. 24pa sounds as though it is a few extra steps. Let me just say that I do NOT do much of the actual editing, I am primarily a shooter and director. But, on all of broadcast projects that I've done, we have chosen to shoot 24p because of what was needed in the end. David has a great deal more technical knowledge than I do, so I bet he can absolutely walk you thru the paces necessary. All the best of luck.
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Well, it works out to the same number of steps, usually, and when it doesn't, 24pA is the simpler way. This is especially true in FCP.

There are many who will say that if you're shooting for broadcast, shoot 24p standard and edit 29.97. And you CAN do this, but consider . . . I always use my "local car commercial" example. A lot of local car dealerships, all over the place, had commercials made by people who got ahold of the DVX or XL2 or other prosumer 24p camera. They shot 24p standard and edited as 29.97. So, of course, they add text, often motion text, and include moving picture-in-picture and even animated transitions. All of that stuff includes motion at the 59.94 rate, whereas the motion of the underlying footage is still at 23.976 in terms of motion. The result is awful. It's a mish-mash of different motion cadences.

Not to mention that if you do a fade or a dissolve, that transition will be stepped out at 59.94 while the footage is moving at 23.976. Over a long transition, it won't be that bad, but if you do a short one, you can really see the motion clash.

So, you CAN see a lot of this in cheaply-made local commercials, especially from the around the time when the DVX first started getting popular. But you can also see the terrible clashing of the text, etc., in some mid-80s TV shows which were shot on 24 fps film but edited entirely on a 29.97 linear tape system. And, it's something you never see on movies shown on TV, because those were all edited at 24 or 23.976 fps.

I'm just saying -- edit at the native timebase of the footage. You run far less risk of it looking bad because of the above, and you retain all options for export.
 
jambredz said:
heres an example of the both files.

first up is what i delivered....and next up is the dv avi thing david suggested. (watch in HD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o31JbFwaH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJnsWJCSAxE background looks like its shivering

i'm beginning to think sumthing they are doin is messing with it. as i said i havent gotten a chance to speak with the editor or even see how it plays there. I will def try and see whats up today.
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The first one looks fine -- and it's pretty good! If you gave that to them, not sure what the problem could be.

The second one -- is that what the AVI file looked like directly from the timeline?

EDIT: When you brought the NTSC AVI back into Premiere, was it an NTSC (29.97) Sequence?
 
David Jimerson said:
The first one looks fine -- and it's pretty good! If you gave that to them, not sure what the problem could be.
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Thanks ...they really liked it.

David Jimerson said:
The second one -- is that what the AVI file looked like directly from the timeline?
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thats how it looks after i exported to movie (microscoft DV avi where i changed compressor options from dv 24p(advanced) to DV NTSC). So it looked like that B4 i put it into the new NTSC timeline So the new timeline doesnt have anything to do with it it seems.

David Jimerson said:
EDIT: When you brought the NTSC AVI back into Premiere, was it an NTSC (29.97) Sequence?
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yup
 
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Gaburbano said:
When you export to tape, it doesnt matter, what you shot it at. It will play on a 60 fps rate. Or actually 59.98
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:huh:

You do realize that 60 is not the NTSC frame rate, right? It's 29.97, based on 30 frames per second minus the 0.03 frames per second where the color information is stored. 60 is the field count: 2 fields per frame X 30 frames = 60 interlaced fields, or 60i.
 
I've been fighting Premiere CS3 lately myself in exporting back to tape. It's all 24pA on 23.976 timeline. Any Export to Tape from a 24p timeline seems to be outputting 24pA ONLY. I double-checked by re-capturing and checking the file out in After Effects. Even Export Movie to DV-AVI NTSC 29.97 outputted wrong, it repeated one full frame per five. That's not even standard 24pA, but it's close. Certainly not 24p.

What I had to do to get out to tape was bring it into After Effects and output my 24p DV-AVI from there, since it does output the fields properly.
 
David Jimerson said:
You can output as anything you like after that. For broadcast, you'd simply export as 29.97 interlaced (NTSC).

You shouldn't have a problem exporting from a 24p timeline as simple NTSC DV back to Mini-DV tape. There shouldn't be any audio issues.
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U said this to me earlier on ...how does one do that in CS3? cuz i'm sure that would alleviate this prob. The first delivery i gave them was edited on 24p timeline and just exported to tape. Because it was exported to tape does that mean its 29.97 interlaced?? cuz i dont see any options to make it ntsc except when i export as movie ( microsoft dv avi). And we saw how that turned out.
 
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