1DC: Upgrade Advice - 1DC vs. C300

Elizabeth,

First. Greetings to you and the the hometown folks in the flower city, the city that was the imaging capital of the world at one time.

I work with clients who have both Sony and Canon cameras. The C300 is a workhorse and is very popular still for production - because it does make great images that are easy to deal with in post. That said from my position it is at its zenith, demand is slowing now and the camera is showing its age. 8bit, no 4k, no HFR... Camera tech has changed dramatically since the C300 started shipping.

In a camera like the Somy FS 7 you get HFR up to 180 FPS, 422 MPEG recording, XAVC recording and 4k compressed recording up to 60fps. 4k or 2k raw and Apple Pro Res recording are available via optional add in adapter from Sony. The camera has a very shallow flange depth which provides the ability to place native E mount, EF mount with adapter, and PL mount lenses with adapter on the camera body. At $7999 the camera comes with viewfinder and right side grip handle modeled after an Aaton hand grip. It has a small built in shoulder pad so for certain work you don't even need a 3rd party shoulder rig.

I don't really have a horse in the race but from my position I look at where the future is going. Every manufacturer is coming with 4k. Smart phones are getting 4k... Not that that should be the reason for you to have it but 1 year from now it maybe what clients ask for and without it you will be limited to some extent. Imagine having a shoot with corporate CEO. They give the director 20 -30 minutes including hair, makeup and lighting before the interview. You get one shot and one shot only... Shoot a bit wide and be able to output the wide shot and crop for close up from same shot... As an hd deliverable.

I realize that the timing of the work that you want to use a c300 camera on is just around the corner so getting in line for Sony camera now, or waiting for next gen C300 might not be good timing but be sure to take into consideration where the camera tech is now and what feature sets will give you greater creative opportunities for the future for your growing client list.


i do have some clients looking to sell C300 cameras, including their mounting accessories / shoulder pads and hand grip set ups. It would be a great way to get a turnkey solution relatively quickly.
 
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James0b57 said:
"Stop Gap"?!


The 1DC is a completely different beast. It is an amazingly flexible tool, and one of the best all round video cameras ever made to date. FF35, APSH, and s35 in one body. And a form factor that surpasses and is different from the overrated c300 form. The 1DC at its base form is a far superior platform than the C300.

The 1DC is amazing. If they issued a version II, I will probably get that too.
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I had to give up my 1Dc to buy the C300, as I didn't have budget for two cinema cameras and because of broadcast requirements.

The 1Dc is a very underrated camera. The 1.3 crop of the 1D c is very nice.

And soon we are moving into an era when clients will ask 4K even though they won't need it. So for those situations the 1Dc has the 4k bragging rights. In that respect, it is ahead of the C300. Lack of waveform and zebras is not a problem for you, since you know how to shoot with a 5D.
 
Elizabeth - I have C300's and 1DX's (photographer still doing stills but with video/filmmaking having overtaken it). The C300's are quick to use, extremely reliable and great quality. The new C100 Mark II is worth looking at, I've spent some time with it, if you can live within its limitations. If you need the internal higher bit rate (I do as I push my stuff a lot in post), SDI, Timecode (I have needed this), and flexibility of placing the included monitor where you want it then those would be reasons for the C300 over it.

It is hard to go back to dslr after using C100/300 style camera but that's not to say that the dslr format does not have its place. It does.

So far - my clients have no interest in 4k. Most work goes to the web, some goes to TV but 4k is still not the radar for those clients.

Sony FS7, mentioned upthread, looks to be nice, had it on my shoulder for a few minutes at Photo Plus but... those trying to use it with non-Sony lenses or even some Sony lenses are having issues and the firmware looks to be very buggy. Users are also finding that they need to build it out for shoulder use despite the more shoulder-friendly design.

Lots of info here: http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/11/21/sony-and-metabones-issue-new-firmware-to-address-fs7-issues/ , http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/11/...abones-ef-adapter-problem-and-best-solutions/ , http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/11/...1-the-joy-of-a-mount-and-the-pain-of-e-mount/ , and http://www.anticipatemedia.com/blog...-with-the-news-sony-pxw-fs7-4k-super35-camera .

It does seem like there will be C300 Mark II come NAB but if you have paying jobs booked between now and then (or beyond then because an announcement at NAB may take 4-6 months or more to be readily available) and it pays to own vs. rent then it pays to own.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
The C100 mk II is a very soild choice for any type of work now, and it will last quite a bit. The Sony FS7 is also great and will last a few years popular. I wouldn't invest in neither a C300 or a 1Dc because they are nearly at the end of their life cycle, they woll depreciate greatly the moment a new model comes out at NAB or so. I'd look at the new C100 mk II or Sony FS7. Both great video cameras. And adapting from a DSLR to a C100 is not as weird as you may think, it's essentially a bigger better DSLR with all the things you missed.
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For what it's worth I completely agree with you Ebrahim. Having used the 5d3 for the past year then getting a C100 a month ago. The C100 is effortless!!! I take her out for lunch and go over the menu and buttons so I can get familiar with the thing and after 5 minutes I get bored and put it back in the bag..... the "push auto iris" button is priceless! Screwing with the settings on the 5D3 after having changed them all shooting photos there is always something I forget to do. The C100 just works without the worry.

If I were Elizabeth I would buy the C100 MK II and a Ninja Blade, it will give you the same image and a better monitor than the C300 for $6500.00...... all most half the price of the current C300....... I don't think the C300's prestigious reputation over the C100 mk II is worth paying double the price.

I thought I liked DSLR's too. I am pretty comfortable with the 5D3 now. However, you don't realize what your missing until you get a C100 and move up from the DSLR thing...... it's kinda hard to go back to that.

Now if I want to do a quick video I always grab the C100 rather than the 5D3. The 5D3 is great on a tripod where you can focus and let it run, and if that's how you use DSLR's then no problem..... but for any kinda run and gun the full frame DSLR's are very hard to focus, and you'll have this same problem with the 1DC.

I guess the question is do you need 4K video with the 1DC or not..... if you need 4K then get the 1DC, if you don't then the difference between the C100 and C300 is only the price. However it looks like the 1DC is being discontinued and I don't think it is all that future proof, since that is your main consideration in ruling out the C100.

From what I understand the 4K storage on the 1DC is a problem and a considerable investment. Where as the GH4 has more manageable files.

Just think you can but two C100's for the price of one C300....... and the IQ will be the same!
 
Just want to say, that if she has paying gigs now, than the C100 or C100mkII are very good choices. They are fun cameras to use, and get great images. The internal ND alone is enough to make a case for the C100 over a 1DC. ND filters and mattebox is definitely not as simple as a switch.

But 1DC, as a concept platform, is superior to the C300 concept. But i am talking in concepts here. The present reality is that for video, the C100/C300 are better all around... Presently. But no denying that the 1dc 4k and s35HD blow the C100/C300 out of the water! Hands down, no contest.

Also, i find the LCD on the back of the 1DC allows one to expose from the monitor, but the LCD on the C300 was disconcerting and i needed the waveforms for every shot. Though, the 1DC would benefit greatly from live waveforms.
 
While i largely agree with Michael, as I think the c100 mkII may be the OP's best option. I will just say that right there. Take that to the bank.


however, on some of Michaels finer points about somethings i just want to shed a different light on.

C300 has a grainy image at all iso's. I found this off putting. But some may like it, and a quick light denoise can fix that.

Dslr form factor is superior in shape, but no one has incorporated ND filters into that shape yet.

The wide girth of the c300 is mot for everyone. I would prefer a dslr with a handle add on, than a box with a handle. I hate the real estate of how bulky it is to pack a C300. A 1dc can pack so small it is amazing.

Focusing on a DSLR is not more difficult. The 1DC has a perfect s35 (16:9) crop with better HD. You can also map the focus mag button to the right hand side and make quick work of focus. Though being able to mag-focus during record on the c100 is great.

overall the c100mkII is the better video camera, but i still don't like the platform. It is not a compact dslr form, and it is not a native shoulder/buttstock form. This may be a great compromise to some, but is "neither here nor there" design to me. But until dslr's further mature, it is the best small form s35 fully functional video camera out there.
 
The issue with the 1DC is that they decided to glue a professional sports photography camera to a cinema/video camera, two very different markets. When I buy a cinema camera I don't want to pay for 12fps and state of the art AF system and all these 6000$ stills quality. It would have made much more sense to make the cinema DSLR with a cheaper and less specialized photography body, like a 7D or 5D not the 1Dx because a 7D or 5D stills ability is more than we need as video shooters. And to be honest I would even remove the photography emphasiz and make a true video oeiented camera with the same shape as the 1DC. Taking out the mirror leaves a large place for an ND filter wheel from the C300, and replacing the OVF with a high quality EVF, making the screen articulate, all of these can be done without changing the form factor, plus remove expensive stills technologies like 14fps shutter and 61 AF point AF system and make it a normal quality stills shooter. This would make them able to lower the price bracket to the 6K range, something like a cinema 5D rather than a cinema 1Dx, that would be a successful product!

I still believe the 1DC 4K image is the best I've ever shot yet, and I've shot with alexa and Epics. I think it's that special. Just wish it didn't have a 7K sports camera stuck to it that I'll never use!
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
The issue with the 1DC is that they decided to glue a professional sports photography camera to a cinema/video camera, two very different markets. When I buy a cinema camera I don't want to pay for 12fps and state of the art AF system and all these 6000$ stills quality. It would have made much more sense to make the cinema DSLR with a cheaper and less specialized photography body, like a 7D or 5D not the 1Dx because a 7D or 5D stills ability is more than we need as video shooters. And to be honest I would even remove the photography emphasiz and make a true video oeiented camera with the same shape as the 1DC. Taking out the mirror leaves a large place for an ND filter wheel from the C300, and replacing the OVF with a high quality EVF, making the screen articulate, all of these can be done without changing the form factor, plus remove expensive stills technologies like 14fps shutter and 61 AF point AF system and make it a normal quality stills shooter. This would make them able to lower the price bracket to the 6K range, something like a cinema 5D rather than a cinema 1Dx, that would be a successful product!

I still believe the 1DC 4K image is the best I've ever shot yet, and I've shot with alexa and Epics. I think it's that special. Just wish it didn't have a 7K sports camera stuck to it that I'll never use!
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Now you're talking my language!

Yes, I agree one hundred percent. Canon could relatively easily swap out the 12fps mirror system (only does 14fps in lockup), for a more basic mirror system + an ND filter. They should go that extra step and differentiate the X and C cameras a little further.

Though the latitude doesn't match the Alexa or Epic, there is something stunning in the roll off and color science in 4K. It really is magical. Exceptional results straight from the camera.

even in 1080:
04 by onesielaff, on Flickr

but 4K goes that extra richness:
05 by onesielaff, on Flickr

I love how I can have this for all those family moments.
 
James0b57 said:
"Stop Gap"?!


The 1DC is a completely different beast. It is an amazingly flexible tool, and one of the best all round video cameras ever made to date. FF35, APSH, and s35 in one body. And a form factor that surpasses and is different from the overrated c300 form. The 1DC at its base form is a far superior platform than the C300.

The 1DC is amazing. If they issued a version II, I will probably get that too.
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C300 form factor overrated? I agree with you 1,000%

But the 1DC being a good form factor? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, bro. Like I said, it has it's uses, like if you need to stick a camera where a normal camera won't go… But I need a camera with those capabilities such a fractionally small percentage of the time(probably less than 1%) they're not even on my radar. I want a camera that sits on my shoulder without having to use 10 lbs of milled aluminum from an overpriced erector set.

To each, his own...
 
Run&Gun said:
I want a camera that sits on my shoulder without having to use 10 lbs of milled aluminum from an overpriced erector set.

To each, his own...
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Hey now, I never said shoulder mount was not good. I said a camera should either be small enough or large enough. The C300 is in the awkward middle. I love a good ergonomic shoulder mount camera. I also like a smaller footprint for less formal occasions, such as documentary or personal events or daily walk a bouts.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
The issue with the 1DC is that they decided to glue a professional sports photography camera to a cinema/video camera, two very different markets.
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One man's issue is another man's feature. The stills/video hybrid camera concept is what makes the 1Dc for me. If you don't need the stills part, surely there are plenty of options out there?

Then again, maybe not. 1.28x crop with lots of resolving power and good low light performance. I think that's the key for me: unsharpened well resolved images. Not the kind of hyper detail you get when you put halos around everything.

Anyway, I need the stills camera part, but I totally agree that there is lots of innovation left in terms of including NDs and maybe beefing up the mount. Also documented elsewhere, Canon has lots of possibilities on the software side.

If Canon chooses not to make a 1Dc mkII, it's a pity, but it will probably make the 1Dc hold its value very well. At least for some time to come.

But like you say: a 3Dc, or 5Dc to flirt with history, with dual pixel AF and NDs coming in at $6500-$7500 would find its users.
 
AndreeOnline said:
One man's issue is another man's feature. The stills/video hybrid camera concept is what makes the 1Dc for me. If you don't need the stills part, surely there are plenty of options out there?

Then again, maybe not. 1.28x crop with lots of resolving power and good low light performance. I think that's the key for me: unsharpened well resolved images. Not the kind of hyper detail you get when you put halos around everything.

Anyway, I need the stills camera part, but I totally agree that there is lots of innovation left in terms of including NDs and maybe beefing up the mount. Also documented elsewhere, Canon has lots of possibilities on the software side.

If Canon chooses not to make a 1Dc mkII, it's a pity, but it will probably make the 1Dc hold its value very well. At least for some time to come.

But like you say: a 3Dc, or 5Dc to flirt with history, with dual pixel AF and NDs coming in at $6500-$7500 would find its users.
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Well put. Even though I lean towards the cinema side of things, I definitely feel the small fee of having a professional stills camera hybrid is worth it. Omitting the mirror mechanism and AF, would not drop the price enough. I just hope they would really see the continued potential of this very exciting tool. And if they don't the 1DC will hold it's value for those that already own one. It would also be cool to have one in a 5d tier product, but I do love the feel of the 1DC body. I just enjoy holding it. I wish the handle was slightly more angled.
 
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1D C renders very nice colours, if you watched the video that compares 12 cameras, 1D C is one of few that closely matches the Alexa colour (accurate red).
 
James0b57 said:
While i largely agree with Michael, as I think the c100 mkII may be the OP's best option. I will just say that right there. Take that to the bank.


however, on some of Michaels finer points about somethings i just want to shed a different light on.

C300 has a grainy image at all iso's. I found this off putting. But some may like it, and a quick light denoise can fix that.

Dslr form factor is superior in shape, but no one has incorporated ND filters into that shape yet.

The wide girth of the c300 is mot for everyone. I would prefer a dslr with a handle add on, than a box with a handle. I hate the real estate of how bulky it is to pack a C300. A 1dc can pack so small it is amazing.

Focusing on a DSLR is not more difficult. The 1DC has a perfect s35 (16:9) crop with better HD. You can also map the focus mag button to the right hand side and make quick work of focus. Though being able to mag-focus during record on the c100 is great.

overall the c100mkII is the better video camera, but i still don't like the platform. It is not a compact dslr form, and it is not a native shoulder/buttstock form. This may be a great compromise to some, but is "neither here nor there" design to me. But until dslr's further mature, it is the best small form s35 fully functional video camera out there.
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Oh sorry, I got the 1DX and the 1DC mixed up. I thought the 1Dc had the FF sensor, but it has the Super 35. Strike my comments from the records. That said, I do find focusing on the 5D3 with fast glass harder to do than on the C100..... then again maybe I'm imagining things.

I'm just one of those guys who really like the ergonomics of the C100 over the 5D3...... all the buttons are at your finger tips, but on DSLR's you have to constantly dig through the menus, and at least for me there is always something I forget to do, that at times, has been disastrous!

I'm not a professional in the sense I work for clients, I just work for myself. I know it's been said many times before but, I have noticed people are more impressed with a larger camera. I don't know but, I could well imagine showing up for a gig with a GH4 might not gain the confidence of your clients the same way as with a C series. You might have a lot of explaining to do.... ha ha! The 1DC is a bit larger than the GH4 but it still looks like a photo camera. However, if you are Phillip Bloom you can show up with a Barbie Cam..... in fact I think he did once.

The girth the C100 is kinda relative depending on which lens you use ( I'm assuming the 1Dc is about the same size as the 5D3 with a battery grip). I can detach the handle and it fits comfortably into the bag that came with my 5D3 from B&H. With the 5D3 ergonomics I'm always afraid I will drop it, but with the C100 the hand grip is added insurance and I worry less about that.

Also a consideration with DSLR's is the run time of 29 minutes, this has been a major pain in the ass when it comes to shooting a live performance, or an interview. I don't know what the run time is on the 1DC, but in 4K a 64GB card will only give you 16 minutes or so. With other formats I don't know if the IQ is that much better than the C100 with the Blade. You mention a grainy Image of the C300, that sounds pretty serious, and if that were the case I wonder why it is such a popular cam. I haven't noticed that in the C100, but then again perhaps I'm not looking at it with a trained eye.

Another issue with DSLR's in particular the 5D3 is over heating, I don't know if this is a problem with the 1DC or not. I have Magic lantern and within 10 or 15 minutes the temp hits 50 c and turns red...... knowing I've got another hour to shoot this is quite disconcerting.

The trade off for a camera that is ever so slightly bigger isn't worth it to me. I can always go buy a Panasonic LX-100 for cheap if I want to not deal with a larger camera.

I know for you professionals you get tired of hauling around a large camera but that's not at all a concern of mine. For me I have to bring a slider, lights, tripods, and recording equipment, so a camera that is slightly larger is the last thing I care about. Just my 2-cents.
 
When comparing the 1DC to the C100/300 he most important factor is the type of shooting you will use the camera for, because as far as I am concerned they're designed for very different jobs.

What the 1DC has over the C100/300 is: Higher image quality (4K), larger sensor, best stills camera in the world, small size and light weight. So you give up all the nice C100/300 ergonomic features to get these advantages of the 1DC

While the C100/300 have over the 1DC the ergonomic body, NDs, EVF, Articulating screen, peaking, zebras. HD-SDI, XLRs, Phantom power, bigger batteries, smaller file sizes etc,

I think both make sense and have different purposes. The C100/300 feel at home on the streets shooting documentaries/news/broadcast where fast usability and small files are essential, while the 1DC will feel more comfortable at a high-end movie set where highest image quality is required without much concern with file sizes. Battery, focus, NDs, audio, because all of these are addressed with solutions anyway on movie sets. Of course I would love to get the best of both worlds, the same fullframe 4K, stills quality, and small size/weight coupled with all the C300 usability features (NDs, audio, battery, SDI, expo.focus assist, EVF, articulating screen, etc) but that's pretty highly unlikely to happen!
 
Michael Thames said:
Oh sorry, I got the 1DX and the 1DC mixed up. I thought the 1Dc had the FF sensor, but it has the Super 35.
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Not nitpicking—just to clarify:

The 1Dc is a full frame camera that shoots full frame 1080p HD up to 60p. The full frame modes are pretty soft. But the 1Dc also shoots 4k at 1.28x crop (larger than S35) and it also offers a sharp S35 1080p mode up to 30p.

Additionally, you can shoot 4k internally and simultaneously record a 1080p image to an external recorder. I haven't done that myself, but I hear good things about those files (uncompressed HD 4:2:2 scaled from 4k).
 
James0b57 said:
Hey now, I never said shoulder mount was not good. I said a camera should either be small enough or large enough. The C300 is in the awkward middle. I love a good ergonomic shoulder mount camera. I also like a smaller footprint for less formal occasions, such as documentary or personal events or daily walk a bouts.
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Fair enough.

The Cx00's are basically medium format camera body designs.
 
AndreeOnline said:
Not nitpicking—just to clarify:

The 1Dc is a full frame camera that shoots full frame 1080p HD up to 60p. The full frame modes are pretty soft. But the 1Dc also shoots 4k at 1.28x crop (larger than S35) and it also offers a sharp S35 1080p mode up to 30p.

Additionally, you can shoot 4k internally and simultaneously record a 1080p image to an external recorder. I haven't done that myself, but I hear good things about those files (uncompressed HD 4:2:2 scaled from 4k).
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Thanks for the clarification.
 
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