TRON Legacy

David Jimerson said:
Just happened to find this in a different thread:



:)
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And I would argue the film didn't accomplish what it set out to do very well...I think Tron Legacy WAS trying to be something more than mindless eye candy, but failed due to poor storytelling.
 
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Batutta said:
And I would argue the film didn't accomplish what it set out to do very well...I think Tron Legacy WAS trying to be something more than mindless eye candy, but failed due to poor storytelling.
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I would probably agree with that statement. That being said, it was some pretty sweet eye candy.
 
I watched the original Tron on blu-ray, uncertain about how it would hold up as I hadn't seen it in a long time, and I have to say it gave me much more pleasure than the sequel. I even prefer the look of the original over the sequel. It's just more interesting to look at, and more colorful. Legacy, by being more realistic, was somehow less plausible. Not a perfect film but, on a basic entertainment level I had a lot more fun watching it again. The blu-ray looks fantastic as well.
 
Batutta said:
I watched the original Tron on blu-ray, uncertain about how it would hold up as I hadn't seen it in a long time, and I have to say it gave me much more pleasure than the sequel. I even prefer the look of the original over the sequel. It's just more interesting to look at, and more colorful. Legacy, by being more realistic, was somehow less plausible. Not a perfect film but, on a basic entertainment level I had a lot more fun watching it again. The blu-ray looks fantastic as well.
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I think part of the magic of the original Tron, along with similarly AI or robot themed sci-fi films of that time like Terminator, is that back then computers were able to have that aura of mystery and infinite possibilities due to the fact that the computers of the 1980's were primitive compared to today's models. People understand computers and their capabilities, even the near future theoretical capabilities of computers much better in our high tech social media saturated society. Computers, robots, and virtual realities can't be so darn magical on film anymore. The last magical computer type of movies we got that worked was The Matrix trilogy.

I mean, could a movie like The Terminator or Tron, if both were not already long ago established franchises, be able to be made today without drastically changing their tone, stories, and overall themes? I mean, look at Transformers. The whole magical technology in those films would have worked much better back in the 80's, but now it seems so silly it doesn't even qualify as proper science fiction.

Maybe something like WarGames could still be done today, as it would actually be more plausible due to that type of AI tech being more advanced now. Although, we have no Cold War anymore, so even then it would have to be done much differently.
 
Nektonic said:
I think part of the magic of the original Tron, along with similarly AI or robot themed sci-fi films of that time like Terminator, is that back then computers were able to have that aura of mystery and infinite possibilities due to the fact that the computers of the 1980's were primitive compared to today's models. People understand computers and their capabilities, even the near future theoretical capabilities of computers much better in our high tech social media saturated society. Computers, robots, and virtual realities can't be so darn magical on film anymore. The last magical computer type of movies we got that worked was The Matrix trilogy.

I mean, could a movie like The Terminator or Tron, if both were not already long ago established franchises, be able to be made today without drastically changing their tone, stories, and overall themes? I mean, look at Transformers. The whole magical technology in those films would have worked much better back in the 80's, but now it seems so silly it doesn't even qualify as proper science fiction.

Maybe something like WarGames could still be done today, as it would actually be more plausible due to that type of AI tech being more advanced now. Although, we have no Cold War anymore, so even then it would have to be done much differently.
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Of course it could. Because cyberpunk is about philosohy and not about technology.
 
Still haven't seen Legacy (the kids have).

Granted it wasn't in 3-D, but the bit I stopped to watch in Sam's Club yesterday looked like anything but eye candy...it looked like a BBC (BBC AMerica)-produced sci-fi show. In fact, I didn't even know it was a theatrical film at first pass (had to double back).
 
Jawa Ex Machina said:
Of course it could. Because cyberpunk is about philosohy and not about technology.
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You're right, but the approach that a lot of these types of movies (Tron, Terminator, Blade Runner, The Matrix) would have to be done more carefully today than in the 80's. I am not saying that cyberpunk or post cyberpunk films shouldn't be made today. In fact, I think cyberpunk being declared a dead genre (at least in the literary science fiction world) is a mistake. Cyberpunk can be very relevant today because we sort of live in a cyberpunk world, or at least in a world were some of the predictions of cyberpunk actually became reality.

At the same time, movies from the 80's seemed to be able to sell ideas like a guy getting scanned into a computer game or a cyborg with an Austrian accent being sent back in time to carry out a mission for a super AI from the future. They were able to sell that back then, much easier than it would be to do today and still consider it science fiction and not science fantasy. The same can be said for Inception. They don't really explain how they go into other people's minds and infiltrate the person's dreams. Nolan probably figured it was not worth the screen time as the plot can still work the same without a tech lecture on dream sharing.

Once they do get into the grid in Tron Legacy, it does work better in terms of the ideas and concepts the characters discuss. Just getting there is so fantastical. I liked the film though, and don't mean to belittle it as not being worthy because it is not diamond hard sci-fi from a plausibility and logic standpoint.
 
Nektonic said:
...movies from the 80's seemed to be able to sell ideas like a guy getting scanned into a computer game or a cyborg with an Austrian accent being sent back in time to carry out a mission for a super AI from the future...
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As opposed to the municipal sewer of accent(s) that the same super AI created/built in Sam Worthington...?
 
Nektonic said:
Once they do get into the grid in Tron Legacy, it does work better in terms of the ideas and concepts the characters discuss.
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But even here I think the original is superior. They both have the same implausible concept, but once in the computer realm, Flynn in the original Tron had a mission to carry out that directly correlated with a hack program carrying out its function. The computing metaphors were more plausible. In Legacy it just seemed like any old fantasy realm with arbitrary rules.
 
Wasn't cyberpunk basically what Neal Stephenson wrote with Snowcrash, and William Gibson made even more popular with Neuromancer? Even further wasn't it pushed farther with the role-playing games Cyberpunk and Shadowrun? I am VERY familiar with all these things and don't think Terminator or Blade Runner are anything like what the universe of these books describe. Even further, I'd say The Matrix doesn't either, totally different premise. Not that aspects of the cyberpunk world don't exist in part in each of them, certainly they are lacking the major points together.

To me, from all my reading and enjoyment of cyberpunk over the years, it's about two main aspects. (1) Is larger corporations controlling the world and (2) is being jacked in to some alternate reality in the computer world that creates a duality of life.

Sadly, Johnny Mnemonic has been the only close movie to even go down this realm, and even then, the actual cyber world part of it did not play a huge role as in most of the highly regarded cyberpunk stories.

For the first time, after seeing Tron Legacy, I've seen a film that has just left a HUGE platform to really do a cyberpunk movie. Easily they could move into a future time where Sam has opening up the world to this other computer universe. Other corporations could follow suite and become so big, that it pushes down the government control. Notice in both Tron movies, there is no real government explained big or small. Granted, the huge difference would be in almost all cyberpunk worlds I've read/studied, people jack into this other reality (like matrix style), I think you could still work with the two major premises of cyberpunk, and create a really awesome movie. Certainly The Matrix has laid down the foundation of dealing with an in computer and real life story line at the same time, but this time, not with humans battling robots, but corporations and technology/turf wars.

I REALLY hope they go this way. I've wanted to see a cyberpunk movie done well for A LONG TIME!
 
Snow Crash is one of my favorite books. The problem is that so many cyberpunk ideas have been raided over the years, an actual cyberpunk movie would seem to be derivative. Also, number 1 on your list seems to already be the world we are living in. One could argue that Inception comes closest to being an actual cyberpunk movie.
 
Snowcrash is probably one of the best examples in the world of one of the best cyberpunk stories ever written IMHO. That book literally changed my life the first time I read it when I was 12 years old. One of my goals in life is to work on the Snow Crash movie one day whenever it gets made...
 
Batutta said:
Snow Crash is one of my favorite books. The problem is that so many cyberpunk ideas have been raided over the years, an actual cyberpunk movie would seem to be derivative. One could argue that Inception comes closest to being an actual cyberpunk movie.
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Yeah, Snowcrash was great. The problem with Inception is that it deals with the idea of an alternate reality per say, but it is not in a computer world, It's in someones mind. The world inside the grid of Tron is the closest thing I have seen to what I felt the original cyberpunk stories were trying to tell. Although, I also thought it would look and people would behave more like the world of Bladerunner. (From the descriptions and such in the books).

The duality of two worlds at once is definitely a huge consideration. With Inception, it was even beyond that (which was awesome to me) with the multiple levels. The Matrix dealt with it a lot when they were jacked in to the matrix while being hunted in the nebechenezzer, but it would be so awesome to have these mega-corporations at war on two fronts!!
 
Batutta said:
But even here I think the original is superior. They both have the same implausible concept, but once in the computer realm, Flynn in the original Tron had a mission to carry out that directly correlated with a hack program carrying out its function. The computing metaphors were more plausible. In Legacy it just seemed like any old fantasy realm with arbitrary rules.
Click to expand...

One thing I liked about the original Tron's grid, was that it was much more like an arcade game, while Legacy's grid was more of an actual virtual world.

I enjoyed both films, but there was definitely a shift in the way the grid was conceptualized which made Legacy very different from the original.

Rick Burnett said:
Wasn't cyberpunk basically what Neal Stephenson wrote with Snowcrash, and William Gibson made even more popular with Neuromancer? Even further wasn't it pushed farther with the role-playing games Cyberpunk and Shadowrun? I am VERY familiar with all these things and don't think Terminator or Blade Runner are anything like what the universe of these books describe. Even further, I'd say The Matrix doesn't either, totally different premise. Not that aspects of the cyberpunk world don't exist in part in each of them, certainly they are lacking the major points together.
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Yeah. I am guilty of sort of polluting the discussion in the sense that I mentioned Blade Runner and The Terminator, moreso in the sense that I was using examples of the ultra advanced computer villain that has been in so many films, and of the type used a lot at the time films like Tron, WarGames, and The Terminator were produced.

Although, Blade Runner, as well as a lot of Philip K. Dick's works are considered proto-cyberpunk works in that they influenced a lot of the cyberpunk authors and filmmakers that followed the cyberpunk genre's breakout hit Neuromancer.

As for The Matrix. It definitely has cyberpunk, along with post apocalyptic fiction, martial arts films, comic books, superheros, and all the various philosophies that make up its stew of influences. Although, in The Matrix, the machines and agents sort of take the place of traditional cyberpunk's sinister megacorporations.

To me, from all my reading and enjoyment of cyberpunk over the years, it's about two main aspects. (1) Is larger corporations controlling the world and (2) is being jacked in to some alternate reality in the computer world that creates a duality of life.

Sadly, Johnny Mnemonic has been the only close movie to even go down this realm, and even then, the actual cyber world part of it did not play a huge role as in most of the highly regarded cyberpunk stories.
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I am partial to Strange Days. I thought that one did a good job of creating the cyberpunk feel and used a lot of the elements of the genre.

For the first time, after seeing Tron Legacy, I've seen a film that has just left a HUGE platform to really do a cyberpunk movie. Easily they could move into a future time where Sam has opening up the world to this other computer universe. Other corporations could follow suite and become so big, that it pushes down the government control. Notice in both Tron movies, there is no real government explained big or small. Granted, the huge difference would be in almost all cyberpunk worlds I've read/studied, people jack into this other reality (like matrix style), I think you could still work with the two major premises of cyberpunk, and create a really awesome movie. Certainly The Matrix has laid down the foundation of dealing with an in computer and real life story line at the same time, but this time, not with humans battling robots, but corporations and technology/turf wars.

I REALLY hope they go this way. I've wanted to see a cyberpunk movie done well for A LONG TIME!
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Me too.

I think cyberpunk, shepherded by someone with knowledge of the genre's past and acknowledging current day tech and near future tech trends, could create a new cyberpunk work that is extremely relevant to today's audiences. A lot of genres rise and fall, and then come back in new forms to find relevance again. Who says it can't happen with cyberpunk?

Maybe we need another draft of cyberpunk to get it back again? Cyberpunk for the 21st Century. Neo-cyberpunk?
 
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Rick Burnett said:
Yeah, Snowcrash was great. The problem with Inception is that it deals with the idea of an alternate reality per say, but it is not in a computer world, It's in someones mind. The world inside the grid of Tron is the closest thing I have seen to what I felt the original cyberpunk stories were trying to tell. Although, I also thought it would look and people would behave more like the world of Bladerunner. (From the descriptions and such in the books).

The duality of two worlds at once is definitely a huge consideration. With Inception, it was even beyond that (which was awesome to me) with the multiple levels. The Matrix dealt with it a lot when they were jacked in to the matrix while being hunted in the nebechenezzer, but it would be so awesome to have these mega-corporations at war on two fronts!!
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That is one thing about The Matrix, that is cool and clever, but also sort of dilutes its purely cyberpunk intentions. In a traditional cyberpunk world, people willingly jack into the net or virtual worlds knowing exactly where they are going and what they are doing within this virtual context. They aren't asleep in some pod while their physical body is used as a battery for a machine.

The central question at the heart of The Matrix... would you choose the hardships of the real world or stay in the false but familiar and easier to live with reality of The Matrix? Now, I think that is a great thematic element for that film, but I find the theme of people knowingly jacking into a virtual world to escape their mundane or miserable reality, much more insidious and more true than the great philosophical question that The Matrix asks. We all do it: TV, video games, drugs, etc... but what if instead of what we have now, we have the option of escaping to a much more believable, albeit pleasant and immersive virtual reality? Add the notion that this VR world is controlled by a mega-corporation that is all about amassing wealth? That is real and scary and very reflective of the world we live in right now. It is also the kind of thing that leads back to traditional cyberpunk themes.

What is often never really done in cyberpunk films, and part of the essence of cyberpunk fiction, is that the megacorps can manipulate the economy or society with their technolgy because everyone wants it or needs it to conduct business (not unlike the internet is so necessary for us now). That is why I think cyberpunk can be so relevant. If we as filmmakers extrapolate what the net will develop into in the next 20, 30, or 50 years and beyond, then we could show what a virtual reality, augmented reality, or just much more tech reliant world will look and feel like. All of that would point back to how in the present day, we are becoming more and more reliant on information technology with each passing year.

Augmented reality is really interesting too. That hasn't been explored much in film. It is technology that is becoming much more of big deal now. Hell, I don't even think the term augmented reality even existed until more recently. AR will potentially explode into a major industry in the coming years. Any new cyberpunk works created from this point on would probably need to really take augmented reality very seriously as both an aesthetic and thematic element.
 
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Totally agree. When I used to write missions for the RPG game CyberPunk, the source material went to great lengths promoting just how important the mega corps were. In fact, the more I recall, I don't remember government having any role (or even mentioned!) in the source material. Given I still have it, I could always check :)

I can say, I played with the Nintendo 3DS with the augmented reality and it was AWESOME! I cannot wait to see that get more popular. It will be interesting to see if films start adapting that as well. I'd say, we've seen a little of it in films like IronMan, where the HUD actually does things to the live video feed, but it is never referred to as much.

Don't they have car systems that project onto windshields augmented reality stuff to help during night driving? I remember seeing this stuff YEARS ago, although it was NOT referred to as AR.
 
Rick Burnett said:
Wasn't cyberpunk basically what Neal Stephenson wrote with Snowcrash, and William Gibson made even more popular with Neuromancer? Even further wasn't it pushed farther with the role-playing games Cyberpunk and Shadowrun? I am VERY familiar with all these things and don't think Terminator or Blade Runner are anything like what the universe of these books describe. Even further, I'd say The Matrix doesn't either, totally different premise. Not that aspects of the cyberpunk world don't exist in part in each of them, certainly they are lacking the major points together.

To me, from all my reading and enjoyment of cyberpunk over the years, it's about two main aspects. (1) Is larger corporations controlling the world and (2) is being jacked in to some alternate reality in the computer world that creates a duality of life.

Sadly, Johnny Mnemonic has been the only close movie to even go down this realm, and even then, the actual cyber world part of it did not play a huge role as in most of the highly regarded cyberpunk stories.

For the first time, after seeing Tron Legacy, I've seen a film that has just left a HUGE platform to really do a cyberpunk movie. Easily they could move into a future time where Sam has opening up the world to this other computer universe. Other corporations could follow suite and become so big, that it pushes down the government control. Notice in both Tron movies, there is no real government explained big or small. Granted, the huge difference would be in almost all cyberpunk worlds I've read/studied, people jack into this other reality (like matrix style), I think you could still work with the two major premises of cyberpunk, and create a really awesome movie. Certainly The Matrix has laid down the foundation of dealing with an in computer and real life story line at the same time, but this time, not with humans battling robots, but corporations and technology/turf wars.

I REALLY hope they go this way. I've wanted to see a cyberpunk movie done well for A LONG TIME!
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Cyberpunk is about Man becoming Machine and Machine becoming Man.
 
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