HPX170 Lens Wobble Improved
- Thread starter Dino
- Start date
atlfilmguy
Well-known member
He was joking
Hi Jan , first thanks for the answer. I took my DVX100BE today and tried to wiggle: no wiggle. I was not able to move the lens sideways or up&down. Of course I did not want to place extreme force on the lens. I did however place the same strain as I could perceive from the video showing the movement. From the postings of the other HPX and HVX owners I see there is more SHOCK-Mount loosenes than in the old DVX. I hope to see some footage soon to see if the shock mount looseness affects the image.
If it doesnt, Panasonic has no problem.....if it does, I am sure Japan is going to take this serious.
Once more: thanks for joining the discussion! Its very uncommon and appreciated.
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Deaniweenie
Active member
To I Filmmaker, there is no doubt that the 170 has a problem. More and more users are going to experience the problem and find themselves disappointed with the camera.
Your answer is to tell Dino to return his camera and basically 'get lost' and stop whining.
If this is the answer then there is little point in having this forum. No-one will feel like they can confidently air there worries, and more to the point, Panasonic will not be encouraged to improve future cameras.
I am an HVX owner and was intending to be an HPX owner but I am now holding on until we get a definitive answer to this issue.
Also, the responses from Panasonic and, I have to say Barry have I feel, damaged the credibility of this forum and indeed, Panasonic.
I look forward to my confidence in both being rebuilt by Panasonic taking action over this issue.
Weenie.
TheMusician
Well-known member
Everybody please step back and take a breather. We are not going to hear anything new until next week when Jan gets ahold of Osaka so everybody is shouting in vain and saying some pretty hurtful things in the meantime. And please don't forget that if you had a Sony or Canon camera and had an issue, there is no Sony/Canon representative to help address the issues on this forum. You should have seen the nightmares that the EX1 had at the begining of its lifecycle and there was nobody to talk to about it. It is a privilege to have a voice from Panasonic here that can actually call Osaka and talk directly to them for us. Jan has done what she can for now and has assured us that she will be doing more at the beginning of the week. Panasonic actually LISTENS to this forum, check out how many features they gave to us from the request thread. Please don't say anything that we are all going to regret because you cannot wait until Monday.
Deaniweenie
Active member
The Musician has said it. Lets wait and see and hope there is a happy ending to all this.
Weenie.
Weenie.
twerp
Active member
i shoot mostly 'hardcore' and 'metal' bands music videos. i move the camera from side to side quite a bit to achieve that 'metal' video look. is this wobble going to affect me swinging my 170 around? i guess i'll find out next week when it arrives. i'm mad scared =|
maybe i'll send it back and get me a 200a. grrrr.
maybe i'll send it back and get me a 200a. grrrr.
Amen! I've really enjoyed the quality of this board, and having a Panasonic rep reply to concerns, immediately, about their hot new product really reinforces my positive impression of the company, and of their products. Some companies just 'get it.' Most don't. The good will this engenders is a major factor in my purchase decision. And I've been doing a lot of research over the past few years. I think this camera is the one.
For the first twelve pages of this post, I was worried more about dust in the camera body than motion problems. My concerns have been put to rest.
And for a board having so many experts, I'm surprised there's been so little discussion about the new lens on this camera. I'm not an expert, but I have some idea of the compromises and precision that must go into getting a lens with both this zoom range and decent high-def optics. It doesn't surprise me a bit that it might be a bit more fragile / precise than previous designs, and that engineers would look into the impact / G-load that would knock something loose internally. And try to match a shock mount to that specific target.
Making the rubber mount 'wiggle factor' different from previous cameras.
Bottom line is that this whole issue seems much more likely to be deliberate engineering than cheap manufacture.
I may hold out for the first professional reviews of production units, but will probably buy the camera. And I'll be fully informed about it, thanks to the all the experts on this board (Barry and Adam Wilt and Jan in particular). Thanks again.
Gary Senda
Well-known member
dcnblues, I agree with many of your arguments.
I've tested my camera and I've no reason to be worried.
- the wiggle is about 1mm
- to make the lens play you must apply a significant force on the lens hood, that works as a lever. To obtain the same wiggle pushing directly on the lens you must double the force
- when lens moves you have the clear sensation the lens is firmly attached and anchored to the body, with the interposition of something made of rubber
- if there is rubber between the lens and the camera body this can only reduce the risk of dust inside
In my opinion the reason of the shock mount is that the camera has a large lens hood. As I've said it works as a lever because it is very big and without a shock mount every little collision of the hood is a great stress for the attachment point of the lens.
I've tested the camera for hours and I've not seen a single issue due to the wiggle: I've panned as quickly as I could, I've handhelded out of the car window to simulate a cameracar, I've shaked the camera, I've used it with a 35mm adapter, a 300mm lens and the follow focus. No visible issues in my footage.
On the other hand this lens is fantastic: I have never seen before a wide angle like this on a palmcorder. At the moment I prefer to enjoy my camera and not to be worried for a wiggle that probably is only a safe mount and without percepible consequences.
Regards
Gary
I've tested my camera and I've no reason to be worried.
- the wiggle is about 1mm
- to make the lens play you must apply a significant force on the lens hood, that works as a lever. To obtain the same wiggle pushing directly on the lens you must double the force
- when lens moves you have the clear sensation the lens is firmly attached and anchored to the body, with the interposition of something made of rubber
- if there is rubber between the lens and the camera body this can only reduce the risk of dust inside
In my opinion the reason of the shock mount is that the camera has a large lens hood. As I've said it works as a lever because it is very big and without a shock mount every little collision of the hood is a great stress for the attachment point of the lens.
I've tested the camera for hours and I've not seen a single issue due to the wiggle: I've panned as quickly as I could, I've handhelded out of the car window to simulate a cameracar, I've shaked the camera, I've used it with a 35mm adapter, a 300mm lens and the follow focus. No visible issues in my footage.
On the other hand this lens is fantastic: I have never seen before a wide angle like this on a palmcorder. At the moment I prefer to enjoy my camera and not to be worried for a wiggle that probably is only a safe mount and without percepible consequences.
Regards
Gary
Probably because some people are grabbing the lens and wiggling it a lot harder then others are, I doubt everyone is able to or wants to exert the exact same amount of force. And the camera in the vimeo video already had a 35mm adapter incorrectly mounted to the lens which could well have exacerbated the movement thereafter.
Leo Versola
Well-known member
Again, not to fuel the fire but the only time I can detect any movement in the lens is at full zoom and while trying to rack focus. You've got to have a gentle and smooth touch.
However, at a 35mm equivalent of 368mm, any movement whether it's from the tripod, the camera quick release plate or anything else that it could be attributed to is evident. I've used 400mm lenses on other cameras outdoors and even a slight breeze would cause movement in the image even when firmly locked down on a tripod.
On another note, I was panning back and forth and noticed that the image would lag just a tad bit every now and then. I thought to myself, what the ????, not another item to be concerned with...
However, after some cursory troubleshooting, I narrowed the cause down to having the OIS enabled. Upon disabling the OIS, I could not reproduce the effect at all. So, when locked down on a tripod, you're definitely going to want to disable the OIS to avoid this particular instance from happening.
Definitely not something to freak out over...
Come to think of it, I vaguely remember this being mentioned in another thread; I'll have to look for it.
However, at a 35mm equivalent of 368mm, any movement whether it's from the tripod, the camera quick release plate or anything else that it could be attributed to is evident. I've used 400mm lenses on other cameras outdoors and even a slight breeze would cause movement in the image even when firmly locked down on a tripod.
On another note, I was panning back and forth and noticed that the image would lag just a tad bit every now and then. I thought to myself, what the ????, not another item to be concerned with...
However, after some cursory troubleshooting, I narrowed the cause down to having the OIS enabled. Upon disabling the OIS, I could not reproduce the effect at all. So, when locked down on a tripod, you're definitely going to want to disable the OIS to avoid this particular instance from happening.
Definitely not something to freak out over...
Come to think of it, I vaguely remember this being mentioned in another thread; I'll have to look for it.
Gary Senda
Well-known member
It is very difficult at this focal lenght to distinguish if the movement you detect is due to the lens wiggle or it is due simply to the lens touching. As you have said at more than 350mm of focal lenght even a gentle touch can cause a significative shake in the framing. My lens absolutely don't wiggle for a simple focus changing or for touching the barrel
Regards
gary
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
You will not notice it at all. I have had one in my hands for the last couple of months. I have had a follow focus on it and not. This is really a non-issue. Of this, I am convinced. The design is a part of all of the cameras, but it is implemented differently on each of the cameras.
Best,
Jan
Jeff Regan's signature camera photo shows an example of a rig you absolutely should not fly. There is no support beyond the adapter, which will always translate a significant amount of force via cantilever laterally on the lens where it meets the adapter.
Not that this is what he is talking about, but I see this more and more often on these DOF rigs. At minimum, there should be a mattebox support riser to relieve the cantilever situation.
I've seen some image shift on the HVX200 when using the gearless follow-focus from indiFOCUS when the wheel is forced too hard against the focus ring. This is not an issue with any geared solution - at least not that I've ever seen. The DVX/HVX/HPX form-factor cameras have an almost frictionless focus ring, and this certainly will alleviate play for most users.
Again, if you are not exerting side to side or top to bottom force on the lens by improper mounting of DOF adapters (e.g., any hard mounting without additional DOF / lens support risers), this slop in the shock mounting should not be an issue.
e
Not that this is what he is talking about, but I see this more and more often on these DOF rigs. At minimum, there should be a mattebox support riser to relieve the cantilever situation.
I've seen some image shift on the HVX200 when using the gearless follow-focus from indiFOCUS when the wheel is forced too hard against the focus ring. This is not an issue with any geared solution - at least not that I've ever seen. The DVX/HVX/HPX form-factor cameras have an almost frictionless focus ring, and this certainly will alleviate play for most users.
Again, if you are not exerting side to side or top to bottom force on the lens by improper mounting of DOF adapters (e.g., any hard mounting without additional DOF / lens support risers), this slop in the shock mounting should not be an issue.
e
As an aside, when is Panasonic going to start building focus rings with both the tactile ridges and a film pitch ring? I can't imagine that most of their prosumer / pro market customers wouldn't appreciate the feature?
e
e
Dino
Veteran
Erik,
I set up my adapter rig exactly as Zacuto did in their NAB booth, except they were using a Letus B4 Relay and HPX500, and their own rods/support. I used this setup with the 200A and EX1 with no issues.
Due to my experience with the HPX170 lateral lens play, I have added a second support
under the adapter, closer to the taking lens and there is now a screw going through the support and into the adapter.
Are you saying that a prime lens should also have its own support?
I set up my adapter rig exactly as Zacuto did in their NAB booth, except they were using a Letus B4 Relay and HPX500, and their own rods/support. I used this setup with the 200A and EX1 with no issues.
Due to my experience with the HPX170 lateral lens play, I have added a second support
under the adapter, closer to the taking lens and there is now a screw going through the support and into the adapter.
Are you saying that a prime lens should also have its own support?
DC
Cinematographiliac
FWIW, I have posted some more of my comments about this here here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1423568&postcount=9
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1423568&postcount=9
Segarza
Well-known member
Hey guys!
I just had a chance to play with my new HPX170 and I'm profoundly disappointed. The problems stated in this thread are not being blown out of proportion. I set my two HVX200's and HPX170 side by side. And the HPX lens has significantly more wobble or play. Just like the vimeo video. The HVX200s' lens play, on the other hand, is imperceptible. On the HPX170, image shifting is more than evident by mid to full telephoto. I locked the HPX170 down on a tripod, full telephoto and applied the slightest of pressure to the focus ring (not even the lens hood) and the image shifted significantly. As a reference or comparison point I applied the same pressure to the HPX's mic and camera shake was minimal. Applied the same pressure to the tripod handle and again camera shake was minimal compared to the image shift when applying slight pressure on the focus ring. Tried the same experiment mid telephoto and same results, although the shifting was less noticeable, it was still significant.
I then proceeded to do the same experiment with the HVX200's, and there was no image shifting, only minimal to imperceptible camera shake.
In my opinion this is a serious design flaw. I do quite a bit of aerial photography, and after this test would never consider taking the HPX170 up. The wind would exert enough pressure on the lens to cause image shifting.
I just had a chance to play with my new HPX170 and I'm profoundly disappointed. The problems stated in this thread are not being blown out of proportion. I set my two HVX200's and HPX170 side by side. And the HPX lens has significantly more wobble or play. Just like the vimeo video. The HVX200s' lens play, on the other hand, is imperceptible. On the HPX170, image shifting is more than evident by mid to full telephoto. I locked the HPX170 down on a tripod, full telephoto and applied the slightest of pressure to the focus ring (not even the lens hood) and the image shifted significantly. As a reference or comparison point I applied the same pressure to the HPX's mic and camera shake was minimal. Applied the same pressure to the tripod handle and again camera shake was minimal compared to the image shift when applying slight pressure on the focus ring. Tried the same experiment mid telephoto and same results, although the shifting was less noticeable, it was still significant.
I then proceeded to do the same experiment with the HVX200's, and there was no image shifting, only minimal to imperceptible camera shake.
In my opinion this is a serious design flaw. I do quite a bit of aerial photography, and after this test would never consider taking the HPX170 up. The wind would exert enough pressure on the lens to cause image shifting.