too good to be true?

[Emanuel]

Thanks Barry for your answer!

[but...]

For those wanting to make a film, as in actual celluloid, shooting on a video camera is false economy. You'll spend $30,000 to transfer the video to film, and for that kind of coin you could have shot on film in the first place.

All of us, indies (and young people), we know how is important and useful to the "art form" and "good results*" (shooting without the "takes limitation" of the film shooting production**) is this 1080/24p possibility.

(...)all to just try to protect the 1-in-4000 chance that you'll be transferring your work to film?

Yes, this is the case of:

the business of shooting weddings, shooting television commercials, hiring yourself out as a shooter, getting jobs as a news stringer, or anything like that

but not to (digital or not) real FILMmakers, that you, american fellows called "the indies". And there are a lot of these freaks that are in all the film festivals around the world fighting for a place in this activity (I prefer it instead the word "industry"); WE made arthouse production. We live for that! And this 24p/60i can be a great solution for our lifes.

If your 25p film is utterly brilliant and warrants international distribution, you can convert it to 24. But to cripple your capabilities right off the bat, just in the hopes that maybe maybe maybe you'll make something that will get transferred, even though the odds are about 4,000 to 1 against it ever happening: -- well, hey, let's put it this way -- it's your money, you can do what you want.

The film business is not so "white & black" - sorry! - unfortunately (or maybe not)...

So wouldn't you want to get a camera that works with the television system used by your entire continent?

Yes indeed! That's why I ask, regarding:

Converting 24p to 25p is no big deal, it's been done for decades. Made-for-TV movies (even those shot on film) in Europe are shot at 25fps, because 25 is the proper frame rate to work with European television. If those same films were to be exported to the US, they'd be converted to 24.

Which software, an affordable indy solution, can do this? Because, as I said before, the post-production is also part of our lives.

* acting performance (and EXPERIMENTALISM), only as (one) example.
** $100.000 film stock + laboratory costs for a 120 minutes feature vs P2 $ or € :cheesy: (as other example).

 

[Spec-Comm]

They have no HVX's on order. They are going to take your deposit, hang on to it for a few months and then deliver after the rest of us have our cams.

Hello evinsky,

We do have an order in. I'm interested in knowing how you would have came to that conclusion since Panasonic has kept all of that information secretive?

Anyway, our order is a large one and we are still taking pre-orders. :thumbsup:


Andrew Hoffman
Senior Operations Manager
Specialized Communications
20940 Twin Springs Drive
Hagerstown, MD 21740
www.spec-comm.com
1-800-359-1859

 

[Jarred Land]

I think Evinsky was trying to be sarcastic.

Thanks for clearing that up anyways Andrew, I know alot of people have been asking about the stock situation, since no concrete info is known when and where the cameras will show up people start to speculate.

 

[Spec-Comm]

Specialized is an authorized Panasonic reseller, and also a service center. They are also advertising here, they bought some banner ads. Andrew Hoffman of Spec-Comm is a frequent participant here on the forum, I'm sure he'll weigh in and answer your questions directly.

That is correct Barry.

We are Panasonic Authorized. If paid in full, the package will be $8721 plus free shipping, and one free cleaning.
Just the camera is $5389 plus free shipping, and one free cleaning.


Andrew Hoffman
Senior Operations Manager
Specialized Communications
20940 Twin Springs Drive
Hagerstown, MD 21740
www.spec-comm.com
1-800-359-1859

 

[Jarred Land]

As for the whole film thing, Barry is technically correct (like he usually is), however in the real world alot of people going to film prefer to shoot on DV or HD with intentions for a film out, pending on a presale or successful aquasition of a sales agent.

That way, if they make the film and the theatrical distribution falls through (which it almost always does) they don't have a roll of very expensive film sitting in their garage where a new hummer could be sitting. If the Theatrical does happen, paying 30k at that point is a much better decision because that roll of film becomes an asset instead of a liability.

 

[Spec-Comm]

I think Evinsky was trying to be sarcastic.

Thanks for clearing that up anyways Andrew, I know alot of people have been asking about the stock situation, since no concrete info is known when and where the cameras will show up people start to speculate.

And that is to be expected. I know that we are excited about the HVX200; everybody else should be too.

One thing that needs to be made clear is that exact lists of units to be received have been stated on the forums and they may be deceiving. We spoke with our Panasonic sales representative and he said that the orders going to Panasonic have been so large that they are probably going to have to spread the initial shipment out which means that initial orders may not be filled in their entirety.

Neither He nor anybody else knows how many are going to be released on the initial shipment. I'm sure we speak for everybody that an early shipment will be welcomed!

P.S. I would like to thank you Jarred and Barry for doing a wonderful job explaining all of the questions. You guys are great!

Andrew Hoffman
Senior Operations Manager
Specialized Communications
20940 Twin Springs Drive
Hagerstown, MD 21740
www.spec-comm.com
1-800-359-1859

 

[SergejIvanovits]

"shooting on a video camera is false economy"
Shooting on a video camera is the only economycal solution.

You shoot on Super16 or 35mm ... you pay for the rental and materials
Labor, scanning - it costs you money
Editing - let say you have everything - you don't have to pay
Filmtransfer - you have to pay
Don't mention all the retakes you need because something just wasn't perfect.

HD video - you pay for the rental if you don't own the camera and the tapes
Editing - you have everything so it doesn't cost you anything
Filmtansfer - you have to pay

 

[FiL]

well i'd like a PAL version that could do

1080- 25p 50i
720 - 25p, 50p, 60p



the 60p in 720p mode is the problem for me...for slo-mo work.

although it's not enough to make me buy a 60Hz camera, I'm still getting a UK 50Hz camera.

(unless a flight to NYC and B&H + 60Hz) is cheaper...

 

[Emanuel]

As for the whole film thing, Barry is technically correct (like he usually is), however in the real world alot of people going to film prefer to shoot on DV or HD with intentions for a film out, pending on a presale or successful aquasition of a sales agent.

That way, if they make the film and the theatrical distribution falls through (which it almost always does) they don't have a roll of very expensive film sitting in their garage where a new hummer could be sitting. If the Theatrical does happen, paying 30k at that point is a much better decision because that roll of film becomes an asset instead of a liability.

Bravo, Jarred! Finally, someone - officially :laugh: - understands this POV...

(...)Barry is technically correct (like he usually is)

As all we well know... As I said before that's the reason that brought me here as registered dvxuser member. And that's why I ask you Barry, your expert help (not to a mere say yes or no...) to (us) these problems with the HVX 24p/60i in PAL land.

 

[Barry_Green]

Whoa -- hold on -- it's not that people don't understand the reasons someone would want to shoot on video. Obviously it's more economical, and something like the HVX preserves your options better in case you do get the elusive film-out deal. That's not what I was saying when I said it was "false economy" -- that was targeted towards those who insist that they ARE going to transfer to film. And if you know for sure that you're definitely going to make a film print, then I reiterate that it's a false economy to shoot on video in the first place.

Okay, with that said -- let's re-examine Emanuel's point. Which appears to be -- "I will use this camera to make films. I don't care about TV, I don't care about business purposes, I don't care about getting hired to shoot for someone else, my one and only purpose is to use the HVX to make a movie with, and that's why I need 24p and not 25p." Okay, well, if we accept that as your premise, then the question becomes: WHY on EARTH buy a $6,000 camera then? You could probably rent it for the duration of the shoot for maybe $1,000 total! The advantage to owning the camera is so you can do other things with it, and a 24p/60i camera in 25p/50i territory is prohibited from being used for those other purposes. So as long as you won't be getting those other benefits anyway, why commit $6,000 to the purchase, when you could rent it off some DVXUser member for maybe $1,000 and make him (and yourself) very happy?

I just don't see the logic. It's like when people were promoting the idea of using PAL gear in the US, because it had higher resolution than NTSC. Well, yeah, but it also had a different colorspace and suffered from all the other limitations I'm talking about. The whole argument never made a lick of sense to me, and it still doesn't. If you're putting the camera to work, you need the one designed for your territory. If you're only using it for a limited time, renting is a far more sensible solution. And even then, it *only* makes sense if you're aiming for a filmout, which (to be frank) isn't gonna happen. So why do it? If you're distributing on DVD or HD-DVD or broadcast (in Europe), having shot in 24P was the wrong choice. Sure it can be corrected in post, but it won't be as good as if you'd just shot 25p in the first place.

So, I'll say it for the last time: I think a PAL user would be making the wrong choice if they bought the 24p/60i NTSC version of the camera. You are of course free to do whatever you want -- but you asked for advice, and my advice would be -- don't do it. Get the one that works with your country's television system.

 

[Barry_Green]

As far as converting 24p to 25p, that would be a simple matter of dropping the 24p file on the Vegas 25p timeline and telling it to play the footage back at about 104% speed. Then select the "time stretch" option on the audio and tell it to play back at 104% speed, and preserve the pitch. That would basically work. Not sure if it would work satisfactorily for the audio, but the video should be frame-for-frame accurate. I'm certain there are better tools out there for stretching/shrinking the audio, but I bet that'd get you started.

 

[Emanuel]

Thanks (again) Barry for your answer!

WHY on EARTH buy a $6,000 camera then? You could probably rent it for the duration of the shoot for maybe $1,000 total! The advantage to owning the camera is so you can do other things with it, and a 24p/60i camera in 25p/50i territory is prohibited from being used for those other purposes. So as long as you won't be getting those other benefits anyway, why commit $6,000 to the purchase, when you could rent it off some DVXUser member for maybe $1,000 and make him (and yourself) very happy?

It´s a question of 'production schedule'. For us, the european arthouse filmmakers, time is..."the art form result". I need time for my way of thinking "the arthouse product" (time for work with the actors, etc.) and I need to work with a small crew, like partners and not with people paid as guild members. We like experiment(alism). The majority of the beloved european cinema (and in America too) is this. Sometimes, we need the double of the 'shooting days' or even without 'finish day'. Available when "art form finished" and all the aesthetics options are (the work is) worn out. So, "to rent" isn't even an option, only for F900 or F950 and, before HVX, it was, also scheduled. And that's why HVX 1080/24p or 25p means freedom, more possibilities ('cause we'll have more shooting time) and better arthouse movies (in french: "art et essai" and there's a niche market and there's not so big deal the theatrical release of these kind of movies - in Europe, we have almost easily financial aids to this BUT only after the finished product and not before AS YOU ARE USED TO - it's another continent, american fellows!).

On the other hand, the euro is currently $1.2138 US - the US price is 21,38% less! Maybe I may have money only to buy the €4530 camera-only HVX 24p/60i + Firestore and not the same amount [$12,138 + 21% (VAT*) = $14,687] of the HVX 25p/50i 2x8Gb P2 bundle or even the €6000 + 21% = €7200 in case of the camera-only offer availability. It's quite different!

If you're distributing on DVD or HD-DVD or broadcast (in Europe), having shot in 24P was the wrong choice. Sure it can be corrected in post, but it won't be as good as if you'd just shot 25p in the first place.

Here is "a" serious problem that we - the HVX 24p/60i willfull PAL guys - have.

Sure it can be corrected in post, but it won't be as good as if you'd just shot 25p in the first place.

Definitely? In any affordable software (=ours =in our NLE) case? I don't have Vegas. Other solutions?

Specific ones for better results? Like DVfilm's Atlantis (they are film transfer experts, aren't they?) or Cineform? These, they say (ok I know it's HDV by now but...):

[http://cineform.com/products/AspectHDPPro.htm]

«I was knocked out that I could choose to transform to true 24p during capture - or could import 25p and then export and transform to 24p. This means I can create two solutions in post - one to transfer to film, and one dedicated for broadcast.» Peter Lancett (XlitherFilms), Filmmaker in the UK.

I googled him:
http://www.lancett.co.uk/
A writer, a novelist... Will he know about post-production? As SPZ said before, «we need facts not propaganda». And concerning this point of view, I agree 100% with you, Barry, it's better a REAL/EFFECTIVE solution that works.

The questions are:

Is it possible to go also to the 24p/60i way for film-out & DVD distribution (in both sides: PAL & NTSC) without failure in the middle of the process?

[II] And which are the tools that we - all of us, dvxuser.com members with the same POV and point/situation/work etc. - need for succeed in that (24p/60i) way?

Thanks in advance!

*(key for non-european dvxuser.com readers): value added (european) tax

 

[Barry_Green]

Well, you do have a point about the experimentalist nature, and wanting to have it for an extended period may make sense, but I still cannot understand why you wouldn't just go with the right tool for the job (the European one).

Okay, besides that -- I'm sure CineForm or DVFilm could produce a tool that would do a simple and good-quality conversion. I know that DVFilm has the capability to transform 25 to 24, but I don't know if they've released such a tool. The only version of Atlantis I saw was for PAL->NTSC conversion, and that's not the same thing. That was converting 50 fields into 60 fields. 25 progressive frames converted to 24 would be much easier, provided you're willing to live with the slowdown -- or 24 converted to 25, provided you can live with the speed-up.

 

[Emanuel]

...won't have a warranty in your country...

Yes, it's a real problem but also it's NOT impossible handle with it. You are an american producer with your 24p/60i cam and if you'd be here it will be the same, isn't it?

I know that DVFilm has the capability to transform 25 to 24, but I don't know if they've released such a tool. The only version of Atlantis I saw was for PAL->NTSC conversion, and that's not the same thing.

I know and I'm very concerned with this.

The only version of Atlantis I saw was for PAL->NTSC conversion(...)That was converting 50 fields into 60 fields. 25 progressive frames converted to 24 would be much easier, provided you're willing to live with the slowdown -- or 24 converted to 25, provided you can live with the speed-up.

A)
And what's your opinion about the effectiveness of THESE methods? What did you see in that sample?

AA)
A 24p -> 25p won't it be nearly the native 25p? At least, acceptable? For DVD release? If not, how it works for any american 1080/24p movie for an european release? DVD or HD-DVD release and - why not - broadcast distribution? The only way is an unaffordable post-production solution? And not in a $10,000-$15,000 range for a post-production turnkey solution, affordable for indies?

B)
By other side, as you said, slowdown is not the same of the speed-up. There are different results. An "european time" would be speedy increase instead of the slowdown, if not the majority of the american audiences will say «this is even more boring than something I could think up!...» :cheesy: Frankly, my arthouse "product" is more for a niche european market (that's why I'm concerned about the 25p issue, as you know) but I see this market as a whole without frontiers or barriers (like the web), so to me, to be here or there is the same (all the good european arthouse movies are VERY valued in your market) and the 25p:undecided24p split, it will be a problem that I'd like solve. A 24p purchase as like a 25p purchase will not solve this (even a double purchase nor a HVX200A with the two modes inside the same product like the Z1).


Thanks in advance!

 

[jochem]

Well Emanuel, I understand all of your points, but just don't really see the concern in it. Swallow your pride and get the PAL version, preferably from your own country. If you are really working in a high productive and professional environment, then get the camera which is best, but you should be able to afford it as well. It's very simple, if you cannot pay the european price for it, just get something cheaper. DVCproHD is nice, but SD, rented HD, HDV aren't bad solutions, you probably weren't complaining a year ago, when HD wasn't even available at this level.
I know the feeling though, you get mesmerized by all these new features nowadays that you are fixated to get all of them in one 'compilation'camera. I had to reasses the situation, now I'm buying the Z1e and maybe I'll get the HVX200 in half a year or so, when the frenzie has faded and money sits in my account.
You're talking about film-out, but with the HVX200 comes a run for digital cinema. By the time you finish your first film, there's no need for a film transfer. Your producer will give you the finger when you say you need the 30 grand for the aesthetic choice of film. So don't look too far ahead into the future about how your projects might end up.

 

[Emanuel]

(...)Swallow your pride and get the PAL version(...)

My dear jochem, it's not a question of pride. As you can read before (in same thread or in the last post), I'll buy the 25p if it is the best option to those purposes (I even ask the PAL price) @ an acceptable price. And I don´t know yet the right decision :undecided.

(...)preferably from your own country.(...)

What country? By now, I'm working in three different markets - PAL indeed - but whatever tomorrow brings? Who knows?

DVCproHD is nice, but SD, rented HD, HDV aren't bad solutions, you probably weren't complaining a year ago, when HD wasn't even available at this level.

It's true that last year we didn't have 1080/24p @ €4530 + firestore. We had the F900 or even the F950 sheduled to rent.

You're talking about film-out, but with the HVX200 comes a run for digital cinema. By the time you finish your first film, there's no need for a film transfer.

I'd like to.

So don't look too far ahead into the future about how your projects might end up.

I'd also like to but, unfortunately, I must not!

 

[delaro]

i don t really understand where is the problem guys.
we, on french television, have david letterman shows, larry king shows, and a lot more. it was shoot in ntsc, right? So, it must be easy for a tv company, if they like someone's NTSC hvx200 work to transfer it to be suitable for PAL diffusion.

and why do people want this cam? for hd mostly, no? why buying this expensive cam to shoot documentaries, weddings, ...., in simple dv? color and 16/9? you can get very good cams to shoot sd in that price range. i think most of the future buyers want to have better resolution to be free, later, to choose if they want to output to dvd, theatre, etc.

i don t know how it is in the US but all TVs you can buy here are pal/secam/compatible. so there is no problem to find monitors to work on. anyway, it s impossible to find a simple CRT in a shop now. only lcd, plasma and projectors are available in france. and a most of them are hdtv ready.

we also have some movie theatres with digital projection since the release of star wars. and the number will increase this year. and am i wrong? you don t need film transfer for that.
godard told 20 years ago that film will die, he was right. like for digital photography. like for everything. and some people will say that s it s not as warm as the old fashion (like always) but new generations will be accustomed to the new images style and will find that movies using film look old. like "muet", like 18fps, like black&white, like SF movies using puppets before.

L.Delaroziere
www.supralumen.com

 

[jochem]

I'll buy the 25p if it is the best option to those purposes (I even ask the PAL price) @ an acceptable price. And I didn´t yet know the right decision :undecided .

You do know what happens to customer support when getting the camera from US, don't you? Also, don't you stand the risk of paying import duty when 'getting caught'? I know, the difference is big, saves a lot of money, but we are talking about a professional product here, you don't want to be on thin ice with it.
It's actually the same as not arranging insurance with the camera, it would save you money, but why!! would you :huh:

 

[Emanuel]

You do know what happens to customer support when getting the camera from US, don't you? Also, don't you stand the risk of paying import duty when 'getting caught'? I know, the difference is big, saves a lot of money, but we are talking about a professional product here, you don't want to be on thin ice with it.
It's actually the same as not arranging insurance with the camera, it would save you money, but why!! would you :huh:

I understand your point of view...

 

[jochem]

and why do people want this cam? for hd mostly, no? why buying this expensive cam to shoot documentaries, weddings, ...., in simple dv? color and 16/9? you can get very good cams to shoot sd in that price range. i think most of the future buyers want to have better resolution to be free, later, to choose if they want to output to dvd, theatre, etc.

Yes, for this price you can get nice SD quality. However, if you can get a nice SD cam which happenes to shoot HD as well, you'd get it too. (if you would be able to afford it)

and Godard didn't mean film would die as in celluloid alone! The concept we know now as 'film' will die, so also the digital stuff. The digital revolution is probably causing this, because it is now available for everyone :angry: or should I be ? I don't know yet