To buy or not to buy? What the best 24p cam? (Rush just called)

stephenvv

stephenvv

Well-known member
Got in after being out of town and Rush left a message. My number is up soon and I'm still on the fence between H1, HD100 and HVX. I have no access to a dealer to see ANY of the cams, much less compare.

My issues:

(1) Rez at 24p

As best as I understand the results including Adam Wilt's, the HVX and H1 shooting 24f both only resolve 540 lines in 24p while the HD100 resolve 25% more TV lines. That sounds like a dramatic difference but there is little footage, none in full rez motion I've seen to see the impact on this. If so, this is big advantage for the HD100

(2) 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2

Again, on paper 4:2:2 should be visually better but all things are not equal. Again, not much footage to judge A/B testing of this.

(3) Latitude & Sensitivity

I've grown attached to my DVX100a sensitivity and latitude. I'm concerned that the HVX is a horizontal step or even a small step back with a loss of 1 stop of sensitivity. But none of the sub $10k cams seem to offer real progress over miniDV cams. Proves that CCD size is still more important that DSP or processing bit-depth.

(4) P2

Yes, it's a revolution, but my budget is tight and I have both long form and short form projects to shoot. I'm worried about always having to have a crew person devoted to dumping P2 cards on every shoot (and maybe a copy before I'm ready to erase the P2 card. 4-5 8 GB cards would be nice, but I just can't swing the $$$ for that many.

I guess hauling a laptop and drive (as I do now with my DVX) is the best option or cheapskates.
 
I'm struggling with these same things, especially when considering long form stuff.

A post on another forum indicates some issues with trying long form capture with two 4 Gb p2 cards.

PowerBook locked up several times, and it wasn't the simplest (and fibration free) process to remove the cards while shooting.

He used two 4 Gb cards as I said.

Other people don't report the same issues.

I tell you, the idea is great, but I just read all I can and try to sift through the reports for the best information I can find consistent with my intended workflow.

We're still on the wait less too as Rush's place.

That's why I'm here looking for some feedback from people who are shooting long form.

It's tough that you have to make decision before I and others do.
 
David S. said:
A post on another forum indicates some issues with trying long form capture with two 4 Gb p2 cards.
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I saw that post - I think over on DVInfo. I think my biggest issue it not having a camera to look at and no change to A/B with others. $7 - 9k is a lot to drop blind.
 
Well very recently I was torn with this exact dilemma. After much research and testing of both cameras, I decided to go ahead and purchase the Canon XL-H1.

Both cameras are very excellent tools and I think this decision should be based on ergonimics and workflow more than anything, as the images are great from both. I'll chime in on your issues though ...

(1) I believe that even in the 24F mode, the Canon XL-H1 has the highest resolution of all the low cost HD camcorders. The Canon has native 1440x1080 chips and this seems to give it the highest rez of all the camcorders.

(2) 4:2:2 definitely is more appealing to me than 4:2:0, but I always go and test out footage myself before making decision based on just specs. The Canon HDV footage holds up FAR better than I thought it would in post. There's a lot of FUD regarding HDV, so i would suggest really testing it out if you can beforehand. It may surprise you how well it really can work ...

(3) I've owned both the DVX100a and the XL2 and the sensitivity seems to be near the same with the Canon XL-H1. Just have a good understanding of adjusting certain parameters that affect dynamic range ( such as knee, black levels, etc.).

(4) Yes, P2 seems more of a hassle at this point (workflow wise), but I'm sure its only going to get better with time. But the Firestore seems like a more promising solution for this camera.

My main concern was this whole 24F thing, with my intial thoughts thinking it would be quite similar to CF24. I'm glad to report that 24F seems to be identical to 24P. Motion seems exactly the same, with even the 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 options available in DV mode. In HDV, it records 24 frames directly onto tape and as 24PsF through the HD-SDI port.

Speaking of which, I was drawn more to the Canon in the end mianly because of the open architecture. The HVX is an awesome all-in-one camera, but the XL-H1 brings about possibilities like interchangeable lenses and HD-SDI that appealed to me. I'm pretty confident there will be products that will take advantage of the HD-SDI port, hopefully announced by NAB. I know someone working on a portable HD-SDI solution now. I've seen footage out of that port, and let me tell you ... it is simply amazing what the uncompressed output of that camera looks like ...

So essentially look at what workflow best works for you as the images from both are quite similar. Although, the Canon does have the abilities to give you a superior picture over the HVX, you have to ask yourself if you are going to take advantage of the options available to make that happen (using an adapter with CinePrime lenses and capturing from the HD-SDI port), of course know that a lot more money is involved in getting those qualities. Hope this helps you think about the purchase and good luck!
 
mgalvan said:
My main concern was this whole 24F thing, with my intial thoughts thinking it would be quite similar to CF24. I'm glad to report that 24F seems to be identical to 24P. Motion seems exactly the same, with even the 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 options available in DV mode. In HDV, it records 24 frames directly onto tape and as 24PsF through the HD-SDI port.
Click to expand...

One question just occured to me. Does it do a true 1/48th and 1/24th shutter in 24f? As I think about it, if the CCDs are interlaced, it could only do 1/60th shutter or faster.
 
It does indeed do a true 1/48th and 1/24th shutter in 24F. When in 24F mode, the CCDs are clocked at 48i instead of 60i and the signal goes through the Digic DVII processor which then spits out the 24F footage as progressive frames. So once on tape (in DV mode), it is progressive and you work with it as if it was progressive footage captured from the DVX or XL2.

The only thing right now is there isn't really much native support for 24F in its HDV mode, but I believe all the major NLE players will have that fixed very very soon. 24F from the HD-SDI port works just like working with 24Psf.
 
mgalvan said:
It does indeed do a true 1/48th and 1/24th shutter in 24F. When in 24F mode, the CCDs are clocked at 48i instead of 60i and the signal goes through the Digic DVII processor which then spits out the 24F footage as progressive frames. So once on tape (in DV mode), it is progressive and you work with it as if it was progressive footage captured from the DVX or XL2.
Click to expand...

Okay, 48i would give 1/48th motion blur, but 1/24th would not be possible except as a digital slow shutter since the CCD is reading 48 times a second.
 
mgalvan said:
My main concern was this whole 24F thing, with my intial thoughts thinking it would be quite similar to CF24. I'm glad to report that 24F seems to be identical to 24P. Motion seems exactly the same, with even the 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 options available in DV mode. In HDV, it records 24 frames directly onto tape and as 24PsF through the HD-SDI port.
Click to expand...

What is your workflow in working 24F?

Final Cut Pro on a Mac doesn't support is and only Vegas 6 beta seems to use it.

What are you doing to import and edit?
 
stephenvv said:
Okay, 48i would give 1/48th motion blur, but 1/24th would not be possible except as a digital slow shutter since the CCD is reading 48 times a second.
Click to expand...

Well that could be the case. I do know that the CCDs are clocked at 48i and then output progressive frames at 1/24th of a second. But both shutters are options in the 24F mode, and they seem to give the same motion blur as their DV counterparts ...
 
David S. said:
What is your workflow in working 24F?

Final Cut Pro on a Mac doesn't support is and only Vegas 6 beta seems to use it.

What are you doing to import and edit?
Click to expand...

Well, I only work with 24F in DV mode as of now as I use Final Cut Pro. In HDV, I only shoot 60i right now as I am waiting fro native support from FCP for 24F ... I have no need to shoot 24F in HDV yet, so I'm surviving ...
 
stephenvv.

It may be a risky approach, but given that the floodgates of HVX deliver is still a bit away, why not buy it without any accessories if possible, shoot with it for a week or two and if the workflow and the camera doesn't meet your needs you probably wont loose a dollar in the process.

Now, that may be a bit of a pain, but what happens if you get it, test it and fall in love? You're out nothing.

Just my two bits.

Best of luck,

J.

EDIT: Do you mind telling us what number you are with Rush?
 
Stephen, are there no local dealers in Greensboro that have all three cameras? Or in Winston-Salem? Do a zipcode search on the panasonic and JVC and Canon sites; surely there's somewhere nearby where you could see a demo. Don't make a $7,000 decision without getting a chance to work with the products and see them for yourself. Especially because many dealers don't allow returns on cameras, and of those that do you'll be looking at a minimum 15% restocking charge, which can be $1000 to $1500. At that rate even a plane flight to NYC to check 'em out at B&H or Abel would be cheap insurance.
 
Yes, definitely test out both cameras before making a decision. We can give you tons of advice, but only you can decide for yourself in the end.

Though I listened intently to all those here and on other sites in my decision making process, it wasn't till I tested out both cameras that I really knew what direction I wanted to go ...
 
mgalvan said:
Though I listened intently to all those here and on other sites in my decision making process, it wasn't till I tested out both cameras that I really knew what direction I wanted to go ...
Click to expand...

How and when were you able to do that?

That's what I hope I could do.
 
Call around to the places that have all of them listed on there line card. It's a standard thing on most websites. The guy here in Orlando has 3 here to demo. Should be pretty easy and Orlando is a nice place to visit this time of year too.
 
David S. said:
How and when were you able to do that?

That's what I hope I could do.
Click to expand...

Well I guess I'm lucky to live in the NJ/NY area, so I have easy access to places. I tested the XL-H1 at B&H and the HVX200 at Abel Cine Tech. I recorded footage to take with me, so I could mess with it in my home edit suite.
 
gilzoo said:
Stephen,

I'm Curious, what's your number on Rush's list? I'm anxiously waiting for my phone to ring, too!

Thanks - Gil
http://www.gaffproductions.com
Click to expand...

I believe I'm #15...and leaning a little to passing until NAB. I would like to see much more footage, have a chance to touch first, see what happens with NLE support and find out how much RED will cost (i.e. do I have a shot).

I looked up the next couple of projects that will shoot through about mid-May and it looks like I won't have to shoot them in HD. Plus money is tight as my current short film project is bleeding money...
 
I'm #38. Maybe next week!!!
I'm slated to shoot a few interviews in HD end of this month...keeping my fingers crossed.

Good luck w/your decisions...I know I won't be able to afford RED when it lands. Would love to get to work with RED if it lives up to the hype...
-Gil
 
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