Thinking about upgrading to HD; a few questions

[righteous.]

1. Is Panasonic going to release an HPX170a? Would it be unwise to buy now?

2. What is the difference between progressive and pN modes? I realize pN is an abbreviation for "native," and I know what "native" usually means in video work, but what does it mean in terms of frame rates?

3. What is the difference between shutter measurements in video mode/film mode? I realize film mode allows variable frame rates, but is the shutter degree format simply a different way of calibrating shutter? Or is it an entirely different outcome altogether? On my DVX, I shoot 24p at 1/60. What would be the equivalent in the degree measurement?

4. I would like to shoot 1080 24p as much as possible. Is this even a possibility if I had 2 16gb p2 cards? Also, why isn't there a 1080 24pN mode? How is the hpx's 1080 24p mode different from the 720 24pN mode, or is there even a difference besides resolution?

5. I am running Final Cut Studio on a Powermac G5 with 2gb RAM. Does anybody see any problems with this computer setup for editing the p2 footage?

6. Is there a major difference between the E-series and A-series p2 cards? I realize the E-series has a limited number of uses, but is it really faster? Does anybody have any input on these? I want to get lots of use out of this camera, since I can't ever see myself upgrading to 3D.


thanks!

 

[puredrifting]

1. Anyone who knows is under NDA so nobody will say. If you are coming from a DVX, you will love the 170, it is essentially an HD DVX. More so than the HVX200 was. Keep in mind that even if a 170A introduced, you won't be able to buy one probably until 2011. If you can wait till then, great. If you need a camera now to make money, buy a 170.

2. In the DVCPRO HD codec, 720 24p is recorded in a 60p stream, flagged and the 24p frames must be extracted to end up with true 24p. This goes all of the way back to the DVCPRO HD tape cameras. 24pN means that the camera literally records only 24 (23.98 actually) frames, like a film camera. It uses up much less P2 card space and if you are going to end up with 24p, I see absolutely no reason to shoot 720 24p.

3. There is no difference at all, it is just an alternate way of reading the shutter angle/speed.

4. Yes, I shot a PBS documentary last year that was recorded this way. Two 16GB P2 cards gets you 32 minutes of recording in 1080. Not sure why there is not a 1080 24pN mode in DVCPRO HD, but there is a 1080 24pN mode in AVCINTRA 100 like the HPX300 shoots. The 1080 mode nets you about 15% greater sharpness and resolution.

5. No, I have a similar setup except for more RAM. I have the dual 2.3GHz G5, handles DVCPRO HD with no problem at all. The only downside is that the G5 cannot handle AVCINTRA 100 if you decide to move up to the 300 or higher and the G5 cannot transcode to Pro Res, which is a bummer. But as long as you are happy with an 8 bit DVCPRO HD timeline, a G5 is fine.

6. A-Series lasts basically indefinitely and is slower. E-Series lasts five years and is faster. Faster doesn't really matter though unless you are downloading to an E SATA raid or something fast enough for it to make a difference. 99% of people download to a single FW drive. In that instance, card speed doesn't matter. By the time you wear out an E-Series card, your camera will be old, broken and outdated anyway unless you are a news station and shoot every single day.

Dan

 

[Gary Huff]

I put in a lot of thought when I finally bought an HD camera, and I chose the HPX/DVCPRO HD way and I haven't looked back. It's an incredibly versatile camera and is capable of great imagery. And I love shooting on P2.

 

[wgzn]

5. I am running Final Cut Studio on a Powermac G5 with 2gb RAM. Does anybody see any problems with this computer setup for editing the p2 footage?

i use an old 1.0 ghz powerbook G4 in the field for P2card injest. and it works just fine (FCP5x) for cuts and dissolve edits of dvcproHD. your G5 mac will do fine.

i would though consider an eSATA card (and eSATA capable drives of course) and more ram though. those (in decreasing order of impact) will have as much or more benefit on performance as moving to an intel mac

 

[righteous.]

1. Anyone who knows is under NDA so nobody will say. If you are coming from a DVX, you will love the 170, it is essentially an HD DVX. More so than the HVX200 was.

Yeah, I filmed some jobs with it last summer and I really liked the 4:2:2 color and solid state design.

2. In the DVCPRO HD codec, 720 24p is recorded in a 60p stream, flagged and the 24p frames must be extracted to end up with true 24p.

What exactly do you mean by "flagged?" Why do these pseudo-24p modes even exist if there is the 24pN option? I don't remember off the top of my head, but the hpx shoots 1080 24p, correct? Will I run into any problems mixing this with pN footage?

but there is a 1080 24pN mode in AVCINTRA 100 like the HPX300 shoots. The 1080 mode nets you about 15% greater sharpness and resolution.

the hpx shoots 1080 24pN in AVCINTRA 100? To clarify, this isn't the same as AVCHD, correct? Is the AVCINTRA 100 higher quality than DVCPRO HD? And when you say it yields 15% increase in sharpness and resolution, are you referring to the DVCPRO HD 1080 24p, or the AVCINTRA 100 1080 24pN?

5. the G5 cannot transcode to Pro Res, which is a bummer. But as long as you are happy with an 8 bit DVCPRO HD timeline, a G5 is fine.

What exactly is Pro Res? and what do you mean by 8 bit timeline? Sorry if these are noobish questions; I've always been better behind a camera than a computer.

By the time you wear out an E-Series card, your camera will be old, broken abnd outdated anyway unless you are a news station and shoot every single day.

Which would you recommend, then? Do you think it would be wiser to drop more on some A-series, or save a bit with some E-series cards and replace them when they reach their quota? Is one type more reliable than another? I film mostly for independent projects, so I would say they would be used almost daily. And like I said in my last post, 3D seems like its going to be the next thing, and I definitely won't want to upgrade when they are more available. I don't ever want to touch 3D...


thanks again

 

[righteous.]

I put in a lot of thought when I finally bought an HD camera, and I chose the HPX/DVCPRO HD way and I haven't looked back. It's an incredibly versatile camera and is capable of great imagery. And I love shooting on P2.

It was never a question of which camera to get. Ever since I got my DVX some years back, I am without a doubt a Panasonic fan.

i use an old 1.0 ghz powerbook G4 in the field for P2card injest. and it works just fine (FCP5x) for cuts and dissolve edits of dvcproHD. your G5 mac will do fine.

i would though consider an eSATA card (and eSATA capable drives of course) and more ram though. those (in decreasing order of impact) will have as much or more benefit on performance as moving to an intel mac

I do more than cut/dissolve work, though. I do heavy keyframing for flash frames, and color correction that may or may not involve mattes (for graduating the skylines, for instance). Do you still think it will hold up? Could you please elaborate what an eSATA card/drive is?

 

[Cranky]

What is the difference between progressive and pN modes? I realize pN is an abbreviation for "native," and I know what "native" usually means in video work, but what does it mean in terms of frame rates?

"Native" usually means that frame rate and scanning type of a stream matches frame rate and scanning type of content. It is customary to transfer content with lower image rate in a stream with higher image rate, especially in broadcast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_Frame

What is the difference between shutter measurements in video mode/film mode? I realize film mode allows variable frame rates, but is the shutter degree format simply a different way of calibrating shutter? Or is it an entirely different outcome altogether? On my DVX, I shoot 24p at 1/60. What would be the equivalent in the degree measurement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_speed#Cinematographic_shutter_formula

Is there a major difference between the E-series and A-series p2 cards? I realize the E-series has a limited number of uses, but is it really faster? Does anybody have any input on these?

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/faq/P2_E-Series_Cards_faq.pdf

 

[wgzn]

Which would you recommend, then? Do you think it would be wiser to drop more on some A-series, or save a bit with some E-series cards and replace them when they reach their quota? Is one type more reliable than another?

nobody is yet able to answer that question. if you are somebody who fills and re-formats a card several times a day, 5 days a week - you MIGHT see end of life of an e-series card before some other storage format comes into fashion. other than that, you likely wont ever notice.

me personally, any product that defines its lifespan is not going to be as fool-proof as one that does not. all my cards are older r-series. and i sleep well at night ; )

and i wouldnt give two thoughts about 3d. IMHO nobody other than big dollar features, game developers or millionaire hobbyists are ever going to see 3d in wide-spread, day-to-day deliverable use.

 

[Cranky]

What exactly do you mean by "flagged?"

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/the-dvd-benchmark/177-dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-scan-dvd.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/mrg-87-june-2002.html#A Beautiful Mind

Why do these pseudo-24p modes even exist if there is the 24pN option?

Tape legacy, perhaps.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but the hpx shoots 1080 24p, correct?

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/AG-HPX170_oi.pdf, page 123

the hpx shoots 1080 24pN in AVCINTRA 100?

Which HPX? The supported recording modes of the HPX170 are listed in the operating manual linked above.

To clarify, this isn't the same as AVCHD, correct? Is the AVCINTRA 100 higher quality than DVCPRO HD?

No, it is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avc-intra

What exactly is Pro Res?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProRes_422

and what do you mean by 8 bit timeline?

Number of bits per color component. TrueColor, for example, has 8 bits per color component (R, G, B, total 24 bits per pixel). This yields 2^8 = 255 shades of gray, which with some trickery like gamma compensation yields about 50:1 contrast ratio at best. 10 bits give you 2^10 = 1024 shades of gray.

 

[puredrifting]

2. These 720 24p modes still exist because what if you are on a show that must integrate with tape cameras? Many 170s and 200s are used on shows that integrate with Panasonic DVCPRO HD tape-based show. I actually shot on one in November, a Spike show that used an HDX900 as an A camera and an HVX200A as a B camera. When you have a post workflow setup, the more you can make formats the same, the easier everyone's life is. Shooting 720 24pN on the P2 cameras and 720 24p on the tape based cameras would make post more of a PITA.

3. The HPX300 shoots in AVCINTRA 100 or DVCPRO HD or DVCPRO 50 or DVCPRO. The HPX170 shoots DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO.

4. Pro Res is a series of five 10-bit codecs used in Final Cut Studio Pro. 8-bit timeline = editing in an 8-bit codec like DVCPRO HD.

5. I own 7 A and R series cards. If I buy any more P2 cards, they will be E-Series, why would I not. But I don't shoot more than once a week or less. If I shot every single day, I would buy A or R Series.

Dan

 

[righteous.]

the G5 cannot transcode to Pro Res, which is a bummer. But as long as you are happy with an 8 bit DVCPRO HD timeline, a G5 is fine.

So does this mean I won't be able to utilize the 4:2:2 color? Or I can't output in 4:2:2?

 

[wgzn]

i think this may be one of those "if you have to ask, it wont effect you" situations...

 

[righteous.]

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/AG-HPX170_oi.pdf

So it only records 24p over 1080i? Is this not real 24p? similar to the 24p over 60i on the DVX...

 

[Gary Huff]

Correct, it has both 24p and 24pa, which function pretty much just like those modes on the DVX.

720p can record in native frames with its PN modes.

 

[KMR]

Righteous, don't worry about 24p in the Panasonic cameras (including the DVX). At 480, 720, or 1080, it truly is "real" 24p--nothing fake or "pseudo" about it. It's just that the non-native 24p is recorded with pulldown in an interlaced stream, to fill out the 60 fields. In your NLE, all of the redundant fields will be removed and you'll have 24 progressive frames per second.

 

[righteous.]

Righteous, don't worry about 24p in the Panasonic cameras (including the DVX). At 480, 720, or 1080, it truly is "real" 24p--nothing fake or "pseudo" about it. It's just that the non-native 24p is recorded with pulldown in an interlaced stream, to fill out the 60 fields. In your NLE, all of the redundant fields will be removed and you'll have 24 progressive frames per second.

Isn't that just the 1080 equivalent of recording 24p over 60i on a miniDV tape? Because when I shoot 24p on my DVX, I get interlacing artifacts. It sucks.

i think this may be one of those "if you have to ask, it wont effect you" situations...

How would it not affect me? Color space is the main reason why I'm upgrading...

 

[David Saraceno]

If you shoot 1080/24pA and ingest in FCP 6/7 using log and transfer, the redundant frames will be automatically stripped out.

 

[righteous.]

If you shoot 1080/24pA and ingest in FCP 6/7 using log and transfer, the redundant frames will be automatically stripped out.

will it work if I have FCP 5? My personal editing computer is a PowerPC G5.

thanks

 

[Cranky]

Isn't that just the 1080 equivalent of recording 24p over 60i on a miniDV tape? Because when I shoot 24p on my DVX, I get interlacing artifacts. It sucks.

This means that you don't perform inverse telecine, which you should if you want to obtain real 24p.

 

[KMR]

Isn't that just the 1080 equivalent of recording 24p over 60i on a miniDV tape? Because when I shoot 24p on my DVX, I get interlacing artifacts. It sucks.

What kind of interlacing artifacts? What's the frame rate of your timeline? Are you doing pulldown removal?