The Sound Guy vs Everyone Else

[10s]

I didn't miss the point at all. Productions have always forgotten about sound... and they will always forget about sound unless audio is in on pre-pro. So given that, when I work a sound job, I like to sit around and talk, eat food and screw off while lights are being set for hours on end, those poor gaffers! And yes, I have to be prepared to be ready to ask for silence, listen adjust, and roll sound and do it in very short time. Usually we're good enough to blast through it with flying colors!

 

[Rippie]

We arent talking about "forgetting about sound". We were talking about a particular "attitude" directed towards sound.

And no offence, but if "i like to sit around and talk, eat, and screw off" while
other dept's are busting their butts..

I could see WHY people would be ragging on sound.

 

[Noiz2]

OK I know you thought it was a joke and it seems like sound folks are too sensitive. But the fact is that if lighting needs some time they get it nine times out of ten, sound gets it maybe one time out of twenty. Productions almost never scout locations with sound in mind and while you my find the sound dept talking up to the take you won't find them talking during the take. They DO know that silence doesn't mean talk quietly on your cel. Try this "humor" with other dept. and I think you will get an equal "over reaction".
I'm 90% in post so I get the results of all the above, I'm the one who is supposed to "fix it in post". I also get to listen to the tracks and have heard mixers begging for a slate (on a high budget commercial shoot) and being told to be quiet and just roll. I was on a set for a different high budget commercial (a Nike spot) to record FX. When I asked the AD where I could be and not get in the way she said "back at the hotel", and I was there at the directors request!

So while I trust that you meant no foul the general level of disrespect the sound dept puts up with makes us a little "sensitive".

Cheers
SK

 

[Mattykins]

And other departments aren't disrespected? Have you ever been a PA? I've seen a PA get yelled at until she cried. Myself and several other crew members took it up with the AD after the fact and he did nothing about our rampant UPM. So we basically said knock it off or we leave. I was the only crew member that could leave since I was there totally freelance being paid whatever I wanted to get paid since I was brought on to save the drifting shoot schedule.

Gaffers and grips are made to do impossible things with no care in the world. ACs get it rough. Unless you are above the line or upper level below the line, you get disrespected.

Yeah - a lot of people ignore audio. I've seen so many films ignore audio in my short career. To say only the sound department is disrespected is just as insensitive as this post is perceived to you the mixer. I've had people call for slate and didn't get it. But that doesn't mean only the sound department has it rough. If you've ever been a PA or a runner. Then you know. I've seen and heard terrible stories. Every department has it rough.

Audio can be fixed after the fact in ADR. In fact - most films enter ADR phases. You can only get the lighting once. While it is very important to get great location audio - sometimes it is a physical impossibility. But would you sacrifice that over an amazing visual? A whole different argument.

But these points are not only ridiculous but whiny as all hell. Sometimes you get shows that suck. I've been on many. Even ones as DoP above the line where I was miserable. But don't say that the sound department is the only one that is disrespected.

 

[Erik Olson]

In my experience the grips never move slowly. Or the ACs. Camera and electrics and grip seem to work very hard to achieve a common goal - getting picture up and right the first time.

For the sound department, they are often only brought into the process when the picture is up. That presents this department with a real handicap. I rarely see sound included in a meaningful way during blocking. Now, I don't know if that falls on the production mixer or if his 2nd and 3rd simply don't see the need or if there is a conspiracy in the camera department.

I don't think it is any one thing. But there is a division and I don't really understand it. I love my sound operators and production mixers. I especially love them when they've done an amazing job during physical production and I'm the one cutting the mess. Invaluable.

e

 

[Sound Chaser]

In my experience the grips never move slowly. Or the ACs. Camera and electrics and grip seem to work very hard to achieve a common goal - getting picture up and right the first time.

Exactly. Every department except the sound department works for a common goal--to achieve the best picture possible...and that's the pariah curse of audio. Give me a buck for every time I've been told sound is important, or sound is half the picture but, when it comes down to it what you get is "waiting on sound" with an attitude. An AD that transmits that type of vibe just gets the entire crew to develop a poor attitude towards the sound department.

I sometimes have a total of 25 batteries to change, but no one is aware of it because I stay one step a head of the next shot so I am never the cause for a delay even when working solo. The camera department has 4 guys, but they always delay the shoot to change their single battery.

So yeah, every department has it rough sometimes. The grips and AC's work harder than me. But, the difference is I have to be seamless without the benefit of time or cooperation.

p.s. ever got everyone to turn off their cell phones? Just after the AD makes it absolutely clear...you hear that familiar digital clicking code in your phones.

 

[Erik Olson]

I always cooperate with the sound department. But that's likely because I've spent a bit of time in the sound department.

e

 

[Noiz2]

Now your comparing the mixer to a PA? Yes everyone gets hammered from time to time. Sound however gets hammered on just about every show. Sorry if you feel differently but it just happens to be true. Sorry ADR is a falback that only folks who don't do sound think is fine. Film can be brutal on those below the top levels, as you said and guess what you just put the mixer on the lower level and left the DP and visuals on top. The part that really rubs sound folks wrong is that you don't even notice it. IF sound is important at all then two things should be true. First sound should be pulled in when the other artistic participants are. If visuals and sound are close to on par then the mixer, sound supervisor and the DP should start close to the same time. I can name maybe three directors where this is true (I'm sure there are more) but the point is it's the exception - by a LONG shot. Second sound should get some prominent credit position. Watch some credits. Sound is lucky if it gets billing above the honey truck driver. Take a close look that RARELY happens. Even the supervisor and designer almost never get listed above the honey truck driver. I know you think I'm exaggerating but it is actually something that sound folks look for, did you beat out the guy who cleans out the port-o-potties?
No department but sound has been the prominent but of a running joke at the Oscars. When Allen Splet won a special Oscar for Black Stallion and couldn't make it (he was mixing Elephant man in England at the time) he became a running joke through the ceremonies. A couple of years ago the MC (Billy Crystal?) went on and on about how silly it was to give an Oscar for sound, and how nobody knows what sound folks do.

And yes I have been a PA and an assistant and many more things. And I have worked in the non arts sectors where they not only shout at people the have them escorted out the door by security. It wasn't me, but tears and canned beats tears.

And and as a point, lighting can be fixed after the fact about as well as sound can. How about this next time the lighting is off we do a good take of the audio and then you can re-shoot the visual at a later time. OK, re-shooting the dialog is a bit cheaper BUT it is a re-shoot. People run around saying ADR like it a protools plug in, it's a re-shoot, with out the camera.

Sorry if you feel put out but when you have to start fixing the lighting performance etc in post you can whine also.

I'm not talking about shows that suck. If you think sound gets hosed on a few shows that suck then you have no clue about what really goes on.

Just so you don't think I'm just a bitter old man - of course I might be... - there are directors that DO pay attention to sound and DO bring in the sound folks early on and DO get great tracks. It is a great pleasure to work with them, but they are the exception. And it's not taught that way in film schools. Take your average film school course work. Do you ever have to learn much about sound, NO. Why? Because they don't think it matters. Then you get all these graduates who run around saying things like "sound is 1/2 the film, but I didn't budget anything for it".

And one other little point. How much time and money did that PA have invested? Was she bringing $50K of equipment to the set? Did she spend years getting to be good (or better) at what she does? Maybe on the later, though I doubt it, but absolutely not to the former. Is the grip bringing 50K to the set? Don't think so. Is even the DP bringing that kind of overhead to the set?... well no. So maybe, just maybe, you should think of the mixer as a tier or two above the PA.

ANd FYI post is also bringing a BIG nut of equipment and overhead to post. A basic (not tricked out) post sound rig costs 2X-3X what a basic picture edit system costs. And you are also expected to bring a wider skill set to the table.

I'm not dising anybody in the chain. A picture editor is very important, crucial, and I would argue more important often than the sound supervisor, because they have such a story telling impact. And a bad PA can cause great damage to a film. It's very important that everyone come through. But pretty much nobody but sound is supposed to carry that level of overhead.

Nobody really understands the amount of work that goes into something unless they have done it. Post sound folks ***** about the poor tracks from production. Part of the reason I started doing production was to "get an education" on the issues production faces.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my first post but I think that was probably a mistake. You didn't mean to be offensive but you also don't have a clue about sound and how it fits in.

And other departments aren't disrespected? Have you ever been a PA? I've seen a PA get yelled at until she cried. Myself and several other crew members took it up with the AD after the fact and he did nothing about our rampant UPM. So we basically said knock it off or we leave. I was the only crew member that could leave since I was there totally freelance being paid whatever I wanted to get paid since I was brought on to save the drifting shoot schedule.

Gaffers and grips are made to do impossible things with no care in the world. ACs get it rough. Unless you are above the line or upper level below the line, you get disrespected.

Yeah - a lot of people ignore audio. I've seen so many films ignore audio in my short career. To say only the sound department is disrespected is just as insensitive as this post is perceived to you the mixer. I've had people call for slate and didn't get it. But that doesn't mean only the sound department has it rough. If you've ever been a PA or a runner. Then you know. I've seen and heard terrible stories. Every department has it rough.

Audio can be fixed after the fact in ADR. In fact - most films enter ADR phases. You can only get the lighting once. While it is very important to get great location audio - sometimes it is a physical impossibility. But would you sacrifice that over an amazing visual? A whole different argument.

But these points are not only ridiculous but whiny as all hell. Sometimes you get shows that suck. I've been on many. Even ones as DoP above the line where I was miserable. But don't say that the sound department is the only one that is disrespected.

 

[Humanwire]

Then you get all these graduates who run around saying things like "sound is 1/2 the film, but I didn't budget anything for it".

Haha, so true!

I usually end up doing production sound once or twice a year, and it's a whole different beast that post-production sound. It's always a great learning experience.

On a side note, I've been in music scoring sessions where the whole battle is flopped around and it's quite amusing. There's 100 musicians on the scoring stage, and 20 big shots in the booth, all focusing on getting the best sound possible from the musicians. Everyone is "that sound guy" on the scoring stage, so when a camera crew shows up to shoot some of the session, that poor camera person ends up being shi* on instead. It's amusing to see once in a while.

 

[Mattykins]

Well there is where you are wrong. I have done sound before, and I run sound often. Nothing I want to do - but I still do it. Most films enter ADR that go through upper budget anyways. Getting great location sound is awesome - but sometimes next to impossible.

I never said a mixer is on par with a runner or PA. I said if you have been one you know that everyone is disrespected. And some DPs beat your overhead coming in with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Everyone does get disrespected. Even people above the line - which the mixer is not.

I know how difficult an ADR session is. I've done it. I know how much of a pain sound mixing is in post. I've again - done it. I am not underestimating the abilities of the sound department. My first post I said, I don't care who you are, you report department delays. In my above referenced post I said that everyone is disrespected. You read far too much into my posting, and tossed a lot of concepts in there that I never referenced.

I am not hating on the sound department. Since I've been in all phases of sound production, and have turned around several full sound designs through recording to mixing. So I know the pains. Just everyone is disrespected at one point or another. Maybe you bring on a lot of equipment when the production doesn't rent. But I would love to see a sound package worth more than the imaging package for a large budget film. Sure, it costs a lot, but more than say 1 - 2 million? I've brought 500,000 dollar camera packages on set - that's only camera, lenses, and support equipment. 4 times that is 2 million. Not that I am knocking you down, but I do know about production costs, maybe on a lower end film shooting with DVXs, sure - you can get the sound package worth more than the imaging package, but realistically?

So don't get me wrong, I am not hating on you guys. I give the sound department time when I am ADing or directing. I understand what you all have to do. But people get disrespected. End of story. Just because you are a sound op doesn't mean you have more rights than anyone else. That is all I am trying to say.

Best,

Matt

 

[Doc Bernard]

Man, oh man. Everyone hatin' on the sound guys. A couple of people hit it on the head. Many productions focus on the visual aspect of a project, but don't even think about the audio. I can talk quite authoritatively on this.

For all of you saying sound guys are too sensitive, remember audio is an art too. And it has an equal, if not more important, part to a successful project. You can have the greatest framing, light, focus, script, etc. etc. but if the sound sucks, the whole project sucks. Plain and simple. Fudge a little on the lighting, not a production killer.

Yeah sound guys get a bit touchy about cracks and scapegoating. But that's because we seem to always get the short end of the stick on productions and get treated like a redheaded stepchild, yet we have to get the job done and perform miracles. (Yeah, I am venting) But have us call "standby" or "not ready" due to some bizarre sound (jet, hum, train, etc.) that is not a part of the set, it's like we are the problem. But there is always all the time in the world for all of the other crafts. A DP sees a bad glare or shadow, and the world can wait for them to fix it.

Happy Holidays, anyway!

Signed:
A Redheaded Stepchild

 

[TyFord]

Thanks for the fresh air Hunter.

OK, how about:

1. Shooters who call themselves DP and don't know their own cameras menus (especially the audio sections.) Then they get the hots for a B-roll run and when they come back they've switched the camera inputs to the on-board mic and don't tell you. They also have switched the monitor switch to the unaffected channel so you don't know you're feeding line level to a mic level input.

2. Shooters and lighting guys who spend portions of an hour moving a back light around ad nauseum and finally after they have busted the time budget won't let me spend 2 minutes to dress a lav properly.

3. Lighting guys who make me wait until they spend portions of an hour coming up with a lighting "design" that I can't get a boom in without throwing a shadow.

4. Shooters who walk into a location a choose to set the talent right under the noisiest friggin HVAC duct on the planet and when you say there's a problem with that, they get pissed at you, like you're the one causing the problem.

5. Shooters who, when told that something's not right with the headphone feed, say "Yeah, all the sound guys say that. The audio's fine, don't worry about it. AND BTW, the sound is not fine.

6. Shooters who won't let you get room tone.

7. Shooters who won't roll back to check a take, especially the first one, to make sure something's actually sticking to the tape.

8. Shooters who don't maintain their gear so the headphone output jack is as loose as a $20 whore and you can't make good contact.

9. Shooters who change camera input settings without telling you.

10. Lighting guys who use crap dimmers that radiate noise into your audio and get pissed when you inform the producer that you have a noise problem and it's the lights.

11. Producers who want you to use a lav and a boom on a one person sitdown interview, when matching a lav isn't an issue.

12. Shooters who tell you they don't need your tone because their camera generates its own tone.

13. Shooters who tell you to set tone at -12 on a digital camera.

14. Any shooter, lighting guy or other crew member who isn't a team player and needs to feel better about him/herself at the expense of the sound person (or any one else). Especially ones with exceptionally bad senses of humor who try to make fun of, oh, I don't know, the sound guy.

If it's not a team thing, you're doing it wrong. If you don't have respect for the other departments, and you're doing the hiring, you're hiring wrong.

I don't have these problems with any of the good guys I work with. We work as a team and we dig it. The few times I do stray from the pack and work with shooters with the above issues, it's just that they don't have the experience to do the job right. You comin' in here the way you did tells me a lot about you. You're obviously one of those guys. Hunter, get some personal communication skills! And please give me your details so I can be booked if you ever call me.

Season's best,

Ty Ford

PS. Sure. I have more, but you get the drift.
You want to use my gaffers tape too? Let's use yours first, since it's a flag you're trying to set.

 

[Doc Bernard]

nice, tyreeford!

For all of those prima donna shooters who think their stuff don't stink because they shoot the visual, it ain't crap without good audio. Keep that in mind. Unless you are shooting a silent film. But when was the last time that happened?

Productions that spend tens of thousands of dollars on cameras, then think an audio guy is going to come in and do it for almost free aggravate the heck out of me.

And, yeah I am a HVX shooter too, so consider that.

 

[Sound Chaser]

Show me the money

Show me the money

And some DPs beat your overhead coming in with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
I would love to see a sound package worth more than the imaging package for a large budget film. Not that I am knocking you down, but I do know about production costs, maybe on a lower end film shooting with DVXs, sure - you can get the sound package worth more than the imaging package, but realistically?

Matt

Stupid argument. Of course imaging beats audio on LOCATION.
A fair fight is Location imaging package VS Post Audio. END OF ARGUMENT POST AUDIO costs way more. A 12Trk HD deck costs $125K. A heavy installation like DELUXE typically has over 50 decks. Mixing console a mil plus. times 4 rooms plus multiple smaller rooms. Sound costs way more than picture and takes way more time with the combined efforts of a large integrated team.

SECOND, I CHALLENGE YOU TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF KNOWING IT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO AUDIO. SHOW US YOUR WORK

 

[Noiz2]

Stupid argument. Of course imaging beats audio on LOCATION.
A fair fight is Location imaging package VS Post Audio. END OF ARGUMENT POST AUDIO costs way more. A 12Trk HD deck costs $125K. A heavy installation like DELUXE typically has over 50 decks. Mixing console a mil plus. times 4 rooms plus multiple smaller rooms. Sound costs way more than picture and takes way more time with the combined efforts of a large integrated team.

SECOND, I CHALLENGE YOU TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF KNOWING IT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO AUDIO. SHOW US YOUR WORK

Ah, but it's stupider than that. The audio guy is supposed to bring all this in, the DP is not bringing in his OWN 100K camera package. If the poster has only worked on gigs where all the audio was rented he hasn't worked on any real productions. No decent production sound person rents the majority of their equipment, they own it and the production rents it from them. They might rent a few things depending on the shoot and the needs and how big their package is at the time but no pro is using much that they don't own. And while I do believe credits are often very misleading I don't think mister "I've done it all" has worked on anything substantial. For one thing in the professional world sound is fairly specialized. I have "done it all" but only on no budget projects. Production is a very different skill set than post. And the "I don't like it but I've done it when I had to" probably says it all.

Cheers everyone, even non sound people ;~), hand have a happy holiday. May next year be better than it looks.
Cheers
SK

 

[TyFord]

Cheers everyone, even non sound people ;~), hand have a happy holiday. May next year be better than it looks.
Cheers
SK

Amen!

Regards,

Ty Ford

 

[Michael T]

The problem with this thread is the premise of this thread, it's that someone was making fun of a department that they don't work in and specialize in, and they thought it was somewhat humorous to make fun of others not understanding fully the what's and whys of the trade. It's one thing to make fun of yourself and bring up the things that have happened in course of your trade but never make fun of what others do on your behalf even when they get paid. Anyone that disrespects other trades and doesn't give the needed amount of time is either ignorant of post costs or an egotistical idiot. There are plenty of each. If you have to do ADR then you have to, but to keep the cost down and get it done right the first time is what professionals try to do. If sound isn't brought in early and treated as one of the two most important parts of a project then it will always suffer in the end. But there have been untold times that a good sound person has saved the day for a shoot and the project.

Coming form a background as a project manager in construction I understand how many things have to come together to make a complete project. I started out in sound and photography and moved into moving visuals. Like in construction I'm glad that I developed a full understanding for the parts of film making that have to come together to make a successful project. I give sound equally attention and all the time that they need because I only want to do it once. If you don't have the time and money to do it right the first time where the hell are you going to find the time and money to do it a second or third time. I've seen jobs in construction done two and three time because people don't pay attention and have suffered through this in this business as well.

It's better to make fun of yourself than others and to remember the good in people. Hopefully you wont chose to work with idiots in any field and this is Christmas so Merry Christmas to all and to all a very good night and Happy New Year.

Good luck in all that you do in the new year.

 

[Noiz2]

I don't know everything sound wise. I never claimed I did. I just said I know how it is to be an operator. I was never against you. Because I've worked in the department and ran it on a few occasions. But I don't know anything, I don't enjoy working in sound - which is why I don't constantly work as a sound operator.

If this thread taught me anything, it's to not hire any of you guys. I don't hire people like you all on my shows. There should be no one on set that demands more than the other departments.

Well, couple of points. I don't think there is much threat of your hiring any of us. A glance at your site and demo reel sort of point out your not hiring anybody, at least not at living wages. It's also interesting that your demo has no sound at all. I guess it's not surprising since you don't seem to like sound. Nobody asked for "special" treatment, all sound is looking for is maybe 1/2 the time lights gets. It gets a little silly to start "threatening" to not hire folks when you have a few student shorts maybe in your pocket. You've done so much sound work you don't even know what the positions are called. I'm the first to agree that credits are not the best judge of talent or experience but someone who claims to have done it all and talks about "my shows" should have at least ONE credit. Google and IMDB turn up none. Your website has none. Your "reel" has none. This of course does not mean you actually have none but certainly not much or anything that got any press. And in a time when full cast and crew for 5min shorts are getting into IMDB it seems quite likely that you have a student film or two at best and maybe some PA work, but then films usually list the PA's also so????? Your comments also make a lot more sense coming from someone with no professional experience.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Matty, I am curious about your comments regarding set-up. So you are saying cameras are set up and framed while they are setting up lights?

Every professional set I have been on has the set dressed and lit, then they bring out the cameras and ops.

Sound needs that same respect. We need the set to be ready for a shoot so we can hear if there are any problems, not while they are still setting up.

As to not hiring us, I am not worried. I get jobs based on my knowledge and my attitude towards sound. I am very picky about sound and audio. I expect every other craft on a set to be the same about their own work.

Yes, a production needs for all crafts to work together. That is the whole point behind this thread. Short-changing the sound department on time is not working together. Making jokes about "Waiting on sound" is not really working together now, is it? People are not asking for more time than other crafts, just an equal consideration. But you view it as if we are asking too much, but you just said we need to work together.

Part of me is glad you have seen it from a sound guy's point of view, but the other part is disappointed that you really didn't learn anything.

 

[Rippie]

Part of me is glad you have seen it from a sound guy's point of view, but the other part is disappointed that you really didn't learn anything.

I've tried to refrain from posting in this thread the last few days,
wondering if I should have brought any of this up in my first post or not.

I guess deep down, I was hoping 1 or 2 people in the end might be enlightened
just a little wee bit about the frustration "we" sound people deal with,
and maybe just maybe remember it the next time they were on set.


The biggest let down to me is the quote from Doc above..
"but the other part is disappointed that you really didn't learn anything"

From reading his (matty) posts, its sad very sad but I couldn't agree more.