The Perfect Camera 1.0

Mitch Gross said:
Not if it doesn't have the connectivity or processing power.
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The latest iPhones have vastly more compute power while using very little energy compared to the top cinema cameras- Alexas, VENICE etc. Valid point on connectivity though that didn’t stop Soderbergh.

If we could simply attach a premium sensor and lens system to an iPhone- with the custom programmability, dedicated AI hardware, GPU etc. we could create some amazing customized camera experiences and tools!

AI AWB is going to be awesome too (in general: AI accurate calibrated color- current camera color handling is due for a major update).
 
Sorry, I'm just not seeing the full range of applications this can be used for. Broadcast TV requires tons of flexibility. It's why most people still shoot on the old 2/3" shoulder cameras with lenses that have extenders. It's a one size fits all solution for that application. There is need for phantom powered full size XLR, built in ND filters, 2x extenders built into the lens (not a software option that takes digging through menus). Ask anyone who is in the thick of it daily, and the camera pictured in the OP is impractical and the only time you see it in a scrum is cause a kid with a Youtube channel got a credential somehow.
 
I would say that JCS's rig is a great broll setup (I should know I fly my 5DIV on a crane 2 also) It's light, easy to setup, and produces nice stable shots wit good dynamic range and low light capablities. The dual pixel autofocus touchscreen is also essential in my opinion as far as flying a camera on a gimbal. I wouldn't use it for interviews, sports, or a wide variety of applications, but if my goal was to quickly pickup lots of broll for a client, I could get around very effeciently with this type of setup.

Here is an example. I shot the following concert with the 5DIV on a crane 2. The concert only lasted an hour. I had a Sony FS7 on sticks running in the back and I took my drone out for about 5 minutes total. The rest of the time was spent running around with the gimbal and was able to get a whole section of awsome shots in pretty very low light conditions:

 
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@egproductions looks pretty good, thanks for sharing. The 5D4 & EOS R apparently have the same sensor, along with a gimbal make excellent tools for stable capture in a wide range of conditions (especially with auto ISO & AWB). While it's true AWB can sometimes be a pain, I've found it mostly useful when moving around uncontrolled lighting (along with auto ISO). For studio/controlled shots, everything is set manually.

This isn't a rig for everything, it's a rig that does everything needed to get stable in-focus shots with good audio when needing to move around creatively, especially for walking and running.
 
jcs said:
This isn't a rig for everything...
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Then how is it, as your thread title suggests, the perfect camera? This is why it’s futile trying to assign an objective value to such a subjective matter.

There is no such thing as “the perfect camera”. Full stop. There may be an ideal camera or ideal camera rig... but that’s also a completely relative value, based on available technology, and the needs and shooting style of the individual.
 
Alex H. said:
... There may be an ideal camera or ideal camera rig... but that’s also a completely relative value, based on available technology, and the needs and shooting style of the individual.
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The "available technology" is a fast moving target too.

We've briefly discussed Nikon P1000 on another thread. If you need reach on a budget, its 3000 mm is pretty hard to beat. Great for BiF, great for some sports. So, yes, it's horses for courses but JCS's rig does cover a lot of needs.
 
My rig that I built last year isn't that different than JCS' rig. I get where he is coming from in putting it together, these sorts of systems are wonderful for event, documentary and just out shooting b-roll in the real world, they let you bring cameras into places where a professional camera would immediately get you booted.
My rig is also the Crane 2 but I went for the Fuji XT-3 over the Canon because the Canon's crop factor in 4K, Jellovision and other limitations at a considerably higher cost ruled it out for me. In my experience, flippy screens are useless in bright sunlight so I use the Atomos Shinobi with it's excellent, overpriced hood to see
what I am framing, if its in focus, see what the camera LUT is actually giving me, adds a waveform display that almost all of the mirrorless cameras lack.

To me, putting a $2k shotgun on any camera is a huge waste of money, massive overkill for ambient sound but different strokes I guess?

But going back to more pro cameras, yes, this rig is far from perfect for most professional use that isn't documentary, event or perhaps corporate/YouTube? Gimbals get tiresome, the motion signature is robotic and as much as I like my Crane 2, I shoot handheld a lot of the time also with a SmallRig cage with the same outboard gear gear, total weight is about 5lbs,
enough to tame the micro jitters but not heavy enough to wear you down shooting with it. And my mic for grabbing ambient is $79.00, not $2,000.00 ;-) These days, I am still shooting interviews and tripod based material with my C200 shooting Cinema RAW Light and using the Crane 2/XT-3 rig for stuff where being mobile is more important than pure quality. I really like built in NDs, XLR connections and shooting 12-bit RAW. I rented an Alexa Mini, fully rigged out for tripod shooting a few weeks ago for a shoot for Fox and that was a cool camera as well, there is something to that beautiful Arri image.

Overall, I am one foot in both worlds, I like the small, prosumer stuff and the freedom it gives you to shoot much easier and unencumbered in the real world. But I also like shooting with bigger. heavier pro cameras for many situations too, I like having ACs and cine lenses and handing off audio to pro sound mixer instead of
having to do everything myself. I heavily agree with Alex, our world of production is still plenty diverse to where there is definitely no perfect camera/rig. These are all just tools for visual storytelling, right so we all use different tools, at different times, to achieve different goals.
 
@Alex H- it's functionally perfectly competent:

  • Color Science / Skin Tones
  • Dynamic Range (Log Support)
  • Autofocus
  • Audio Quality
  • Stable Shots
  • Light Enough for One Hand

It's also absurd that we have to use all these pieces to get competent level quality. It's totally possible today to build a camera system which more elegantly incorporates all those competencies (and more!) into a single camera system. Yet there's always an element or two (or more) crippled / left out. Why is that?

If I want to break it down and just use the camera, see the Venice video example earlier in this thread. It's borderline competent IMO with the OIS + digital IS being the weakest link (when there's no wind, the built in stereo mics sound decent). Mounting on a tripod works too. However for maximum flexibility, the full list provides competent footage in 7.5lbs and can be held with one hand. For those who haven't tried it, try it before you knock it!

@puredrifting- X-T3 is cool, it's got superior detail (6K => 4K) and less RS, + 10-bit, however why did Fuji break the AF with FW 3.0?? It's one thing to cripple a camera before launch, but after? This is from April 2019: https://www.fujix-forum.com/threads/x-t3-focus-hunting.90650/
If you had a CMIT5U laying around, purchased years before, would you find ways to use it? Who cares how much it costs- I'm using a $32 preamp to power it! The results are competent- could use other mics, however the CMIT5U is arguably the best shotgun mic ever made, its super light, and blue is cool.

With a gimbal, and even handheld with digital IS, the EOS R's RS hasn't been a problem- see if you can spot any issues in the Venice Beach video- tons of whip pans for the basketball shots.

This camera rig is perfect in that it checks all those boxes in the list above. Look forward to a single component camera that can do the same and be ergonomic & look stylish too (might happen in the phone space first given the rate camera companies are dragging their feet, sand-bagging, and crippling their cameras). Until then, this rig is really fun to work with and the results are perfectly competent!
 
jcs said:
What's it take to rig up the F55 with 17-120 to be competent per this list:

  • Color Science / Skin Tones
  • Dynamic Range (Log Support)
  • Autofocus
  • Audio Quality
  • Stable Shots
  • Light Enough for One Hand

Not possible and you don't really care, since it works for your needs, right? That's your opinion and these are mine, with different points of view. DLD & I (+perhaps NorBro) are letting everyone know what's coming, and how the market is changing. DLD clearly is doing a lot of research and supporting assertions with facts. I come from the creative tech world, where we've built software & hardware imaging systems for many years, as well as simulators, robotics, and AI. Creating content and developing new technology is fun, and that's why we keep pushing the envelope. If I worked as a pro camera operator, I'd use ARRI cameras, Cooke & Leica lenses, and eagerly await smaller, lighter, AI & robotic-enhanced gear. Anyone in F1 complaining about wanting a manual clutch (OK it's more fun lol)?

We're letting everyone know what's coming: small, light, automated / robotics. If one is offended / angry, ask yourself why? No one is telling you what gear to buy or how to do your job, however the trend is clear, and probably in one's best interest to be aware of trends when investing/selling gear.

What's the number one rental for high end cameras- ARRI full size or the Minis?
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  • Color Science / Skin Tones : No problem, slog 2 & 3, RAW, XOCN and incredibly deep paint menu. Just look at Vinyl and The Crown, both shot on the F55. If you or your colorist can't make the 55 look good, it's not the camera.
  • Dynamic Range (Log Support) : slog 2, slog 3, RAW, XOCN
  • Autofocus : No, but not really a big deal. Side note: 17-120 is actually compatible with Canon C series with AF, or so they say. Never tried it, my 300 is a MKI.
  • Audio Quality : 24 bit/48khz, 2 full sized XLR inputs, line/mic/48v phantom, switchable to 4 ch AES/EBU
  • Stable Shots : As stable as the operator and their support of choice, whether it's their shoulder or tripod or Steadicam or gimbal or jib, etc.
  • Light Enough for One Hand : Depends on what you consider "one hand" operation. By my definition, even at 20lbs+, yes.
 
F55 is also $28,000 retail and a full shooting package can run over $80,000. And you can't exactly set it on a gimbal. But, like I said, courses for horses.

Overall, whatever cameras are announced in the next few weeks, there's still going to be several tiers. Whether A6700 is going to beat XT-3 on performance - watch out for that 8-bit - or whether C500 MKII is going to be C700 in a C200 body for half the price of C300, there's a great likelihood of another technological leap and a sizeable increase in the value of electronics.

Side note - by offering several sensor crops, a camera manufacturer can extend the reach of a lens. Pocket6K has a 2.8K crop, although I haven't seen the visual comparison of that with the 6K framing. Other manufacturers are less charitable in that regard.

PS. I hated "Vinyl" - the fakest looking show there was. Which has nothing to do with the camera itself.
 
Perfect camera for me

Panavision's Millennium XL2
Primo Prime lenses


(realization of a dream camera)
 
DLD said:
F55 is also $28,000 retail and a full shooting package can run over $80,000. And you can't exactly set it on a gimbal. But, like I said, courses for horses.

Overall, whatever cameras are announced in the next few weeks, there's still going to be several tiers. Whether A6700 is going to beat XT-3 on performance - watch out for that 8-bit - or whether C500 MKII is going to be C700 in a C200 body for half the price of C300, there's a great likelihood of another technological leap and a sizeable increase in the value of electronics.

Side note - by offering several sensor crops, a camera manufacturer can extend the reach of a lens. Pocket6K has a 2.8K crop, although I haven't seen the visual comparison of that with the 6K framing. Other manufacturers are less charitable in that regard.

PS. I hated "Vinyl" - the fakest looking show there was. Which has nothing to do with the camera itself.
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Cost was never thrown out as any of the criteria. And one could argue your $80K figure, just like my VariCam LT figure was argued against. The only thing I had to add to my F55 was a shoulder mount, which I already owned, and a battery plate to get me to gold mount and an EF adapter. I did go with a top plate and new handle, but it wasn’t necessary to get it up and running.

I also call BS on the gimbal argument. One of the first shoots I took my 55 out on, it was flown on an original Ronin almost the entire day. Thank God I wasn’t doing it, but it was done.

P.S.: I’ve never actually watched Vinyl, but lots of people liked the look. I have however watched The Crown and do like it.

Almost any camera can look good or bad. This goes back to Beta, film, anything really.

I do agree with you on “horses for courses”. And I think that’s the way we all feel. These tools all have their places. What’s rubbing people is the pushing of the agenda(or the perception of it, anyway) that the little camera on gimbals are for everything, when they are not.
 
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jcs said:
The latest iPhones have vastly more compute power while using very little energy compared to the top cinema cameras- Alexas, VENICE etc. Valid point on connectivity though that didn’t stop Soderbergh.

If we could simply attach a premium sensor and lens system to an iPhone- with the custom programmability, dedicated AI hardware, GPU etc. we could create some amazing customized camera experiences and tools!

AI AWB is going to be awesome too (in general: AI accurate calibrated color- current camera color handling is due for a major update).
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That's actually just wrong. While a phone does have a lot of computational strength, it is a different type of processing and it needs to happen in different priorities and cycles from what a camera does. Cell phones can be created with expensive processors and lots of advanced programming because even an unsuccessful model with sell many tens of thousdands of units. A powerful Samsung or Applemodel will sell millions. A very successful camera will sell fewer units than an unsuccessful cell phone, and there's a lot more moving parts to it. I will not go into details but there is absolutely an efficiency to designing and building a product when it is on a vastly grander scale of shipping product.
 
Run&Gun said:
Cost was never thrown out as any of the criteria. And one could argue your $80K figure, just like my VariCam LT figure was argued against...
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I looked up B&H when typing it and the first thing I was was an $83,000 streaming version. Like I said, up to.

Anyway, let's see what the next month will bring. Rumors abound.
 
@Run&Gun- looks like you dig your gear for your needs, and it works well for you. Holding one's arm outstretched with a ~20lb weight for a long period of time is going to put a lot of stress & wear on the joints/tendons (leading to RSI's)- have you done this for more than a few minutes? Impressive if anyone can do this for any length of time and get good shots, especially when running around and quickly changing direction.

Cost is no object for this discussion- the higher end cameras have no usable AF yet, and they're too big & heavy for single handed gimbal shooting for most people. Have you tried shooting with a one-handed gimbal set up?

Mitch Gross said:
That's actually just wrong. While a phone does have a lot of computational strength, it is a different type of processing and it needs to happen in different priorities and cycles from what a camera does. Cell phones can be created with expensive processors and lots of advanced programming because even an unsuccessful model with sell many tens of thousdands of units. A powerful Samsung or Applemodel will sell millions. A very successful camera will sell fewer units than an unsuccessful cell phone, and there's a lot more moving parts to it. I will not go into details but there is absolutely an efficiency to designing and building a product when it is on a vastly grander scale of shipping product.
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Facts:

https://www.apple.com/iphone-xs/a12-bionic/
https://wccftech.com/apple-a12-specifications-features-cores/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/apple-a12-and-a12x-socs.60727/page-7
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-A12X-Bionic-SoC.354571.0.html (Rivals desktop CPU performance!)

7nm process (5nm is coming soon), 6.9 billion transistors (A12, A12X = 10 billion), 5 Trillion Ops Sec AI engine, 471GFLOPS (GPU), 744 GHFOPS (1/2 precision (16-bit: still more than cameras need for RGB/Bayer processing)). + the CPU! (rivals desktops, see link above).

Sure, market scale is why phones are so powerful and effectively low cost; the discussion is actual compute performance.

There's no magical processing happening in dedicated camera systems: it's mostly integer math and linear algebra (pretty simple in the realm of mathematics); even AI inferencing can do OK with fixed point integer.

Look forward to this level of compute power making its way to dedicated cameras for improved AF, color, stabilization, better usability (including voice & gesture control!), and overall image quality.

EDIT: downvoting facts with no counter argument- you don't find facts helpful? Downvoting is intended to provide feedback if posts are helpful (accurate, facts) or not (inaccurate, non-factual) vs. something you don't like.
 
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One hand operation can be done with right hand on the grip, camera on the shoulder and EVF as third point of contact.
When the sensor is positioned above the middle of the shoulder, IS on the lens is very effective.

Thumb for record button, AF button and joystick operation (control of iris, zoom and whatever you want to map), middle and index finger for zoom and that's it. One hand operation.

If balanced well, it less fatiguing then holding 7.5 lbs stretched out.

How do you operate perfect camera on the gimbal with one hand?

How do you reframe when filming events?

How is it functional when you are unable to come closer then 50 feet?

Setup you presented is POV camera.
 
jcs said:
... If we could simply attach a premium sensor and lens system to an iPhone- with the custom programmability, dedicated AI hardware, GPU etc. we could create some amazing customized camera experiences and tools!
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Yes! Let's start with an a really nice S35 sensor. To that we'll add a PL mount for good cinema lenses. Add some room for an ND wheel. We'll need some big heat sinks so we can crank the frame rate. Then add a bunch of tactile buttons for quick access to functions and put them where they need to be. A high quality EVF so we can see what we are doing. We'll need an external battery because that sensor uses a lot of power. Add a few locking connectors for audio and video. A few other bits and I think we will have it. When we're done, it might look like this:





PANA VLT HERO LHS._1463750618.1888.jpg
 
Paul F said:
Yes! Let's start with an a really nice S35 sensor. To that we'll add a PL mount for good cinema lenses. Add some room for an ND wheel. We'll need some big heat sinks so we can crank the frame rate. Then add a bunch of tactile buttons for quick access to functions and put them where they need to be. A high quality EVF so we can see what we are doing. We'll need an external battery because that sensor uses a lot of power. Add a few locking connectors for audio and video. A few other bits and I think we will have it. When we're done, it might look like this:





View attachment 136543
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Where's that LIKE button when you need it?
 
I don't get the obsession with autofocus here. That's a complete non-issue for me, so it would never factor into my idea of a "perfect camera." I don't know the last time I even used it, except to demonstrate it for one reason or another (might have been in the CX350 videos).
 
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