The old, the new, and the new new. Price-Quality-Options on models past and present

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I have been looking at DSLR's again, as I do enjoy keeping a smaller and less power hungry camera around. So, I started poking at what is available, and found that there are a lot of great options. Sure, none of them have the IQ i would like (not even Arri and Red quench the need there), but they all excel at something.

Older 2nd gen dslr's are cheap enough to buy on a whim.

Point and Shoots have usable 1080p, great zoom ranges, manageable ISO performance, and sometimes even built in ND!

Current generation cameras are getting very nice, and if you are willing to pay$3K-$7K, there are a lot of very capable options, (even a Scarlet brain can be had for that).

My question, is what are you guys and gals looking at now? I am thinking more inline with film making as a personal hobby, more than renting and getting work from it. Using a camera that you can take any where and is fairly unobtrusive.

I recently noticed the Canon 60D was under $500, and remember how easy it was to operate that little thing. All the controls for the core functions where all accessible by the right hand, freeing up the left hand to keep the manual lens alert and responsive to whatever might happen.

Then I started noticing some Sony P/S cameras, which are very small and look better than GoPro video, have a built in zoom and a couple of them have ND, like the RX100 mIII. Started to think how was it would be to film with it everywhere.

The ML raw options, The BMPCC, The Nikon Mojo, The A7S low light, LX(take-me-with-you)100, and on and on.

Considering how slow the "revolution" has happened, compared to how fast we wanted it to, there really is a lot of compelling options for cameras, as there is not a 10bit, 12.5 stops DR, global shutter, pleasing skin tones, killer of a camera out there yet, and maybe never will exist in the sub $3500 range, BUT, there are plenty of gadgety and fun cameras out there right now. Which ones are interesting to you?
 
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I picked up a Canon M2 as an impulse purchase while in Japan. I haven't done much video with it yet, but I think it might have some potential... Small, manual controls, picture styles can be loaded, Magic Lantern available, could be good. It's not going to replace my C100 or 5D3 for proper work, but for walk around stuff it will go with me a lot more often than those other two simply because it fits in a pocket.
 
I've done quite a bit of work on an EOS-M. I don't know why it got such a cold reception in the States, other than the latest trend in professional dreamers is to be picky to the point of being impossible to please when it comes to cameras. Perhaps if more folks would actually pick up a camera and start doing stuff with it, rather than picking apart web-compressed samples from random Intenet reviews (anyone can post one, ya know), they might find that they can get good stuff out of any camera as long as they now how to work it.

Perhaps Canon didn't do the best job of marketing their first mirrorless, as well. For whatever reason, the M series simply has not found its niche on this side of world, and that's a shame.

The EOS-M is a stellar camera for the money, and it's very compact for a travel kit. I never even installed ML as I get what I need out of it as-is, with some picture profiles installed. It's sad that the M3 (the best iteration yet, based on the features and design) will not hit the US market.
 
combatentropy said:
Surely there is a reason you fell upon the number 12.5.
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That is approximately when digital starts to look good. Sure, 11 will get you by, but 12.5 is really when things start to look good in digital. And it seems to be an accessible specification, all camera manufactures seem to have a sensor that is capable of nearly 12stops DR in raw.

I don't really need the flatness, but smoother highlight roll off would be very welcome. I like the look of what most 9 stop DR cameras when it comes to contrast, but their highlights clip poorly, so having an extra few stops to smooth out clipping would be awesome.

Though, when it would come to a top tier pro camera, I would like something in the 20+ stops DR. I found limits even with the Dragon. But in the Day to day low end, I think anything from 12 up is usable. Anything below that, and I am either forced to shoot in soft light, or embrace an aesthetic that has digital clipping or very dark shadows.
 
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Alex H. said:
I've done quite a bit of work on an EOS-M. I don't know why it got such a cold reception in the States, other than the latest trend in professional dreamers is to be picky to the point of being impossible to please when it comes to cameras. Perhaps if more folks would actually pick up a camera and start doing stuff with it, rather than picking apart web-compressed samples from random Intenet reviews (anyone can post one, ya know), they might find that they can get good stuff out of any camera as long as they now how to work it.
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You are right. Some of those old 7D/5D videos on vimeo are still wonderful.

Alex H. said:
Perhaps Canon didn't do the best job of marketing their first mirrorless, as well. For whatever reason, the M series simply has not found its niche on this side of world, and that's a shame.
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I am also surprised that mirror less did not do better (I recommend mirror less to most of my family and friends when they ask for a camera). But a lot of people still don't really understand what it is, and prefer to spend that money on a DSLR.

Alex H. said:
The EOS-M is a stellar camera for the money, and it's very compact for a travel kit. I never even installed ML as I get what I need out of it as-is, with some picture profiles installed. It's sad that the M3 (the best iteration yet, based on the features and design) will not hit the US market.
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I was very excited about the EOS M when it came out. But I had a 60D at the time. I may take a look at the Canon M2.
 
My votes would be:

Under $2k
Used A7S or BMCC

Under $1k
BMPCC

All have 13 stops of DR or more and good sensitivity and great color, which to me is way more important than any 10bit or global shutter or even 4k for ultra low budget work
 
nyvz said:
My votes would be:

Under $2k
Used A7S or BMCC

Under $1k
BMPCC

All have 13 stops of DR or more and good sensitivity and great color, which to me is way more important than any 10bit or global shutter or even 4k for ultra low budget work
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I feel stupid every day for not picking up a bmpcc when they were half price. That camera had the rocky start with the orbs and wide lens selections, but nowadays most of that is in the past.
 
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Panny and Sony's all in one zoom cameras are pretty interesting. LX100 seeming to take the edge for video. May be the first Panny I actually end up getting for my self. (bought a G or GX series for someone else a while back).

I have been enjoying shooting video with my phone, but miss long lens perspectives. If I had a phone with a dual lens system, one wide, one long, I would possibly just use that for the rest of my life.
 
What kind of codec do you want to have to deal with in your NLE? AVCHD can be problematic depending on your software, RAW video formats have their list of challenges, but H.264 and Prores work with almost anything. DSLRs along with great photos will give you about 11 stops of DR in video mode with a flat profile, and there are hacks available for both Canon & Nikon. I personally prefer Nikon's color, and their cheap lens options are hard to beat.
 
I have played and used alot of cameras on jobs and for fun. All of todays cameras can get it done but I have to put the Samsung NX1 on the top. I have loved mine since I pulled it out of the box. Such a great stills and motion camera for small jobs or just backpacking while still having an amazing image that can beat the best of them.
 
Darktide Media said:
I have played and used alot of cameras on jobs and for fun. All of todays cameras can get it done but I have to put the Samsung NX1 on the top. I have loved mine since I pulled it out of the box. Such a great stills and motion camera for small jobs or just backpacking while still having an amazing image that can beat the best of them.
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Admittedly a very attractive camera! I have to try one out soon. I like everything i am hearing about this one. A lot of potential and bang for buck. Most of the inages i am seeing give larger cameras a run for their mony, and the form factor seems to be a great balance between small and not too small. Also, Samsung seems very attentive to improving based on user feedback.
 
The NX1 is really interesting, but more because of the potential and the fact Samsung seems to be listening and acting fast than because of what it can do today. I think you won't like the limited DR (better than the Canons using internal H.264, but not as good as the a7S or the pocket), and may be worried by the bad rolling shutter in 4K mode (but it becomes great at 1080p, so you have near-global-shutter available if you need it), current H.265 workflow (not Samsung's fault), and lack of SpeedBooster (again not Samsung's fault).

My summary nowadays is: whichever camera you buy (almost), you can do awesome stuff with it. Plenty of good-enough options around (almost any current Canon, Nikon or Sony) and some good-enough-in-general-plus-I-absolutely-rock-at-something options too (pocket, a7S, NX1, GH4, 5D3+RAW). Now more than ever, your skill will determine image quality much more than your camera.
 
If you are looking for some of the nicest skin tones- deep rich nuanced color, and you like full frame optics, the 5DMk2 + ML RAW is the one. 14 bit cDNG all the way. And yes, the 5Dmk2 NOT the Mk3 as the color needs more work and the texture out of the Mk3 RAW is slightly more video like than the Mk2. The Mk2 is a little rougher which somehow feels like texture in a good way. However you must process with Adobe's debayer, NOT Resolve. On a decent system you can edit CDNG natively in Premiere Pro CC- and do all your color correction within Premiere- unless you have a real sticky problem. You can process cDNG through ACR in After Effects, but that certainly adds a layer of post, and we all love direct to edit footage do we not? BTW ACR's highlight slider will recover a stop of highlight latitude at least, maybe more. BTW I just bought two 5DMk2's- one for $1100 and then one for $700. The latter was beat up but everything works. Also I do my own color correction/grading in Resolve and recently started grading cDNG using RGB curves and other color tools direct in Premiere.

You can shoot a hot sweaty face under the noon sun in the tropics and get away with it. Severe look, but not blown out like anything but an Alexa. Or F65 shooting RAW.

Never shot with a Black Magic camera other than Ursa- not a real fan of the Ursa shooting cDNG or Prores. I'd like to test the BMCC and BMPCC with appropriate speed boosters.

Friends have not been crazy about the A7S color and skintones- I haven't shot with it- curious though. Personally I dread the thought of an external recorder and relying on HDMI connectors if trying to record with 7Q+ or Shogun. Nothing else has the low light capability however.

The NX1 is indeed interesting. I owned one for 3 weeks then returned it. Converted 4K and 1080 to Prores with the free Rock Mountain Movie Converter. Can't push the color around much in post, but if you shoot WYSIWYG not bad. The DR is a problem but the shoulder/roll off isn't bad when it does clip. The ebay seller Ciecio7 makes a great PL adapter for it- which I still have and will be keeping. Much better than his early PL adapters.

Used FS700R's keep coming down in price- I have the 7Q and I did shoot a feature with the FS700 RAW + 7Q, so I keep thinking about picking one up when they get cheaper still. Very capable camera despite it's blemishes. naturally need the 7Q and shoot RAW or Prores and not bother with the internal recording- except to use as a last chance backup (I always double record if given the opportunity). Solid Camera made some great accessories for the FS700- like a great PL mount.

So interesting times indeed to have cameras for personal projects.
 
Samuel H said:
My summary nowadays is: whichever camera you buy (almost), you can do awesome stuff with it. Plenty of good-enough options around (almost any current Canon, Nikon or Sony) and some good-enough-in-general-plus-I-absolutely-rock-at-something options too (pocket, a7S, NX1, GH4, 5D3+RAW). Now more than ever, your skill will determine image quality much more than your camera.
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klk said:
So interesting times indeed to have cameras for personal projects.
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I have to concur with you two on this! A lot of cameras out there that can be used in a variety of ways.
 
every manufacture has something available. The Sony RX100mk3, most cinematic and practical zoom range with 1.8 max ap and built in ND. Oh, an fits in the pocket. drool.
First 12secs of this video could totally be an indy film or documentary:
Pulls heavy on some miniDV nostalgia for me, but actually better than most old miniDV cameras, and oh yeah, fits in a pocket (with 50mb/s codec, built in ND, and f/1.8???). From the footage I have seen, the highlights blowout a bit harshly, and the skin tones in lowlight are not that great, but they are generally lighting situations I would avoid with anything but a A7s or 1DC. I am going to go test one of these things out and get back to you. If I end up hating it, I may go for an older APSC dslr or LX100.

Whoever bought a 5Dmk2 early on, totally lucked out. It is the camera that not only revolutionized prosumer video, but it is still a bench mark in video quality, both in H.264 and raw video. There is a mojo to the skin tones that the mk3 did not replicate, imho. And as much as I hate to say it, I tend to prefer the colors in a variety of daylight and incandescent scenarios better than some Nikons.

The LX100 is really tempting, for something the size of a P/S, but competes with a GH4 IQ. Thumbs up. Going to keep my

All of the first and sec on gen APC dslr/mirrorless cameras can be had for $500 or less. Make one wonder why even bother paying for a GoPro these days.
 
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