The New F

[petermullett]

+1 Peter

Basically, if the camera does what you need it to do, no need to shell out additional $$

And there is always something called renting.

With today's GoPro announcement of a GoPro 3 that will do 2.7K 24fps 1080 and up to 4K at 15fps (all for $399), we are definitely into a trend of resolution beyond HD. I also feel this is ultimately more viable than the 3D fiasco which they tried to force on us a couple of years ago. New Sony hardware is in part capitalizing upon this resolution revolution.

Yes. Sony is very stoked about the upcoming technology.

Ah.. film cameras. While I may yearn for simpler days, I wouldn't have much of a profession as a technology writer....

Ned

Hello Ned, how's things?

I totally agree about renting, the good option we all tend to overlook.

I got some pre-release information on the Aaton Delta this summer and it immediately sent me mentally assessing my dwindling recourses to see if I could add another Aaton to those that I still own, but sense and reality prevailed. If and when a project comes up where I could use such a tool I'll call Abel's rental department or Aaton directly if I'm still here in France, then rent the camera for the shoot. I will try to visit Aaton in Grenoble though while I am still here to see the Delta for real.

Whatever this new "F whatever" turns out to be I know I'll still be using my F3 for the foreseeable future. Except for the EVF issue I have worked around everything else that I wasn't happy with, even the initially much maligned 18-256 zoom has worked out way better than I expected. I did a shoot yesterday taking all my CP Primes, a couple of Nikkors and the Red 18-50, but the Sony zoom stayed on the camera all day and the results were very nice indeed.

Anyway...
3D? What were they thinking?
4K? For nearly everything I do it's way more than what's required. My last 4K job was shot this year on S16 for a short film, transferred / colour corrected to 4K.......But you're probably right. 4K is the next horizon we will be encouraged to spend our way to.

Of course I am going to be interested in whatever Sony is coming up with in a couple of weeks, but I'll be sticking with the F3 and the hope that Sony will continue with the solid firmware upgrades to this fine piece of kit.

Best....Peter

 

[nsoltz]

There is already another thread going on 4k, but what 4K offers even to someone delivering in HD is greater resolution and more options for cropping, reframing, etc. Just like at the beginning of HD where we contended that HD downrezed to SD delivered better image than just shooting SD.

Shooting in 4K also allows future-proofing of projects for such time that there are consumer 4K delivery and viewing solutions. That is going to be a much greater likelihood than 3D.

Ned

 

[Tata Steva]

...more options for cropping, reframing, etc. ...

And then you can leave your DP at home. Just take your GAZZILION K camera, point, shoot and... You will fix EVERYTHING (reframe, compose, color, render, bake, boil,...) in post...

 

[HD Studio Belgium]

What if ... it was moire like a camera head ? ... Choice of codecs in separate modules ? And choice of recorder and recording media ? Modular camera ?
In other words ... a RED with a SONY touch. ... I am only saying.

 

[starcentral]

And then you can leave your DP at home. Just take your GAZZILION K camera, point, shoot and... You will fix EVERYTHING (reframe, compose, color, render, bake, boil,...) in post...

Likely more predominant in commercial and film production (ie. not broadcast, ENG, live coverage, etc.. etc..) reframing is extremely common and an important part of high-end film productions whether they are planned or unplanned. This can have to do with laziness for sure, or also the thousands per hour running on a meter for certain film shoots. Directors call the shots and their ass is on the line so sometimes these decisions are made intentionally.

4k has uses far behind simple reframing or cropping. Roger Deakins says he can not see any difference between 2k and 4k scanned film but where that extra rez is really put to use is for stabilization of footage shot steadicam, handheld, cranes, dolly, etc... sometimes there is just not enough time to go for "one more take". These things have to dealt with in post. Also many films we watch use digital post zooms and rarely do people pickup on it. I've seen master wides go to medium shot or even CU, and it was done in post. Film can hold up to this task, and so can 4k. HD not so much. How much time would it have cost to do a dolly from master wide to MED or CU pulling focus, getting it smooth and perfect, how many takes can you afford when you are burning through what can be dozens of setups per day and the director is already pissy and telling you "not to worry".

4k also poses some interesting lens benefits as I've been writing about in the B4 2/3" adapter thread here on DVX. You can use a 2/3" 8mm-80mm ENG lens on a 4k sensor and end up with perfect 720p footage. Engage the 2x extender built into the lens and now you have a 16mm-160mm powered zoom in something a little more resolution than HD. Use an optical adapter to magnify it a further 1.5x and now you have enough to cover the entire sensor, not to mention a powered 20-300mm @ f4. Man that is slick! All for the low cost of a $1500 ENG lens.

Anyway in the end I feel post-production is a tool equally if not more important than the camera itself.

 

[Kholi]

I was wrong about the Full Frame.

Bigger announcement than anyone really expects... Sony's kind of a loose canon now, no pun intended.

Looking forward to it.

 

[FelixGER]

It surely will be a killer camera, but it will be priced accordingly so I assume it´s nothing for 95 % of the forum except for renting maybe.

 

[Kholi]

That's actually incorrect, x2, but 30th's not far away and I doubt it won't leak before then, anyway.

=T Where is Panasonic?

 

[starcentral]

I was wrong about the Full Frame.

Bigger announcement than anyone really expects... Sony's kind of a loose canon now, no pun intended.

Looking forward to it.

Ah yes, remember back in the day when RED (Jim) had that problem then was razzed for centuries resulting in the eventual and final announcement that nothing will be announced until it is indeed announced?

lol

That's actually incorrect, x2, but 30th's not far away and I doubt it won't leak before then, anyway.

=T Where is Panasonic?

Quite content with pseudo large format sensors. Quite shocking actually since I always thought of them as pioneers, followed by Sony, and lastly Canon who was always always last in the game.

 

[JCummings]

Shooting in 4K also allows future-proofing of projects for such time that there are consumer 4K delivery and viewing solutions.

Consumer 4K delivery? I doubt there will be a Green-Ray or 4K-Ray. So that leaves delivery by our friends like Comcast and Time Warner. They still can't manage 1080. 4K streaming? I'll be in a nursing home or dead by then and won't be able to see it anyway.

 

[starcentral]

Consumer 4K delivery? I doubt there will be a Green-Ray or 4K-Ray. So that leaves delivery by our friends like Comcast and Time Warner. They still can't manage 1080. 4K streaming? I'll be in a nursing home or dead by then and won't be able to see it anyway.

I just streamed an HD movie through Roku box and it used 1GB of bandwidth! Can't imagine consumers will give a crap about 4k.

 

[Tata Steva]

Likely more predominant in commercial and film production (ie. not broadcast, ENG, live coverage, etc.. etc..) reframing is extremely common and an important part of high-end film productions whether they are planned or unplanned. This can have to do with laziness for sure, or also the thousands per hour running on a meter for certain film shoots. Directors call the shots and their ass is on the line so sometimes these decisions are made intentionally.

4k has uses far behind simple reframing or cropping. Roger Deakins says he can not see any difference between 2k and 4k scanned film but where that extra rez is really put to use is for stabilization of footage shot steadicam, handheld, cranes, dolly, etc... sometimes there is just not enough time to go for "one more take". These things have to dealt with in post. Also many films we watch use digital post zooms and rarely do people pickup on it. I've seen master wides go to medium shot or even CU, and it was done in post. Film can hold up to this task, and so can 4k. HD not so much. How much time would it have cost to do a dolly from master wide to MED or CU pulling focus, getting it smooth and perfect, how many takes can you afford when you are burning through what can be dozens of setups per day and the director is already pissy and telling you "not to worry".

4k also poses some interesting lens benefits as I've been writing about in the B4 2/3" adapter thread here on DVX. You can use a 2/3" 8mm-80mm ENG lens on a 4k sensor and end up with perfect 720p footage. Engage the 2x extender built into the lens and now you have a 16mm-160mm powered zoom in something a little more resolution than HD. Use an optical adapter to magnify it a further 1.5x and now you have enough to cover the entire sensor, not to mention a powered 20-300mm @ f4. Man that is slick! All for the low cost of a $1500 ENG lens.

Anyway in the end I feel post-production is a tool equally if not more important than the camera itself.

I have no plans elaborating "do normal world needs 4K" any more than this... It is the same as with digital stills. Do people rally need 36mp Nikon D7000? And if I hear one more time somebody quotes Mr. Deakins I will cut my wrists... Big productions HAVE big budgets. They can afford any gear needed for the project. You and me (and most of the folks here), not so much. Being trapped in how 4K is the thing we can not live with out is more a consumer hype than necessity. You had F3 for maybe a year? Now, as you said you "drinked the Koolaid"... Good for you! I hope you found it business wise to make so much investment in such a short time?

In any case, i see too much too often "DPs" own/use RED camera and put crap lenses or use 4K for assignments that is overkill all over (web content, no post production budget, etc.). They shoot RAW, then spend twice as much time color correcting the footage for no pay.... I will not be shooting RAW until I can get PAID for post processing/color correction. At this time, all my clients are not ready or have no idea what RAW is... On the other hand, see our local (Toronto) ads: you can rent RED package for the same $$ as F3 (even less)...

So, no Koolaid on my table! And I will keep F3 until my budget allows another major investment (same as I did with EX1). And what ever comes at that moment, I will get it if needed... Rant end!

 

[Kholi]

Quite content with pseudo large format sensors. Quite shocking actually since I always thought of them as pioneers, followed by Sony, and lastly Canon who was always always last in the game.

I'd be happy with a GH2 Sized Sensor from Panasonic that spits out a solid 1080, DR in the range of 12.5 and recording options. Suppose it's R&D time that's keeping them from entering the fray sooner than later.

 

[morgan_moore]

I'd be happy with a GH2 Sized Sensor from Panasonic that spits out a solid 1080, DR in the range of 12.5 and recording options. Suppose it's R&D time that's keeping them from entering the fray sooner than later.

Id prefer S35 - only because I dont know any nice zooms for the smaller format.

It seems there is a hole for a really intelligent camera for the coroporate shooter (who want the power of raw on occasion)

2.5k raw and pro res, simple functions, like a Scarlet with ND, XLR and a bit less of the fruit-loop accessories

People could argue that the C300 or F3 is that, but personally Id take a file you can really bend in post, even a 1080 one

An AF200 could be just the thing.. or this.

S

 

[starcentral]

I have no plans elaborating "do normal world needs 4K" any more than this... It is the same as with digital stills. Do people rally need 36mp Nikon D7000? And if I hear one more time somebody quotes Mr. Deakins I will cut my wrists... Big productions HAVE big budgets. They can afford any gear needed for the project. You and me (and most of the folks here), not so much. Being trapped in how 4K is the thing we can not live with out is more a consumer hype than necessity. You had F3 for maybe a year? Now, as you said you "drinked the Koolaid"... Good for you! I hope you found it business wise to make so much investment in such a short time?

In any case, i see too much too often "DPs" own/use RED camera and put crap lenses or use 4K for assignments that is overkill all over (web content, no post production budget, etc.). They shoot RAW, then spend twice as much time color correcting the footage for no pay.... I will not be shooting RAW until I can get PAID for post processing/color correction. At this time, all my clients are not ready or have no idea what RAW is... On the other hand, see our local (Toronto) ads: you can rent RED package for the same $$ as F3 (even less)...

So, no Koolaid on my table! And I will keep F3 until my budget allows another major investment (same as I did with EX1). And what ever comes at that moment, I will get it if needed... Rant end!

Yes of all people I quoted, I agree Mr. Deakins was poor choice and over the top... lol I want to cut my wrists too when I hear most opinions from these guys.

I disagree big projects had big budgets, if only that were true. Listen to so many interviews, BTS or DVD commentaries and the stories are all the same. Do more with less, in less time, but deliver only the best. It's reality.

You are right however that most people don't need 4k, hell they don't even need RAW but when its available at such a low price and really since 2006/7 of course there will always be early adopters. Even some of my footage sucks, don't blame the camera, raw, or bit-depth.

Anyway the game I'm trying to get more into (ie. cinema/film) really doesn't recognize the F3 and certainly doesn't recognize HD when every bloody film out there was... (finish my sentence).. 'shot on red'. All the hype and technology changes frankly suck. I even recently started the website shotonf3.com to help get the word out there about the great marvel cam! But hey 4k is here and now not the future anymore whether we like it or not. Even the new GoPro was announced recently as 4k...

I am as frustrated as anyone...

 

[petermullett]

this is developing into a really interesting post......I have to say for that although 4K is something I'd like to be able to have in my personal camera kit it really isn't a big issue right now.
Yes, ( a great posting by StarCentral by the way ), there's many advantages that 4K can offer, especially in post. But mostly for the work I purchased the F3 for and the work I continue to do with it 4K just isn't necessary at all. Anyway, if it's for TV or the web, they can't handle 4K. As Star Central says, right now 4K's big hook is in post, what you can do with that image.
A film I shot this year on S16 and transferred to 4K looked great on TV and on digital theatre projection. Going to 4K from that small neg' size really made a difference, but with the F3's S35 sensor, it's current output, and the usage I have for the camera.....it's just fine, a hell of a lot more than fine in fact.
If I want more in digital for any upcoming jobs I'll rent what I need and skip one F version......

 

[S.Blanchardon]

Consumer 4K delivery? I doubt there will be a Green-Ray or 4K-Ray. So that leaves delivery by our friends like Comcast and Time Warner. They still can't manage 1080. 4K streaming? I'll be in a nursing home or dead by then and won't be able to see it anyway.

There will definitely be 4K Blu-Ray's, they will just stack more layers to fit it on a disc, there are already 100Gb 3 layers BD-R and HDMI is capable of passing 4K. Blu-Ray is probably the last physical medium available before having everything dematerialized though.

4K streaming will be a reality when fiber will hit homes on a much larger scale, if I recall correctly operators made it work in some test cities in US an Japan (a special hi-speed version of it since fiber is already available in some countries)

It's just a matter of time and technical implementation in households.

 

[simonpwood]

DVD is just catching on where I live, and all TV is still SD (I'm talking 4:3 here)! Its a big old world, and vast tracts of it is nowhere near BluRay, never mind 4K.

Anyhow, everyone shoots HD here and has to piss around in post to get it down to SD (for TV or DVD). Internet speeds are still pretty slow so most people are watching internet video streaming content in the lowest setting available.

There are a few REDs floating around; and again for post they have all that hassle to get it down to SD. Once 4K become more affordable you can be sure everyone will jump on the bandwagon irrespective of whether or not its really actually practical to deliver in 4K. Me included.....

 

[starcentral]

Well you guys will probably be surprised to know I don't even subscribe to HD satellite or cable. In fact my 42" plasma doesn't even do HD. It's 8 years old and does a little better than SD.

:O

 

[vanvideo]

That would be a fair asumption. If that photo which looks like an EX3 is real it does make less sense thou. F4/5 if something between the F3/F65 would probably look more like the F65 than the F3 or Ex-series I think. Maybe it fits iin somewere else?

Photo? What photo?