The New F

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Different clients. There's a lot of work that isn't as high end as what you're doing apparently. And certainly if the on camera product is one known for it's color, then it's important to get the shade right. Not all work has those elements stressed. There's a world of profitable work that's done with 3 point lighting kits or less.

I'm not suggesting that a RAW workflow is necessarily more complex, but I'm absolutely sure it takes a more powerful edit machine and that it takes more storage space. I do a lot of "shoot only" work where I turnover footage to a client. Having a camera that's flexible and can shoot anything from RAW 4k to compressed 1080p or 720p would be very practical for me. I shoot whatever the client needs now, not what I'm guessing their workflow may be in five years.
 
Its not really high end - in a fancy way - its just sposed to be accurate :)

Even hotels, whatever want accurate, in fact almost the lower end the job, the more!

Which is different from pop vids and the like which are generally washed with a crazy grade.

S
 
1080p and 4k internal recording is the only thing that would have made me buy such a camera.

Anyone buying the F5 to future-proof themselves for 4k or RAW will likely end up replacing it with the next F model that can record internally anyway.

I seriously don't understand the off-board recording craze. Just a way for manufacturers to double-dip and make you think you've protected your investment.
 
starcentral said:
1080p and 4k internal recording is the only thing that would have made me buy such a camera.

Anyone buying the F5 to future-proof themselves for 4k or RAW will likely end up replacing it with the next F model that can record internally anyway.

I seriously don't understand the off-board recording craze. Just a way for manufacturers to double-dip and make you think you've protected your investment.
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A couple of tweets are suggesting we will be very surprised by what they have coming. The specs posted on reduser don't make me see that. The specs may end up being wrong or not complete. Kholi said Sony is s$%tting on all the manufactures with this new camera. He knows something. I would assume 4k internally is still a possibility. 5 days to go.
 
I'm more interested in ergonomics that recording specs. But the specs that have been teased at this point are perfectly fine with me. If there is an optional paid 4K upgrade path, and other usability improvements, that's even better.

If Sony can deliver all that in a camera that rivals the Alexa in form factor, basic recording rates and anywhere near $20-30K, I'm in.
 
morgan_moore said:
As for video to compressed formats without huge lighting rigs, or just lurking for magic hour (both client expensive) - Im far from convinced
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Have you graded with a really good, compressed file? Like the 10 bit/S-log out of the F3?

RAW is great, but it is only marginally different from a good, 10bit log file. You can pull it all over the place.

Even the 8bit/C-log of the C300 can be graded quite well.
 
On price: I think companies should continue to price according to market, meaning that they aren't going broke just because a small sector of owner operators want everything for very little.

The prices are fair, I believe, for what you get. I did not believe and still do not believe that the c300 and c500 are priced appropriately for what you get.

I'd also imagine today's no money hero, Blackmagic, will not want for the future what they're going through now on their own forums. My guess is that whatever comes next from them they'll have learned their lesson and will stage it around 8-10K buy in to balance out the headache to profits margin.

On form factor: why do companies wait to announce!?
 
Jay Birch said:
Have you graded with a really good, compressed file? Like the 10 bit/S-log out of the F3?

RAW is great, but it is only marginally different from a good, 10bit log file. You can pull it all over the place.

Even the 8bit/C-log of the C300 can be graded quite well.
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IMO both of these versions of log leave something to be desired still.

In either case, color always seems to be punished.

Having been shooting with Blackmagic the past few days (testing) I'm not sure if Red's color science can match the fidelity...
 
Viddovation said:
People keep comparing this upcoming camera to BMC and Scarlet pricing, but neither of those cameras offer high resolution high speed solutions. This is a different class of camera, and it's not part of the 3k for $3k paradigm.
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Someone should take the market by the balls and sony could easily, but they probably won't. No one expects this camera to be bmc pricing, and everyone seems to think 3000 is the same as 10000 or 12000. There are huge differences between those numbers for a vast majority of owner/operators. Like it or not the two cameras that crush the f3 sales are scarlet and c300. Doesn't matter what other market you are going after. That is the market that is hurting sony's sales. So beat them on specs and price. Plain and simple. Any other practice is foolish and will be treated as such. Don't expect a ton of new Sony clients if this camera is 20 grand. I know I and many colleagues who make their living completely off of owning and operating and being a cinematographer won't join the Sony crowd if that is the case. Notice how every person saying 20 grand and I'm in already owns an f3 in this thread? Sony doesn't need the same clients to get out of bankruptcy and gain more market share from their competitors, they need new clients, and the only way to get new clients is to change your thinking. If they truly want to s**t on everyone's heads as Kholi states then they should. 20 grand isn't doing that no matter the specs, because the reality is that a vast majority of potential new clients aren't willing to pay such numbers. Plain and simple.

I'm hoping for a surprise, expecting the same old corporate thinking.
 
Interesting Kholi! Post some smudges.

Raw is also what I know. (DNG) and have worked with for many years, also if you want to match stills and motion, I think it will be no effort (irelevant to 90% I know)

S
 
Kholi said:
IMO both of these versions of log leave something to be desired still.

In either case, color always seems to be punished.

Having been shooting with Blackmagic the past few days (testing) I'm not sure if Red's color science can match the fidelity...
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Red's "color science" has serious issues. Although I think it's more just that their sensor's color filters suck so it's totally fixable in Dragon, if they made it a priority (not sure if they did or didn't).

So yeah, I'd damn well hope Blackmagic does better!

The only sad part is that F65's colors are looking great in daylight but not so hot in other lighting conditions in the test films I've seen so far. So that's my main worry for this new F.

The crazy thing is that DSLR sensors in still mode can have lovely color. My dream is that Sony says:
"Hey guys... actually for the NewF, we just took the sensor out of Canon's 1D C and put it in a real camera with 4K 60fps RAW output, genlock for 3D and a nice compact body. And here's some beer!"

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Viddovation said:
Until the day a professional video camera costs $5.00 and can make the operator a sandwich, there are going to be complaints.
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This is where I think video people are 'wrong' - in stills there was a new thing every year for a few years, each was lacking, restricted, missing something, hobbled, and horrendous depreciation to boot.

Then around 2008 stuff came out - Nikon D3 and probably a Canon - that just worked, while the dentists may have continued upgrading most of the pros have not!

I do a stack of still assignment with my 'ancient' 2008 D3, professionally, and it makes me smile every time I pick it up - because it works

Were those cameras cheap ? - not very - are they value? in cost per year .. very good value
S

History of nikon stills cams..
Nikon D1 - too low res for magazines, dodgy chip size
Nikon D2 - rough ISO and highlight, low res, dodgy chip size
Kodak SLRn - magazine resolution, IR polution Moiree, ISO noise
Nikon D3 - perfection
Nikon D4 - who cares .. only a dentist?


History of affordable cine chip video
5d - 30p no sound
7d - moire, no sound
FS100 - no ND thin codec
FS700 - close
Fxx ??

Fifth time lucky?
 
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bruceallen said:
The crazy thing is that DSLR sensors in still mode can have lovely color.
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The Nikon D800 sensor is made by Sony, but the color balance is Nikon.

Color balancing RAW bayer sensors is more art than science. Best to just leave it RAW and let the coloristas have at it.

Cheers.
 
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