Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
100% agreed. I have no clue why such fussing for nothing. RED is the only party to extract the best from all this buzz :thumbsup:
The new camera body from RED: Weapon
- Thread starter Gillvane
- Start date
You call that a knife. That's not a knife. This is a knife (or a weapon).
http://www.newsshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/DSC00221.jpg
http://www.newsshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/DSC00221.jpg
I think I should rephrase what I said. Not being a native english speaker sometimes brings these issues. What I meant is that Red allows me to keep upgrading to the latest technology instead of paying full price for a camera. We are talking about the "top end" cinema cameras here: Red is Competing with Arri, the Sony F 65 here, not with the AF100, even C300 and other compressed 8bit camera systems. And I forgot to mention I own the Epic for 3 years now. Non M, just X.
Yes, if I had a Panasonic I could sell mine and buy the new model. But how much depreciation would my Panasonic have with the announcement of a new model? Lets take Sony for Example. I can see here many DVXUSERs got excellent deals on a Top of the Line cinema camera- the Sony F35, a camera that, when launched, cost forward to 100 000 USD. This depreciation happened in a couple of years. The Epic stayed on its price point, with the occasional raise and then, with Dragon, slight decrease in price. But it stayed and kept its value.
People shooting high end commercials and Films over here either go Alexa or Red. Sony has a small share with the F65, but much smaller than these 2. There is a reason for this. To be fair, at the top end of the "camera food chain", the difference between them interns of picture quality is negligible, and each one currently has its advantages and disadvantages. But here's the catch: Red is "affordable". And it allows you, for normally 9000 USD or less, keep upgrading, staying on the cutting edge of their ecosystem and developments. This in Sony terms would not be possible, for example. Just look at those that invested 100 000 USD on the F35. For how much could they sell their cameras to get the F65? How much money would they lose? Technology depreciates, and Red's program, and I talk as a costumer, for me is much, much more appealing then the other way around. One has to see also if there's a market for such cameras where they are. For me getting the F55 here, for example, if I was to resell it, it would be very difficult. Luckily Red cameras sell relatively well on the second hand market if I need it.
Yes, one could argue that I "don't need" to upgrade. And, true, I didn't really "need" to upgrade to Dragon. The MX sensor, 5K, fast frame rates and 800 clean ISO is good enough for 4K delivery and great visuals that have been proven on the big screen. Clients - on the TVC marketplace and Broadcast recognise this. That's something that will not get obsolete anytime soon, at least in the next 4 or 5 years. But I did upgrade, after 3 years of Epic MX ownership, because the new sensor allowed me to get clean 1280 ISO and usable 1600 ISO with the LLO OLPF. Its also much better in color rendition, higher bit rate processing, relatively bigger sensor, and, as both a Stills and Motion camera, the Dragon really achieves true convergence. Its a much better camera than my MX camera. And no other camera bellow or above its price point can do half the things it does, and its as versatile at its price point. And this new camera, shooting 6K and with 14Bit (if I'm not mistaken here) color processing cost me 9500 USD. And it works with my accessories, batteries, monitors, etc.
Going RED, i repeat, was one of the best investments I've ever made. In terms of my career, and to pitch to clients, you can be sure that the RED name has prestige and opened doors for me. Bellow is a TV Commercial that was shown worldwide shot with the MX Epic, which I directed and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29scBiG9BQw
We all make our choices, where we position ourselves, what we want to do. There are different markets, different applications, different content that can be used and done with other cameras. There are some cameras better than Red cameras for specific type of work. But as an owner/operator, as a small company, as an independent filmmaker, purchasing a Red camera was the natural progression from my good old days starting from Sony TRV 900 (back in 1998), going through Panasonic DVX100, HVX200 (which I shot my first commercials and my very first Festival accepted short), to my 5D- and I agree, the 5D was a true game changer: it allowed me and my productions to achieve a look and cinematography that the previous 1/3 CCD cameras could not, only with light hungry 35mm adapters with lots of issues. However, it was highly compressed, full of artefacts and needed lots of workarounds to achieve a "competitive" high end picture, at least for Top Brioadcast and Big screen content. The Red had the High Frame Rates of the HVX200, Varicam and more, the resolution of Film, the Sensor size of S35, bit depth and color equivalent of 4:4:4 from Redcode compression, and the versatility and form factor of a DSLR. It was the perfect upgrade. And had the brand recognition and approval from the market.
As for the Weapon name, I agree, not a good choice. But having the option to not have it engraved is enough for me. As a happy costumer and for the quality of their products and costumer care , that doesn't bother me at all.
That was the path I chose obviously. I don't exclusively shoot Red. We purchased a C300 for Run and Gun and absolute low light situations, we own a couple of 1DX for "stealth", and of course we use Drones with Gopro 4's. Different tools for different jobs. But I'll confess this: I still keep my Sony TRV900 and my HVX200 (which to this day still produces stunning pictures) for emotional reasons. I am a creative, and yes, often I create a bond with the "brush" I use on my work. In a place without possibility for rentals, I have to purchase my own gear, and cherish it. They still work perfectly fine. The Dragon, in one or two years, depending on the economical side of equation, will become a WPN. But would love to keep it as is just on the emotional side, like the other 2 keepers. Its another camera that represents another stepping stone in my personal career. However 30K or more for a new one is just insane for keeping it for emotional reasons. (And yes, i confess, I also still keep my 5D Mark II
)
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I think I should rephrase what I said. Not being a native english speaker sometimes brings these issues. What I meant is that Red allows me to keep upgrading to the latest technology instead of paying full price for a camera. We are talking about the "top end" cinema cameras here: Red is Competing with Arri, the Sony F 65 here, not with the AF100, even C300 and other compressed 8bit camera systems. And I forgot to mention I own the Epic for 3 years now. Non M, just X.
Yes, if I had a Panasonic I could sell mine and buy the new model. But how much depreciation would my Panasonic have with the announcement of a new model? Lets take Sony for Example. I can see here many DVXUSERs got excellent deals on a Top of the Line cinema camera- the Sony F35, a camera that, when launched, cost forward to 100 000 USD. This depreciation happened in a couple of years. The Epic stayed on its price point, with the occasional raise and then, with Dragon, slight decrease in price. But it stayed and kept its value.
People shooting high end commercials and Films over here either go Alexa or Red. Sony has a small share with the F65, but much smaller than these 2. There is a reason for this. To be fair, at the top end of the "camera food chain", the difference between them interns of picture quality is negligible, and each one currently has its advantages and disadvantages. But here's the catch: Red is "affordable". And it allows you, for normally 9000 USD or less, keep upgrading, staying on the cutting edge of their ecosystem and developments. This in Sony terms would not be possible, for example. Just look at those that invested 100 000 USD on the F35. For how much could they sell their cameras to get the F65? How much money would they lose? Technology depreciates, and Red's program, and I talk as a costumer, for me is much, much more appealing then the other way around. One has to see also if there's a market for such cameras where they are. For me getting the F55 here, for example, if I was to resell it, it would be very difficult. Luckily Red cameras sell relatively well on the second hand market if I need it.
Yes, one could argue that I "don't need" to upgrade. And, true, I didn't really "need" to upgrade to Dragon. The MX sensor, 5K, fast frame rates and 800 clean ISO is good enough for 4K delivery and great visuals that have been proven on the big screen. Clients - on the TVC marketplace and Broadcast recognise this. That's something that will not get obsolete anytime soon, at least in the next 4 or 5 years. But I did upgrade, after 3 years of Epic MX ownership, because the new sensor allowed me to get clean 1280 ISO and usable 1600 ISO with the LLO OLPF. Its also much better in color rendition, higher bit rate processing, relatively bigger sensor, and, as both a Stills and Motion camera, the Dragon really achieves true convergence. Its a much better camera than my MX camera. And no other camera bellow or above its price point can do half the things it does, and its as versatile at its price point. And this new camera, shooting 6K and with 14Bit (if I'm not mistaken here) color processing cost me 9500 USD. And it works with my accessories, batteries, monitors, etc.
Going RED, i repeat, was one of the best investments I've ever made. In terms of my career, and to pitch to clients, you can be sure that the RED name has prestige and opened doors for me. Bellow is a TV Commercial that was shown worldwide shot with the MX Epic, which I directed and shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29scBiG9BQw
We all make our choices, where we position ourselves, what we want to do. There are different markets, different applications, different content that can be used and done with other cameras. There are some cameras better than Red cameras for specific type of work. But as an owner/operator, as a small company, as an independent filmmaker, purchasing a Red camera was the natural progression from my good old days starting from Sony TRV 900 (back in 1998), going through Panasonic DVX100, HVX200 (which I shot my first commercials and my very first Festival accepted short), to my 5D- and I agree, the 5D was a true game changer: it allowed me and my productions to achieve a look and cinematography that the previous 1/3 CCD cameras could not, only with light hungry 35mm adapters with lots of issues. However, it was highly compressed, full of artefacts and needed lots of workarounds to achieve a "competitive" high end picture, at least for Top Brioadcast and Big screen content. The Red had the High Frame Rates of the HVX200, Varicam and more, the resolution of Film, the Sensor size of S35, bit depth and color equivalent of 4:4:4 from Redcode compression, and the versatility and form factor of a DSLR. It was the perfect upgrade. And had the brand recognition and approval from the market.
As for the Weapon name, I agree, not a good choice. But having the option to not have it engraved is enough for me. As a happy costumer and for the quality of their products and costumer care , that doesn't bother me at all.
That was the path I chose obviously. I don't exclusively shoot Red. We purchased a C300 for Run and Gun and absolute low light situations, we own a couple of 1DX for "stealth", and of course we use Drones with Gopro 4's. Different tools for different jobs. But I'll confess this: I still keep my Sony TRV900 and my HVX200 (which to this day still produces stunning pictures) for emotional reasons. I am a creative, and yes, often I create a bond with the "brush" I use on my work. In a place without possibility for rentals, I have to purchase my own gear, and cherish it. They still work perfectly fine. The Dragon, in one or two years, depending on the economical side of equation, will become a WPN. But would love to keep it as is just on the emotional side, like the other 2 keepers. Its another camera that represents another stepping stone in my personal career. However 30K or more for a new one is just insane for keeping it for emotional reasons. (And yes, i confess, I also still keep my 5D Mark II
I hqve qn F3, which can now been found on the market for about $3K. It still produces an incredible picture, skin tones are excellent and I personally defie any RED camera to obtain a better image with regards to faces once they are scaled down to full HD, and lets face it, almost everything still is. I have worked with RED Dragon on numerous occasions and I still see something a little bit wooden in the skin tones by comparison in many situation so resolution is not everything. "Future proof", my arse. In ten years we will all laugh at that phrase. More marketing pap. RED once talked about 3k for $3K. Remember that? Guess they decided everyone needed to pay $40K to get in with all the needed accessories, and $9K every 18 months to stay relevant. In the age of disposable cameras and a darn good camera approaching in specs for less than the cost of the RED upgrade cycle, that is absolutely crazy.
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Umm, you don't have to do any upgrades, seems funny that "haters" get mad at red for giving their customers OPTIONS, by the way, how many cameras have Sony released since the f3? And I'm sorry, no the F3 does not look like this:
https://vimeo.com/120537211
cheers!
https://vimeo.com/120537211
cheers!
Paul schefz
Well-known member
that looks beautiful! but IMO that is mostly because the person behind the camera very obviously knows what they are doing, the lenses are dreamy and the story and styling is great....this could have been shot with red, sony or alexa....
i still don't like what dragon does to (for example) the neck areas under the hair...
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
I'm foolishly stepping into this thread, but what the heck.
That last vimeo link looks great! Shot on Red Dragon and Cookes. That's a combination that Sony F3 does not have the specs to compete with. You could put Cookes on an F3, but if the same camera operator were to bring out the best of both cameras, well, we'd find that the F3 (albeit being a superb camera) does not have the specs to match the highest end of a dragon camera. I know people talk about Red colorimetry not doing well on skin tones, but the example above looks great. I'd say just use what you like/can afford.
With that said, if the Red model of upgrading modular systems does not seem logical to you in terms of ROI, then don't do it. And if it does, do it. If you're talking about cameras in the 8K range, yes, it's cheaper to sell for 3-5K and purchase a whole new body. But if you're shooting on equipment that's in the $50-$80K, I can see how a 9K upgrade can seem profitable. I haven't ever needed to do the math on this, but I suspect it's favorable.
Im not operating at the highest levels of Weapon or F65 or Alexa. At that stage, very few people are actually owning those cameras (although more people are owning Dragons).
It it seems a bit pointless to go back and fourth about what's best and what's worst when there are too many variables to consider, making such statements nothing more than generalizations/totalizations.
Red Weapon: in my opinion, terrible name. Whatever. NEX FS700R is also a terrible name, in my opinion. Plus, plenty of guns have sexy names. The whole name thing is just rhetorical. It's ok to have an opinion about it. If you hate it, hey, I'm in agreement with you. But that won't keep me from looking at this product objectively and assessing how and when it may or may not be the optimal tool for a given shooting scenario. Now, can I see people liking that name? Yes!
That last vimeo link looks great! Shot on Red Dragon and Cookes. That's a combination that Sony F3 does not have the specs to compete with. You could put Cookes on an F3, but if the same camera operator were to bring out the best of both cameras, well, we'd find that the F3 (albeit being a superb camera) does not have the specs to match the highest end of a dragon camera. I know people talk about Red colorimetry not doing well on skin tones, but the example above looks great. I'd say just use what you like/can afford.
With that said, if the Red model of upgrading modular systems does not seem logical to you in terms of ROI, then don't do it. And if it does, do it. If you're talking about cameras in the 8K range, yes, it's cheaper to sell for 3-5K and purchase a whole new body. But if you're shooting on equipment that's in the $50-$80K, I can see how a 9K upgrade can seem profitable. I haven't ever needed to do the math on this, but I suspect it's favorable.
Im not operating at the highest levels of Weapon or F65 or Alexa. At that stage, very few people are actually owning those cameras (although more people are owning Dragons).
It it seems a bit pointless to go back and fourth about what's best and what's worst when there are too many variables to consider, making such statements nothing more than generalizations/totalizations.
Red Weapon: in my opinion, terrible name. Whatever. NEX FS700R is also a terrible name, in my opinion. Plus, plenty of guns have sexy names. The whole name thing is just rhetorical. It's ok to have an opinion about it. If you hate it, hey, I'm in agreement with you. But that won't keep me from looking at this product objectively and assessing how and when it may or may not be the optimal tool for a given shooting scenario. Now, can I see people liking that name? Yes!