The Hack. A reality check.

M

mpgxsvcd

Veteran
First off I would like to thank everyone who has worked on the hack. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
However, I must say that I think most people’s expectations for the hack are little misguided. Remember this is a “HACK” after all. Basically we are saying that we think we can program the cameras better than Panasonic can.

Panasonic has left out some of these features for a reason. If you bought a camera from them and the playback screen froze or it would record only some of the time you would be upset and ask for a refund. So you shouldn’t expect firmware that pushes the camera’s limits and was installed by some random person to work even some of the time.

Basically, I would like to give everyone a reality check and ask you to remember that there are some really smart people working on this but this “HACK” is not for everyone right now.

If you really want a specific feature or specific camera to be worked on then vote with your dollars. If you are having trouble installing the patch, getting the settings to work, or fixing your broken camera after you incorrectly installed the software then maybe it is time you stepped back and just wait patiently.

You can Donate at the link below
http://www.gh1-hack.info/

The more you donate the faster everything will get tested and the faster everyone will get a solution that even Panasonic would be ok with implementing. There are still several cameras that they don’t have access to and your donations will help get them those cameras. This kind of development takes many many man hours of work but your donations can help speed up the process.

In the meantime, if you are really stuck then look at the links below. If that still doesn’t help then donate at least $10 to the cause at the link below and I will do my best to help you out. Just post a reply here and I will do my best to respond to it. That is the least I can do to thank the other people who are working on this.

Instructions for beginners
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=212263

Video demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00SHcoobH1A

Release Notes for HACK
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=206788

Some stable settings for HACK
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213486
 
May I?

mpgxsvcd said:
First off I would like to thank everyone who has worked on the hack. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
However, I must say that I think most people’s expectations for the hack are little misguided. Remember this is a “HACK” after all. Basically we are saying that we think we can program the cameras better than Panasonic can.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! I think that's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt many times over.

Panasonic has left out some of these features for a reason.
Click to expand...

Yeah, customer support budgeting. They are dealing with over a million users. The average IQ of those million+ users? Less than 90. This is an undisputed statistic AFAIK. So some guy named Arnold Snodgrass with an IQ of 82 is going to try recording hi bit rate HD on his 512 MB SD card (Not SDHC!) and then return the camera when it doesn't work. Or maybe he's an IQ of 90 and will send it in for a warrantee repair? Either way Panasonic lost money - and there's a buttload more like him. They (Panasonic) have to create a dummy-proof system if they want to sell it to the most people possible. Thus, dummy-proof (crippled) settings!

The un-crippling if you will is only for people smart enough to figure out the basics... Like required card type, settings, and etc.

If you bought a camera from them and the playback screen froze or it would record only some of the time you would be upset and ask for a refund.
Click to expand...

Instead of getting a better SDHC card that works - for example? A case in point I believe.

So you shouldn’t expect firmware that pushes the camera’s limits and was installed by some random person to work even some of the time.
Click to expand...

Of course we can. I have, others have, and our expectations were met - and beyond.

Basically, I would like to give everyone a reality check and ask you to remember that there are some really smart people working on this but this “HACK” is not for everyone right now.

If you really want a specific feature or specific camera to be worked on then vote with your dollars. If you are having trouble installing the patch, getting the settings to work, or fixing your broken camera after you incorrectly installed the software then maybe it is time you stepped back and just wait patiently.
Click to expand...

Why the "HACK" in all caps all over the place? How many cameras have been broken by this custom modified firmware you enjoy calling a hack in all caps? I haven't read of even one yet - but I may have just missed it or something. Any links?

Thanks.
 
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Tesselator said:
Why the "HACK" in all caps all over the place? How many cameras have been broken by this custom modified firmware you enjoy calling a hack is all caps? I haven't read of even one yet - but I may have just missed it or something. Any links?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't want to name names because those are actually the people I am trying to help understand that this is a "HACK" and not just a function of the camera. However, there are several cases where people have incorrectly set their cameras to languages they don't know how to read. There are also people who have applied the patch with settings that don't work for them and now they are having trouble getting the firmware to install.

Those are the people I am trying to help. Those people are interested in getting the results others have acheived but they simply lack the computer experience to understand how to install and troubleshoot this software. I don't suspect you fall into that category.

I was hoping that those people would read this and understand that they shouldn't expect this to be a perfect solution. However, there are people willing to help them if they are willing to donate to the cause as well.
 
Tesselator said:
Why the "HACK" in all caps all over the place? How many cameras have been broken by this custom modified firmware you enjoy calling a hack in all caps? I haven't read of even one yet - but I may have just missed it or something. Any links?
Click to expand...

"Hack" does not imply break.

In English "Hack something together" means to build / make something with very little, or without all the "correct" tools & parts necessary.

"Hackers" build & create with what they have available to them. They create something out of nothing and make things do more and things they where never intended to do.

Just as "Computer Hackers" build, & create by expanding the capabilities of technology and information. (Unlike "Crackers" that break open stuff, often with the intention of Hacking something from there.)

- Mikko
 
mpgxsvcd said:
I don't want to name names because those are actually the people I am trying to help understand that this is a "HACK" and not just a function of the camera. However, there are several cases where people have incorrectly set their cameras to languages they don't know how to read. There are also people who have applied the patch with settings that don't work for them and now they are having trouble getting the firmware to install.

Those are the people I am trying to help.
Click to expand...

OK, I understand you! ;)
 
mpgxsvcd said:
I was hoping that those people would read this and understand that they shouldn't expect this to be a perfect solution. However, there are people willing to help them if they are willing to donate to the cause as well.
Click to expand...


This is one of my main concerns too, the average joe seeing a nice vimeo clip and wanting the same so he hacks it without full understanding and fudges it up then can't fix it then tries to get panasoic to fix it.
 
I don't have a GH1, and am not, at this point looking to pick up one and try this firmware hack. I am excited for it, and am keeping up on it out of interest about the development of the video DSLRs in general.

However, insulting the intelligence, literally, of individuals who may be having issues with the hack is, IMHO, bullsh*t, and not in keeping with the spirit of the DVXUSER that I know. Hacking the firmware of a camera is a relatively complicated procedure and if a person is having problems with it does not mean that they are deficient in any way.
 
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Great initial post (reality check and useful links).
I'm new to video, although I've owned digital stills cameras and work with computers in my music career.
Kind of sad that people who don't 'get' the hack are labeled 'dummies' or low iq individuals.
To be honest it's all techno babble to me at the moment.
I wouldn't dream of adjusting my firmware with a 3rd party hack, as it took me half an hour of head scratching to update to the latest official version just after I bought the camera.
There's a steep learning curve with any new technology.
It's all much easier to understand if you have been interested in digital for years, and keep up with the latest in software and computing.
FWIW, I love the new features and capabilities made available by Tester 13.
Great work! Al power to him and the others involved.
I wont be hacking my GH-1 until I know I can handle the process though and I don't think I'm a dummy with a low IQ either.
 
David G. Smith said:
I don't have a GH1, and am not, at this point looking to pick up one and try this firmware hack. I am excited for it, and am keeping up on it out of interest about the development of the video DSLRs in general.

However, insulting the intelligence, literally, of individuals who may be having issues with the hack is, IMHO, bulls*t, and not in keeping with the spirit of the DVXUSER that I know. Hacking the firmware of a camera is a relatively complicated procedure and if a person is having problems with it does not mean that they are deficient in any way.
Click to expand...

Thats the reason I got a GH1. I wanted an HD camera, decent size sensor, and a decent codec at a decent price. For $1k, I said screw it, and took the dive. I own a DVX100B, and have done some past few projects on the HPX170 and HVX. Tuesday I'll be working with the 170 and a 3700. I kinda said to myself, "what can I really expect from this thing?" And you know what, the hacked footage looks just as good if not better than the stuff we shot. For $1k bucks and an internet hack, it's totally worth it.
 
Joe Calabrese said:
Thats the reason I got a GH1. I wanted an HD camera, decent size sensor, and a decent codec at a decent price. For $1k, I said screw it, and took the dive. I own a DVX100B, and have done some past few projects on the HPX170 and HVX. Tuesday I'll be working with the 170 and a 3700. I kinda said to myself, "what can I really expect from this thing?" And you know what, the hacked footage looks just as good if not better than the stuff we shot. For $1k bucks and an internet hack, it's totally worth it.
Click to expand...

You know Joe, I don't doubt it at all. It is just not for me at this time, and besides, that is not why I posted on this thread. DVXUSER is a forum that accepts users of all experience levels, and does not insult people for asking any question, no matter how Noob it may be. I just found it very insulting that others my think that individuals having issues with a firmware hack may not be of a high enough intelligence. That is not DVXUSER, IMHO.
 
Joe Calabrese said:
I own a DVX100B, and have done some past few projects on the HPX170 and HVX (...) And you know what, the hacked footage looks just as good if not better than the stuff we shot.
Click to expand...
Well, granted the only clue I have on the tools with you've shot your stuff, I'd say you're comparing apples to oranges :-)


EDIT -- OK, I read now... «Tuesday I'll be working with (...) and a 3700»
Now I got your quote in 100% ;-)
 
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David G. Smith said:
You know Joe, I don't doubt it at all. It is just not for me at this time, and besides, that is not why I posted on this thread. DVXUSER is a forum that accepts users of all experience levels, and does not insult people for asking any question, no matter how Noob it may be. I just found it very insulting that others my think that individuals having issues with a firmware hack may not be of a high enough intelligence. That is not DVXUSER, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. The camera suited my needs and so I bought it (cheap, and HD). It probably isnt suited for everyone's needs.

And it took me all afternoon to try to FIND the firmware to load into Ptool, then another hour to try to load it on the camera. But thanks to the simple step by step instruction in the flash from Panasonic's website, I got it. :laugh:
 
I'd go along with the suggestion that if you don't feel comfortable with using PTool, don't do it. But I've said elsewhere already that IMHO if you can get your head around other than basic use of NLE software, PTool shouldn't trouble you too much.

How to get more confident in using it? Well, check out the first post or two of the topics here which seem to provide advice to new users (check their titles). Then bear in mind that you can use it to your heart's content on your computer with no risk to anything. Nothing actually changes until you actually press the "Yes" option in the GH1 when it asks if you want to update. So look at the prompts for each question within the PTool interface. Avoid anything that doesn't say "working" against it, to begin with. Test the outcome of your settings really thoroughly (once you've actually updated the firmware in-camera).

But I suspect in a few weeks' time a more user-friendly version of PTool will become available, with a well-written help file (written by someone who knows the subject in depth), with all options set out in logical order, with sanity checks (ie, it won't let you put in a combination of settings which will be a really bad idea), with the means to save and recall patch setups for easy tweaking (and to help remember what you set), and perhaps it will come with such setups for typical scenarios already provided - eg "highest quality settings for very fast large cards" or "settings likely to work for class 6 cards under all circumstances" etc etc.

The reality that must be checked is that it's very early days yet and this is beta software intended for experienced users.
 
PTool is already stupid simple. I just tried it finally with the newest version today. Totally ignert-proof.

Ozpeter, wasn't it you that posted results in the database with the Sandisk Ultra II Class 4 cards? I read that and decided to take the plunge, since I have a few days to jack with the firmware before my next paid gig, at which time I'll revert to factory. So far, my Sandisk/Ultra/Class 4 are doing well with home videos at 2x factory bit rate/native 24p!

As far as the original post being OT, I don't think so. There's already a thousand people looking for technical support on the firmware HACK. HACK. One poor bastard has already posted his troubles after buying a GH1 that someone eBayed after hacking it in the early stages! Now there's going to be a bunch of GH1's in the future with hacked firmware, and 2nd hand users contacting Panasonic wondering what the heck is up with their camera. LOL

My only suggestion, no insult intended, is if you're not prepared to lose the footage you're shooting forever, then don't go jacking around with the firmware.

I'm going to shoot a short commercial for free with my hacked GH1 next week, but it goes back to factory before my next wedding. :)
 
Yeah, I too had no insult intended. Sorry dave took it that way. It's a well known fact about average IQs of various populations. And the kind of ingenuity and logic that's required to implement and troubleshoot something like PTool requires a somewhat analytical mind which is directly reflected by IQ. Don't play to the stigma here. It's not a put-down to have a low IQ. It's a measurement, like height or visual acuity. And like those measurements it does NOT offer a full picture. There are many many kinds or aspects of intelligence including SIQ, CIQ, and etc. that together form a larger picture. IQ/LIQ is only one and nothing to be defensive about.
 
mikkowilson said:
"Hack" does not imply break.

In English "Hack something together" means to build / make something with very little, or without all the "correct" tools & parts necessary.

"Hackers" build & create with what they have available to them. They create something out of nothing and make things do more and things they where never intended to do.

Just as "Computer Hackers" build, & create by expanding the capabilities of technology and information. (Unlike "Crackers" that break open stuff, often with the intention of Hacking something from there.)

- Mikko
Click to expand...

Good point. By his usage I guessed that he might be using the term to imply inadequacy. Like a writer or journalist producing dull, unoriginal work is sometimes referred to as a hack, or an incompetent person in a professional position also, etc. But I understood better (I think) after his reply. :)
 
My li rant
I think some are expecting the image (from some threads ive been reading here) on avchd to be 110% perfect....analysing with a fine toothcomb "look I see a bit of mud in the far right pixel...the frames are pulsating...I pause it and I can see a gop drop"...with that some need perspective!
Has mud been greatly reduced? yes
Has picture been improved? Yes
Some are still unsatisfied! sighhhhh

ahem sorry!
 
Your making a big assumption that large manufacturers know everything

Your making a big assumption that large manufacturers know everything

Mind you there are some really smart people out there that work for companies. This doesn't imply that if they built it, they know everything and make limits that must appeal to a wide audience to sell cameras. Keep in mind that folks on the inside of companies are people also and they have requirements and limited time to develop and test them and must move onto other projects. If internal developers are funded to continue to improve a product great, this is what I want. I don't want a hack, I want Panasonic to already be improving and providing me the features of the "hack" just like we see regular Playstation 3 updates that bring new features, enhancements, or fixes. The truth is product developers have already moved on and other groups of people are handling product defects which result in firmware fixes.

For example, I "hacked" my Sharp LCD by being the first to access a hidden secondary extended firmware menu which allowed me to turn off some problematic features that were not available in the normal settings of the LCD or the primary firmware. I've"hacked" my old cell phone to add new capabilities. I've NOT hacked my iPhone because I want reliability and don't need the non-approved applications.

If the "hack" is relatively safe, tested by many, continues to improve by people who know what their doing more than you who can only comment on it then you have two choices, stand by and watch and never install any of these features you may or may not need, or if there is something you need, appeal to Panasonic to give you these features which I can bet you, they will not give you an ounce of time unless its a product defect or met with hoping its in the next version or a different product.

In my view, this is not a "hack" but a reverse engineering and tweaking of settings that are resident within the program in the clear. There was no program "crack" which opened the door to these settings, they are in the open and where reverse engineering is allowed.

mpgxsvcd said:
First off I would like to thank everyone who has worked on the hack. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
However, I must say that I think most people’s expectations for the hack are little misguided. Remember this is a “HACK” after all. Basically we are saying that we think we can program the cameras better than Panasonic can.

Panasonic has left out some of these features for a reason. If you bought a camera from them and the playback screen froze or it would record only some of the time you would be upset and ask for a refund. So you shouldn’t expect firmware that pushes the camera’s limits and was installed by some random person to work even some of the time.

Basically, I would like to give everyone a reality check and ask you to remember that there are some really smart people working on this but this “HACK” is not for everyone right now.

If you really want a specific feature or specific camera to be worked on then vote with your dollars. If you are having trouble installing the patch, getting the settings to work, or fixing your broken camera after you incorrectly installed the software then maybe it is time you stepped back and just wait patiently.

You can Donate at the link below
http://www.gh1-hack.info/

The more you donate the faster everything will get tested and the faster everyone will get a solution that even Panasonic would be ok with implementing. There are still several cameras that they don’t have access to and your donations will help get them those cameras. This kind of development takes many many man hours of work but your donations can help speed up the process.

In the meantime, if you are really stuck then look at the links below. If that still doesn’t help then donate at least $10 to the cause at the link below and I will do my best to help you out. Just post a reply here and I will do my best to respond to it. That is the least I can do to thank the other people who are working on this.

Instructions for beginners
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=212263

Video demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00SHcoobH1A

Release Notes for HACK
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=206788

Some stable settings for HACK
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213486
Click to expand...
 
I originally intended this thread to be a place for people who are stuck and need help installing the firmware or undoing the firmware to come to. However, I think the thread has definitely morphed into something else.

As far as whether it is a hack or not. I believe it is a hack. That is not a negative thing. It is just simply that we are reverse engineering the software and in some cases pushing the product to its limits.

I originally called it a “HACK” because I wanted some of the users who were stuck with broken cameras to understand that this is not a supported feature of the device. I believe some people thought they could just install this and magically everything would work perfectly. That isn’t necessarily the case.
 
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