The Great Camera Shootout 2010

dcloud said:
they wouldnt be as "shocked" if they only get their heads out of their a$$es
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I think it's obvious that's exactly what they've been doing. The film community has been talking, and Canon has been listening very intently as evidenced by their actions (firmware upgrades). I'm sure there's a dedicated cine camera in the works. In the mean time, it appears they are bending over backwards to do what they can to service the community which of course only serves their bottom line.

I don't mean to make them sound like Mother Teresa. Though, with the money they're saving starving indie film makers on having to buy into Red, Canon is putting food in their stomachs. Damn, they are mother Teresa. :-)
 
Ian-T said:
...and Canon being shocked with all the responses behind these cameras...there will be something much better in store for future DSLRs.
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+1

I honestly didn't expect Canon to listen and respond that much and quick to us video DSLR guys. Take the T2i, it's nothing but incredible what you get for that price. Who would have imagined this 2 years ago and what will there be 2 years from now? I completely changed my mind about Canon and hope the other companies will adapt to their pace.
 
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f64manray said:
I think it's obvious that's exactly what they've been doing. The film community has been talking, and Canon has been listening very intently as evidenced by their actions (firmware upgrades). I'm sure there's a dedicated cine camera in the works. In the mean time, it appears they are bending over backwards to do what they can to service the community which of course only serves their bottom line.

I don't mean to make them sound like Mother Teresa. Though, with the money they're saving starving indie film makers on having to buy into Red, Canon is putting food in their stomachs. Damn, they are mother Teresa. :-)
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that day may come or it may not but their major target are still photographers. having a large sensor aps-c dedicated video cam would be a bit far fetched since itll be a smaller market.

however i am expecing canon to do better qualities on video on their next dlsrs.. i hope.
 
chrismagicc said:
I don't want to cause conflict or anything but i just found these two GH-1 shorts on vimeo and they blew me the #$@^ away! download the full HD video to see the astonishing quality!

http://vimeo.com/10512682

http://vimeo.com/9796533
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Footage looks great, the GH1, T2i, etc. are all great cameras. Knowing how to properly light + expose and the best lenses for the jobs brings amazing work. That footage and especially the directors work looks amazing.

I own a T2i and love it, but I also know there is a lot of great footage being shot on other dslrs as well. Thanks for the post, those clips look great!
 
dcloud said:
that day may come or it may not but their major target are still photographers. having a large sensor aps-c dedicated video cam would be a bit far fetched since itll be a smaller market.

however i am expecing canon to do better qualities on video on their next dlsrs.. i hope.
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"having a large sensor aps-c dedicated video cam would be a bit far fetched since itll be a smaller market."


This statement really brings to mind the whole home recording revolution. The same could have been said about about producing affordable large diaphram condensor microphones back in the mid 1990's. Who's going to buy them? the market is just to small. Roland released the VS880 for $2,500 which I believe was really the first home DAW. It turned out there were untold thousands of musicians waiting to record high quality audio at home. Large diaphram condensor mics came down from well over $2,000 to initially the $700 mark with the AT4050 and now below that in the $199 territory. before that, manufactureres really assumed only big studios were the customers for their product. Kind of like when IBM said "Home computers? who would want a computer in their home?" and stayed with their big mainframe computers for businesses.

Of course with the home recording revolution came an avalanch of crap which clogged the music industry with a bunch of people that were more in love with the idea of being a musician than actually producing listenable music. keeping good quality equipment rare and studio rates high really created a nice filter and kept alot mediocre talent in the basement where it belongs.

I'm sure if they could produce a film quality motion picture camera for $800, we would discover how truely mammoth the market for a APC sized sensor video camera is. There are as many people dreaming of being film makers as there were people dreaming of being recording musicians in the mid 90's. Of that, I am sure. Trust me, there is an avalanch of films from aspiring film makers just waiting to be unleashed that other wise would never see the light of day because of the eventual release of a cine quality camera in the sub $2,000 category.

The only silver lining there is, making good movies is hard, really hard, no matter what camera you have. There are so many aspects of production that are just really over whelming for anyone to master. Much harder than pumping out some music CD in a bedroom. Hopefully, the technical complexity will keep the truely mediocre in the basement where they belong (of which, I am probably one, no doubt). But they will sell these cheap cine video cameras by the boat load because people dream. There will always be more money in the industry that services the dreamers than dreamers that ever make it. It was better to sell supplies to gold miners during the gold rush, than actually be a gold miner. It is better to be a head shot photographer in Hollywood, than actually be an actor. The money lies in servicing the dreamer, not in being one.

My point is, the market is not small, but larger than any corporation dreamed of as evidenced by canon's happy little unintentional accident called the 5DII. They've been awakened to the possibilities. And Zacuto and Red Rock Micro are positioned to profit extremely well from the Gold Rush.
 
GRENCH said:
I believe his point was that if they were at the actual shoot out maybe so many people wouldn't be dissatisfied or should I say confused about the results of the GH1 because maybe they could have sent someone who would have made sure the camera was performing at it's peak. The screening is after the fact so it really meant nothing because they were as powerless as you and I to effect what has already taken place.
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Yep...

ATL Media Group said:
True, there should have been someone like Barry at the shootout to set up the GH1. I know P. Bloom could have tweaked it right had he been using it more than he has. Actually, I don't know of a GH1 "expert" that coulda done it.
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Seriously...

Ian-T said:
From what the shootout video showed us the only one that was there during setup was Canon. But they had no hands on and didn't interfere....even when told that off-brand lens would be used.
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Thats because the canon guy isn't the pro...
 
chrismagicc said:
I don't want to cause conflict or anything but i just found these two GH-1 shorts on vimeo and they blew me the #$@^ away! download the full HD video to see the astonishing quality!

http://vimeo.com/10512682

http://vimeo.com/9796533
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Those are JDS's (he's a mod here) if anyone can make a GH1 shine it's he and Barry Green (who produced, also a mod here) working in combo. No doubt it's some of the best GH1 stuff out there.
 
chrismagicc said:
I don't want to cause conflict or anything but i just found these two GH-1 shorts on vimeo and they blew me the #$@^ away! download the full HD video to see the astonishing quality!

http://vimeo.com/10512682

http://vimeo.com/9796533
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Lol why would that start fight? Glad you like them.
Cieloent said:
Footage looks great, the GH1, T2i, etc. are all great cameras. Knowing how to properly light + expose and the best lenses for the jobs brings amazing work. That footage and especially the directors work looks amazing.

I own a T2i and love it, but I also know there is a lot of great footage being shot on other dslrs as well. Thanks for the post, those clips look great!
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Yeah definitely all about knowing your camera in terms of getting the highest quality and most versatility from them.
ChipG said:
Those are JDS's (he's a mod here) if anyone can make a GH1 shine it's he and Barry Green (who produced, also a mod here) working in combo. No doubt it's some of the best GH1 stuff out there.
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We're like Turner and Hooch, only Barry slobbers more. Because of this we have to add $$$ for good underwater camera housings to our budget.
Barry_Green said:
Yes, those are mine & Jack's, shot by Vincent Pascoe, on a GH1.
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A DP with a good eye wins over any camera brand. If canon could sell Vincent Pascoes or Macgregors or Blooms in little man shaped cases to keep in your pocket for less than $2000 then things would really be democratized. :)
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
A DP with a good eye wins over any camera brand. If canon could sell Vincent Pascoes or Macgregors or Blooms in little man shaped cases to keep in your pocket for less than $2000 then things would really be democratized. :)
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This makes me think of a Philip Bloom pez dispenser for some reason... :happy:
 
Jack Barry & Vincent (As if I know you on the 1st name basis) that was wonderful to watch :)

Really enjoyed it. That looked awesome!
 
f64manray said:
I'm sure if they could produce a film quality motion picture camera for $800, we would discover how truely mammoth the market for a APC sized sensor video camera is. There are as many people dreaming of being film makers as there were people dreaming of being recording musicians in the mid 90's. Of that, I am sure. Trust me, there is an avalanch of films from aspiring film makers just waiting to be unleashed that other wise would never see the light of day because of the eventual release of a cine quality camera in the sub $2,000 category.

...

My point is, the market is not small, but larger than any corporation dreamed of as evidenced by canon's happy little unintentional accident called the 5DII. They've been awakened to the possibilities. And Zacuto and Red Rock Micro are positioned to profit extremely well from the Gold Rush.
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Do you have any market research to back up your claims?

And do you honestly think that the only reason why so many wannabe filmmakers haven't actually produced work is because they were waiting for affordable HD cameras with shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses to become available? Please. You have the myopia of someone who's spent too much time in a niche community. How do you know that most of the wannabe filmmakers out there actually care about shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses? Why don't you do a survey? You're saying that great-looking movies can't be made on a DVX100 or an HV40? Ones worthy of theatrical release?

If they're smart and savvy enough to care about the things that make DSLRs desirable as cinema cameras, then they would be able to find ways to realize their visions, if even HDSLRs never existed. Heck, that's exactly what they did before the year 2008.

And making movies is not simply hard. It's expensive. In my experience, the equipment is a small portion of a production's expenses. People routinely spend thousands of dollars on shorts. If you don't, then you're faced with the tough choice between cutting corners on production value or limiting your narrative options, unless you're extremely lucky to have a ton of favors to call-in. Having a DSLR won't make those issues go away.

I have friends who would say that they would love to make movies. One of them is even a freelance film critic. But what's stopped them isn't the lack of something like an HDSLR. Instead, they feel intimidated. Intimated by the production costs, the logistics, the nuances and challenges of the process, the technical details, etc. So an HDSLR wouldn't change anything for them. The only thing that DSLRs have changed is the aesthetic of no-budget productions from this point forward.
 
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DSLR's have also unfortunately changed the expectations of the people paying for film/video productions. They are all asking for the 5D now, and expecting since it costs 1/10 or 1/50 of what cameras cost before, that the rest of the production will cost that as well. However, the cost of production has not gone down. The logistics as the previous post stated are as omnipresent as ever.

There is no substitute for the initiative of the filmmaker. Most people, will continue to produce schlock microclips, camera tests and home videos, because all the rest is a serious investment of your days, weeks and years.
 
right on..... Just ran into that issue with a client...

DSLR's are not an end all by any-means - they impose a new set of problems and workarounds.
 
ydgmdlu said:
Do you have any market research to back up your claims?

And do you honestly think that the only reason why so many wannabe filmmakers haven't actually produced work is because they were waiting for affordable HD cameras with shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses to become available? Please. You have the myopia of someone who's spent too much time in a niche community. How do you know that most of the wannabe filmmakers out there actually care about shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses? Why don't you do a survey? You're saying that great-looking movies can't be made on a DVX100 or an HV40? Ones worthy of theatrical release?

If they're smart and savvy enough to care about the things that make DSLRs desirable as cinema cameras, then they would be able to find ways to realize their visions, if even HDSLRs never existed. Heck, that's exactly what they did before the year 2008.

And making movies is not simply hard. It's expensive. In my experience, the equipment is a small portion of a production's expenses. People routinely spend thousands of dollars on shorts. If you don't, then you're faced with the tough choice between cutting corners on production value or limiting your narrative options, unless you're extremely lucky to have a ton of favors to call-in. Having a DSLR won't make those issues go away.

I have friends who would say that they would love to make movies. One of them is even a freelance film critic. But what's stopped them isn't the lack of something like an HDSLR. Instead, they feel intimidated. Intimated by the production costs, the logistics, the nuances and challenges of the process, the technical details, etc. So an HDSLR wouldn't change anything for them. The only thing that DSLRs have changed is the aesthetic of no-budget productions from this point forward.
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As I said, there are still aspects of production that will keep many aspiring dreamers in their basement. The shear difficulty of film making will act as a filter and help reduce the glut of material in the market at least like we've seen with the home recording revolution which closed down many big studios, but I don't really recall the enthusiasm around other video cameras as I've seen around the DSLR concept.

As far as my market research goes, I'll use myself as a representative of thousands of photographers who have years of photographic experience and have always been interested in film making, but just never really connected with video technology or wanted to engage in the learning curve. Now, they can connect to it and slowly enter the field without having to spend thousands on a seperate image capture system. I was able to get a professional level motion picture image aquisition system while buying a pro level still camera. That was very appealing, and triggered an instant sale for Canon instead of the Yeah some day I'll get around to spending $2,700 on a DVX100 which isn't even HD. Alot of photographers just don't want to invest in video gear, but they will spend thousands on photo gear. I don't think I'm alone in that demographic. Of course, I've been sucked into spending thousands in support gear along the way. All part of a fun journey in learning the craft.

I'm not sure how myopic my vision is, as I've been sucked into this niche community from the outside, and the DSLR is solely responsible for that. I think I'm just one of thousands. I'm fairly certain Canon didn't do those firmware upgrades for just me, but thousands that were making the demand. I'm sure they were awakened to the demand of how many photographers wanted to pursue film making through their still camera. The thought of buying a dedicated video camera was as appealing as going to the dentist to me. Something I knew I needed to do, but just put it off forever, though I was getting fairly close to pulling the trigger on a DVX100. Man, am I glad I procrastinated. I would be one unhappy camper if I did that.
 
This for sure has heavily blurred the differences of videographers and photographers... especially on the small budget stuff which I was accustom too... Larger productions still have a chance for now... but that will inevitably change as features just get better and cheaper as time goes by.

Once face recognition and automated recording hits main stream- we are all out of a job :shocked:
 
I've met in my life (both business and personal) probably, what, a thousand people? Two thousand? People who I actually said, "Hi my name is _____ what I do is _____ who are you, what does your life consist of?" In my entire life, living in Chicago, growing up in the theatre, I've met exactly one person face to face in real life that actually wanted to make a film.

Most people want to be rich and famous. Typically they figure writing or acting is the cheapest and most accessible way to achieve that (and let's face it, anyone can be a successful writer or actor if that is literally the sole attention of their life), but I don't think filmmaker has the same glamour (and devil-may-care existence) for the average joe or average artist.

Grown-ups, people with jobs and savings and lives know that being a filmmaker is an incredible amount of work and requires personal investment of time and, often, a lot of money. DSLRs and HD in general may alleviate part of the monetary investment, but I doubt anyone is not making a movie because they can't afford film. Those people are (and have been) using that as an excuse.

Case in point, I had two investors that would have allowed me to shoot my current feature on film because of their investment dollars. But because I'm happy with what I can achieve with a mesh of DSLR HD, Prosumer w/ 35mm adapter, 16mm and S16mm (all of which I can manage with the funds I've delegated to the feature) I was able to let those investors go. The additional capital is there if I need it, but why use money that you don't absolutely (ABSOLUTELY) need?

More than anything DSLRs and HD removes the ability for someone to use film as an excuse as to why they can't make their movie. That's all.
 
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