With everyone going crazy over large sensor DSLR cameras - (I'd love to know how many people have moved exclusively to DSLR's) I wonder what the future of P2 is. I noticed that Panasonics new micro 4/3 camera shoots to CF card not P2. Imagine if they released a large sensor CMOS based camera that shot AVC intra to P2. They would keep all of their indy film makers who bought the 200 and have P2 and hold back Canon.
the future of P2
- Thread starter ryaninoz
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes, we all know that and have been lobbying heavily for a P2 version.
Thing is, the DSLR shooters are there for many reasons, not the least of which is price. And a P2 version of the AF100 would cost (according to Jan) about $2,000 more. To me, that's money well spent, but is it to the larger marketplace? Maybe not. So they're introducing the AF100 as an AVCCAM product, and we'll see if they produce a P2 version or not.
NAB this year was almost entirely P2 introductions, with new P2 readers and transfer stations and the HPX370, etc. The future of P2, as far as I can tell, is that P2 is for all the high-end/broadcast products, and AVCCAM is aimed at the mass market (what they define as the professional market).
Thing is, the DSLR shooters are there for many reasons, not the least of which is price. And a P2 version of the AF100 would cost (according to Jan) about $2,000 more. To me, that's money well spent, but is it to the larger marketplace? Maybe not. So they're introducing the AF100 as an AVCCAM product, and we'll see if they produce a P2 version or not.
NAB this year was almost entirely P2 introductions, with new P2 readers and transfer stations and the HPX370, etc. The future of P2, as far as I can tell, is that P2 is for all the high-end/broadcast products, and AVCCAM is aimed at the mass market (what they define as the professional market).
But they were happy to fit the HVX & HPX171 with P2, aren't those in similar markets??
As the line between consumer and pro converges (none more so than the AF100) - manufacturers are sending confusing messages to the market, I suppose in a reaction to demand.
The EX1 is a great example, there appears to be many ways of avoiding SxS - which it was designed around!! Some would say this is choice but I'm not so sure, it's like messing with your stock suspension on your newly built car.
As the line between consumer and pro converges (none more so than the AF100) - manufacturers are sending confusing messages to the market, I suppose in a reaction to demand.
The EX1 is a great example, there appears to be many ways of avoiding SxS - which it was designed around!! Some would say this is choice but I'm not so sure, it's like messing with your stock suspension on your newly built car.
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Andy Olson
Well-known member
With the AF100 shooting to AVCCAM, but having an HD-SDI out, do you think Panasonic is trying to encourage the use of the HPG20 unit with the AF100 for P2 users? Then you can have AVC-intra or DVCPROHD and use p2 cards and Panasonic can satisfy both consumer and prosumer filmmakers.
Will the AF-100 really be a replacement for the HVX/HPX line or even video cameras in general? I thought the AF100 more of a DSLR in a video camera body for mainly independent filmmakers. I don't see event, wedding or ENG videographers going for the AF100 (at least as a main camera) with the shallow dof it's going to bring.
P2 is probably going to be around for a good bit still especially because it's professionally used media.
Will the AF-100 really be a replacement for the HVX/HPX line or even video cameras in general? I thought the AF100 more of a DSLR in a video camera body for mainly independent filmmakers. I don't see event, wedding or ENG videographers going for the AF100 (at least as a main camera) with the shallow dof it's going to bring.
P2 is probably going to be around for a good bit still especially because it's professionally used media.
I agree with Andy, though I don't think that having to purchase an add-on module for the AF100 is such a bad thing if it can easily be mounted to the camera. Frankly, though I've never had an problems with SD card media, I vastly prefer P2 (though a P2-like system in an SD card size would be terrific). An add-on P2 module for the AF100 would be something I'd definitely look into getting.
But you'd got the guys who bought into the P2 system like ourselves and bolted 35mm adapters on the front!
It's surely closer to the 171/151 market cost-wise than DSLR. For that market the GH1 already exists.
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Andy Olson
Well-known member
Yeah, we've all bolted the 35mm adapters on front of our P2 cameras for narrative films, but the difference is that we could take it off and use the camera like a video camera with lots of depth of field.
Maybe Panasonic has a large sensor, P2, Avc-intra camera they are working on for a higher price point? The AF100 would fit the consumer/prosumer market wanting a DSLR in a video camera body and making it AVCCAM may cover a bigger market like Barry suggested. And with the optional HPG20 p2 unit that would increase the market size even more.
Plus who wants to use little SD/CF cards when you can have a huge manly P2 card! P2 users can always say 'mines bigger that yours...not gB-wise, but you know...it's bigger.'
Maybe Panasonic has a large sensor, P2, Avc-intra camera they are working on for a higher price point? The AF100 would fit the consumer/prosumer market wanting a DSLR in a video camera body and making it AVCCAM may cover a bigger market like Barry suggested. And with the optional HPG20 p2 unit that would increase the market size even more.
Plus who wants to use little SD/CF cards when you can have a huge manly P2 card! P2 users can always say 'mines bigger that yours...not gB-wise, but you know...it's bigger.'
A few thoughts:
The SDI-HD option is already built into the HPX170, so Intra capture is already an option.
SDI-HD out on the AF-100 makes sense to use due to the form factor, as it is a cam that is meant to be on stix and an extra box for capture is no big deal.
I can't see the AF-100 replacing the HPX170 because of the form factor. Seems like they would go intra with the HPX170 if they did anything.
To me they really seem like two very different cams which both have viable markets. The Af-100 will be perfect for the DSLR crowd that wants to ditch the kluggy workflow.
I really would prefer the AF-100 were P2 and not AVCHD. Though an AF100 + HMC40 would be an interesting option.
Grant
The SDI-HD option is already built into the HPX170, so Intra capture is already an option.
SDI-HD out on the AF-100 makes sense to use due to the form factor, as it is a cam that is meant to be on stix and an extra box for capture is no big deal.
I can't see the AF-100 replacing the HPX170 because of the form factor. Seems like they would go intra with the HPX170 if they did anything.
To me they really seem like two very different cams which both have viable markets. The Af-100 will be perfect for the DSLR crowd that wants to ditch the kluggy workflow.
I really would prefer the AF-100 were P2 and not AVCHD. Though an AF100 + HMC40 would be an interesting option.
Grant
Barry_Green
Moderator
The HVX was the first professional solid-state HD camcorder of any type. It was the first, and P2 was the only recording medium out there. And, in the target market that P2 has had such success in (news/eng/etc) there's plenty of room for a handheld 1/3" camera. So it makes plenty of sense.
But that market isn't the same as the filmmaker market. So does it make more sense for the AF100 to be an AVCCAM product? Clearly Panasonic thinks so, while I've done my fair share of whining that I'd prefer it be P2-based. I'm hoping they make two, an AF100 and an "AF150" P2-cam, just like they have the HMC150 and HPX170, basically the same cameras with the major difference being AVCCAM vs. P2.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think a lot of shooters will replace a conventional video camera with one. But for uses like sports and events, I don't think it makes nearly as much sense as just sticking with a 1/3" pro video camera.
No, it's not a DSLR at all. It's a large-sensor professional video camera, for filmmakers and professional video shooters.
I will agree that events and ENG and sports would probably be less interested, but I think a lot of wedding shooters would think they'd died and gone to heaven with an AF100, because they could have all the romantic cinematic lushness of the shallow-DOF image, but all the hassle-free operation of a pro video camera instead of a frankensteined-together DSLR that stops recording after 12 minutes.
It's captured about 80% of the market for professional broadcast/news. It's extremely well established. I think what's happening is that when it started out, it was marketed as the future of all recording for everyone, but now that AVCCAM is out, they're more willing to let go of the so-called "low end" from P2 and let AVCCAM establish itself there, while P2 moves upmarket more into broadcast/news and high-budget production.
I'm working on a project right now that involves 9 P2 recorders in AVC-Intra. This is a fairly huge-budget undertaking and once-in-a-lifetime footage, and there is no way we would trust it to anything BUT P2...
I hope P2 has a solid future - I'm thrilled with my 64 gig cards. 128 gig cards would be good though especially for doco shoots. I would love to not have to capture anything until I got back from say a weeks shoot but unless P2 cards halve in price then that's not gonna happen.
Panasonic and Sony must be hurting thanks to Canon, I really think the only way forward for them is to shift upwards into big sensors across the board. The days of charging tens of thousands for a 2/3 inch camera when Canon is making a fortune selling DSLR's with sensors bigger than 35mm film are over.
Panasonic and Sony must be hurting thanks to Canon, I really think the only way forward for them is to shift upwards into big sensors across the board. The days of charging tens of thousands for a 2/3 inch camera when Canon is making a fortune selling DSLR's with sensors bigger than 35mm film are over.
Spotlight Media
Well-known member
I second that subtleinspiration.
Mark Smith
Veteran
I think P2 has some way to go yet.... As compression schemes become more efficient, the bandwidth of P2 recording becomes able to manage higher quality imagery. I think there is something in the works beyond AVC Intra, maybe AVC Ultra or something like that, which will still probably work on P2 media and extend its life.
nedcam
Well-known member
I am being pressured more for the DSLR look, anyone else? I was about to buy more P2 cards and was thinking of moving away from laptop field downloading to a AJ-PCD35 or AG-HPG10 but now I am not feeling as secure in the P2 universe. At first I thought this DSLR movement was just for music vids, indies, spots...but now it's spreading like the flu.
Of course I need to keep the 300 for corp jobs, shoulder work, etc., and rent 2700s & HDX900s for TV shows, but clients are digging the really shallow DoF look. I'd rather not invest in those kind of gangly rigs ($5000-$7000?) and move to a AF100 ASAP. I don't care about compression schemes, etc., just where the market is heading and what clients are asking for. In sum, I'm hoping to skip DSLRs and go to something like the AF100, and not put any more money into P2 cards and hardware. Anyone else in my situation?
Of course I need to keep the 300 for corp jobs, shoulder work, etc., and rent 2700s & HDX900s for TV shows, but clients are digging the really shallow DoF look. I'd rather not invest in those kind of gangly rigs ($5000-$7000?) and move to a AF100 ASAP. I don't care about compression schemes, etc., just where the market is heading and what clients are asking for. In sum, I'm hoping to skip DSLRs and go to something like the AF100, and not put any more money into P2 cards and hardware. Anyone else in my situation?
I'm holding my breath for the AF100 as well. Just purchased two new P216 E Series to cover some development work. Same total price as what I paid for my first two 4GB cards when I bought an early HVX200!
This DSLR stuff is going to become more and more prominent. But only because it is an inexpensive means to an end. I think about everything I have to do to get the HPX300 to achieve a shallower depth of field and understand why people abandon concerns over codec to get that look.
The GH1(3) represents a good interim solution for artistic work, though I wouldn't want to rely on any DSLR for paid video work. I suppose the producers are all savvy enough to know the limitations that come with a DSLR when they do their extensive pre-production research.
My strong personal opinion is that Panasonic needs to continue to build upon the P2 form-factor and not integrate SD and CF card solutions as primary recording media within their broadcast and pro-sumer line-ups.
In the Lumix or lower-end ProLine series cameras, I understand the need to go to less expensive media. It is what it is and, honestly, the long-GOP crowd doesn't seem to care much about it - at least not enough to jump into the more expensive platforms, which feature better intra-frame, higher color-sampling codecs and more robust recording media to support same.
This DSLR stuff is going to become more and more prominent. But only because it is an inexpensive means to an end. I think about everything I have to do to get the HPX300 to achieve a shallower depth of field and understand why people abandon concerns over codec to get that look.
The GH1(3) represents a good interim solution for artistic work, though I wouldn't want to rely on any DSLR for paid video work. I suppose the producers are all savvy enough to know the limitations that come with a DSLR when they do their extensive pre-production research.
My strong personal opinion is that Panasonic needs to continue to build upon the P2 form-factor and not integrate SD and CF card solutions as primary recording media within their broadcast and pro-sumer line-ups.
In the Lumix or lower-end ProLine series cameras, I understand the need to go to less expensive media. It is what it is and, honestly, the long-GOP crowd doesn't seem to care much about it - at least not enough to jump into the more expensive platforms, which feature better intra-frame, higher color-sampling codecs and more robust recording media to support same.
I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic comes out with their own 12bit 4:4:4 codec. They need something to compete with ProRes. 300Mb (bit) is easily handled with todays desktop systems.
I'm pretty sure their existing cmos chips are capable of outputing that.
A direct compeitor (in chip size and price) to the PMW 350 would be nice. Add 4:4:4 in camera video and they would own that market segment.
I'm pretty sure their existing cmos chips are capable of outputing that.
A direct compeitor (in chip size and price) to the PMW 350 would be nice. Add 4:4:4 in camera video and they would own that market segment.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Codecs are one place Panasonic currently dominates the competition. They're offering 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe when Sony charges more for 8-bit 4:2:0 long-GoP.
They already offer a direct competitor to the PMW350 in chip size (2/3") and price (much less), the HPX500.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I thought the HPX500 didn't offer AVCIntra? Plus a very poor view finder.
does it shoot 1920x1080 or 1440x1080?
so to be competitive..., basically a HPX370 but with 2/3" sensors and 4:4:4 recording.
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