The F3 is already obsolete

Realistically, RED is the only current option for getting 4k that I'm aware of. Yes, Sony has made it clear they're going to compete, but they're not to market yet.

In a year, this conversation may change drastically, but for the moment, RED is relevant since they're the one offering 4K today.
 
Kholi said:
I'm curious as to how much a personal/private owner's F3 kit's gonna go for. My wager's 250~350 full decked.
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750 or so, no lenses.

ITs about who your clients are and how complete our kit is. for example the guy with the $200 reds the package looks somethign like this:

RedONE M - sensor. ( no MX)
REDdrive
EVF
5" LCD
REDrock MAttebox
Redrock FF
Redrock support stuff.
Sachtler Video 20 head.
MAYBE theres a 19mm setup, thats bargian basement or severely used.
3batteries and a beat up charger
a old Mac for offloading.


My package look like this:

F3
4x SXScards (optional Cinedeck)
Small HD DP6
Panasonic BTLH80 7" monitor
Panasonic BTLH2600wp 26" monitor
O connor OBOX
Oconnor Ogrips
Element techncha 19mm setup
Zacuto full setup w/ Anton bauer batteries.
ARRI FF4 Follow Focus
Sacthler Cine30 Head w/ Low legs, Tall legs and High hat all 150mm Bowl.
Cineslider
Kessler crane
(future zacuto ZEVF)

Cooke Pancho leses
Cooke 18-100 T3 Varotal
Duclos 11-16 T3

Clients will pay for a good package for top dollar because my package makes them look good on set i never have to say, o hi cant get that shot because XYZ, nor do they have ot wait because of somethign jerry rigged. They get all the shots they need that day, with no compromise, and that why they come back to me. Building good clients is just as important as building a god package.
 
TimurCivan said:
750 or so, no lenses.

ITs about who your clients are and how complete our kit is. for example the guy with the $200 reds the package looks somethign like this:

RedONE M - sensor. ( no MX)
REDdrive
EVF
5" LCD
REDrock MAttebox
Redrock FF
Redrock support stuff.
Sachtler Video 20 head.
MAYBE theres a 19mm setup, thats bargian basement or severely used.
3batteries and a beat up charger
a old Mac for offloading.


My package look like this:

F3
4x SXScards (optional Cinedeck)
Small HD DP6
Panasonic BTLH80 7" monitor
Panasonic BTLH2600wp 26" monitor
O connor OBOX
Oconnor Ogrips
Element techncha 19mm setup
Zacuto full setup w/ Anton bauer batteries.
ARRI FF4 Follow Focus
Sacthler Cine30 Head w/ Low legs, Tall legs and High hat all 150mm Bowl.
Cineslider
Kessler crane
(future zacuto ZEVF)

Cooke Pancho leses
Cooke 18-100 T3 Varotal
Duclos 11-16 T3

Clients will pay for a good package for top dollar because my package makes them look good on set i never have to say, o hi cant get that shot because XYZ, nor do they have ot wait because of somethign jerry rigged. They get all the shots they need that day, with no compromise, and that why they come back to me.
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That's a pretty nice package. It's funny how similar the climate is in NY and L.A. If you're shooting for people who know to pay for the good stuff (talent included) then there's nothing to worry about. Sadly, that isn't the case all the time! as you know, haha. Hence the DSLR influx.

Although, your identical package in MX terms goes for 500/day here, now. Everyone's scrambling before Epic's and F3's roll out and finish what the DSLRs and RED's started: total obliteration of the rental market.

Edit/Added: the cameras I use still go out for real rates. Just thought I'd throw that in there in case your'e thinking' I'm one of those 500/day guys! I'll do it for friends and people I've worked with, but not for unknowns.
 
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Viddovation said:
Realistically, RED is the only current option for getting 4k that I'm aware of. Yes, Sony has made it clear they're going to compete, but they're not to market yet.

In a year, this conversation may change drastically, but for the moment, RED is relevant since they're the one offering 4K today.
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Me thinks I'll term it another way:

Acquiring in 4K+ gives a host of options in post when you need it, and even reframing up to 3X in 4.5K (my first hand experience) can be visually acceptable for today's 1080/2K distribution methods. The F3's 1080 image, when paired with an external recorder--from what I've seen, looks like a robust 1080 image as well.

Hopefully that's better.
 
Kholi said:
Because if their product shines, so does my reel, and that keeps my crappy apartment roof over my head.
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That's a very salient point - I tend to have the same attitude and work ethic. But in terms of a reel, most people are watching reels online now - compressed on Vimeo and such. On that delivery medium, the F3 can compete with the downscaled RED footage very nicely. And what I'm pitching is me as a product. If the client wants to change the acquisition format, no sweat - the F3 (and currently EX1/Letus Ultimate) reel still got my foot in the door.

That's how I'm able to approach the business on my economics.
 
stockfuel said:
Yea, yea... weren't Epic-Xs supposed to start shipping out in small numbers in February? I'm just bored senseless of RED's promises.
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Well they shipped half a dozen or so. Not impressive or anything, but at least it's a start.

stockfuel said:
So, hopefully Sony might announced a 4K camera and we can actually plan a project around it.
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Who is "we," though? Sony's camera would cost 12x what Epic does (I'd bet double that if it matches Epic's specs [minus HDR, no way Sony is that brave]).
 
Lee Saxon said:
Well they shipped half a dozen or so. Not impressive or anything, but at least it's a start.
Click to expand...

Its not really a start until the average Joe can walk into the Red store and buy an Epic. A few hand made cameras sent to select fans bound to give great reviews don't count.

Lee Saxon said:
Who is "we," though? Sony's camera would cost 12x what Epic does (I'd bet double that if it matches Epic's specs [minus HDR, no way Sony is that brave]).
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I don't see Sony as ever trying to copy Red's specs simply because its an entirely different approach to the series of engineering problems and compromises that arise from trying to make a great camera at a reasonable price.

Red has hitched its ride to super high resolution and doing all the image tweaks in post. It has the advantage of producing a super image if you have someone in post with the time, learning curve, knowledge, fast computer and storage capacity to realize those advantages to the fullest.

If you don't its frustrating, expensive and you end up with those crappy images everyone starts out with in Red clips.

Sony and Arri Alexa have gone a way that produces a faster turn around time, takes less storage, fits in with current work flows, fits in with current accessories, a fast learning curve, etc.

All three seem to be great cameras. Just select the advantages needed for your type of work, the budgets your jobs have and see what you can buy now. Your decision is then complete, there's no real debate to it.

:laugh:
 
Lee Saxon said:
Well they shipped half a dozen or so. Not impressive or anything, but at least it's a start.
Click to expand...

They have shipped Epic-M, not Epic-X ... quite a big difference as it means the Epic-X production line is still not moving, a month after it was supposed to.

Anyway, I'm not here to bash RED.... I just get a bit worked up when people go on about Epic/Scarlet as if they are viable, purchasable products.
 
Kholi said:
Me thinks I'll term it another way:

Acquiring in 4K+ gives a host of options in post when you need it, and even reframing up to 3X in 4.5K (my first hand experience) can be visually acceptable for today's 1080/2K distribution methods. The F3's 1080 image, when paired with an external recorder--from what I've seen, looks like a robust 1080 image as well.

Hopefully that's better.
Click to expand...

I often look at the 4k 1080 thing as shooting a raw image on the highest setting on a DSLR (the newer models) you can do a lot with that image vs. choosing the smallest size
in a jpg format. Somehow folk cannot understand this I don't know why, maybe they think it's all hype, and I can't see how it can be if know DPs are using the gear I mean come on...
 
Get this Arri brochure:
http://www.arri.de/camera/tutorials/4k_systems_theory_basics_for_motion_picture_imaging.html
Arriscan is capable of 4k (with 6k oversampling) to pull all detail from the negative film. (4000dpi is also the standard stills film scanner resolution) .*
That 4k detail can be seen by a 20/20 vision viewer sitting one diagonal from the screen. Alexa2 will be 4k (with 6k oversampling).
* width of S35 frame 25mm and 4000 pixels happen to coincide with 4000dpi from another field
 
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Duke M. said:
Its not really a start until the average Joe can walk into the Red store and buy an Epic. A few hand made cameras sent to select fans bound to give great reviews don't count.
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I don't think that would be a "start," I think that would be production fully ramped up and all the (many) pre-orders filled. And by the way:

http://royalgalactic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/20110302-040131.jpg

The Epic-Ms are not being babied.

Duke M. said:
I don't see Sony as ever trying to copy Red's specs simply because its an entirely different approach...
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I agree with everything you said here, my point was the "Sony's solution will cost 12x as much for [other than workflow, as you said] likely similar final results," which is something I find frustrating. I can dream of one day owning an Epic. I have no hope of working my way up to an F35. Though brand loyalty isn't SUPER important to me, that kinda draws me to starting out on Scarlet instead of, say, NXCAM.
 
Lee Saxon said:
I can dream of one day owning an Epic. I have no hope of working my way up to an F35. Though brand loyalty isn't SUPER important to me, that kinda draws me to starting out on Scarlet instead of, say, NXCAM.
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Why would you want to Own a F35? its a 1/4 million dollars. Just rent it when you need it. Why do you feel you need to own a camera to benefit from it.
 
TimurCivan said:
Why would you want to Own a F35? its a 1/4 million dollars. Just rent it when you need it. Why do you feel you need to own a camera to benefit from it.
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If you're just doing features & shorts, or possibly events, that model works.

I'm more of a "hey turns out I'm free this afternoon, I think I'll go to shoot something" kind of guy. Only really works if you own.

I'm not saying that makes the F35 a bad choice in general, just for me.

Duke M. said:
Well, he's not having an overheating problem. :-)
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zing!
 
Lee Saxon said:
If you're just doing features & shorts, or possibly events, that model works.

I'm more of a "hey turns out I'm free this afternoon, I think I'll go to shoot something" kind of guy. Only really works if you own.

I'm not saying that makes the F35 a bad choice in general, just for me.
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Not if you're a shooter and work amongst this gear. The very first time I shot 35mm motion picture film was when I was a 1st assistant in the midwest in the 90s, and the shoot I was working on had a weekend break. I had a Arri 35BL4 package, and a load of short ends I'd been collecting.

My point is that after you concentrate on getting the work, the spoils (borrowed $200K cameras, etc etc) eventually you get for free. These days I know enough people I can borrow just about any camera I'd like to try, mainly because I worked myself up to a point where I'm friends with people that own them or control access to them. Make sense?
 
Duke M. said:
Its not really a start until the average Joe can walk into the Red store and buy an Epic. A few hand made cameras sent to select fans bound to give great reviews don't count.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to note that at this point, "a few" = nearly two hundred.
 
I am more of an opportunistic solo shooter, so its nice to have a decent quality handy and reasonably affordable rig on tap 24/7 to take advantage of whatever might come along. Might be a day hike nature shoot, in kind services donation to a worthy cause or political campaign, the occasional industrial or commercial shoot, documenting performances of one kind or another, or just responding to a creative muse. Ownership is opportunity.
" Reasonably affordable" for me means a complete light field package: camera, lenses, accessories, media, support, and a simple interview light kit under about $15k or so. Not workable with an F3, though it looks to be a very nice camera. AF100 is of minor interest, but not compelling. Still looking forward to a Scarlet.
 
not interested in narrative commercial cinema ploys.....gallery and museum projections is where I´m at ....and 1080 is enough for now - It´s all a time, energy, finance tradeoff in the endgame - sonys´4k is good strategy for sony- sony is trying to conquer the imaging field, high to low and more power to them because it benefits imagemakers in the finals.....but just because we´re on the rocket , we don´t have to forget we´re going to the moon ! In other words , the technology has arrived at an extremely reasonable cost for just about any kind of independently financed project, so don´t get lost in the rocketdream and forget the destination. And even if I had the choice between the F3 and the nxcam s35, I´d probably choose the cheaper camera. Cameras are changing too fast to invest too much money in equiping ...and I love the idea of being able to use the same lenses on a $600 nex5 . Now that I´m thinking about it.....I think the nex5 is still enough...or the ghs´, or the af100. And truthfully I feel sorry for someone trying to stay ahead of the game by being rented out. I worked for two weeks for Victor Duncan in the early 70s´out of school.....what a dragggg. Never thought about commercial cinema since. I went back to s8 with no regrets ! Stay free and be happy.
 
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