I agree. Until Canon does a video upgrade (which I know they easily can) that address the Moire and maybe a bit sharper image, I'm not upgrading.
The EOS 60D has been announced
- Thread starter hgf4
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I agree. Until Canon does a video upgrade (which I know they easily can) that address the Moire and maybe a bit sharper image, I'm not upgrading.
Timbit
Too Quiet Member
But then they will lose all sales on their other video DSLRs, so they'd have to upgrade the whole line.
That is a possibility though. Only I'd expect to see it in the high-end cameras for the first while. Something like the 5D Mark III?
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I wouldn't necessarily say it's easy for them, as I've not used a Canon camera with CMOS that didn't exhibit rainbow moire. In fact, I went back to my HV30 and sure enough, it has the problem as well, although much less.
Clearly they need to rethink their engineering on this one. And sensor design takes a lot more time than you might think. The fab process alone will take at least a few months to get it through. Then, once you come up with a few designs and test them, then you need to get a working part through as well.
I design CMOS circuits, for anything analog, and CMOS sensor design is, you cannot simulate it all easily. The physics are just too much considering the variance.
That said, I completely agree. I use the 7D and I am SO TIRED of the rainbow!
I would imagine they just need a cmos design that's capable of addressing enough pixels to approximate multisampling/supersampling fast enough to do 2k (and eventually 4k?). Of course ideally it wouldn't do skip line at all and would just read the whole sensor and downscale (essentially multisampling) fast enough to do 30-60fps at 1080p, but imagine the jello you'd get without that being VERY fast...and you'd still need the dsp muscle to handle that downscaling (and an algorithm that didn't just result in a blurrier image.)
My preference in using double system would be to have the reference track on AGC, so I'm not looking at the manual audio gain as a boon, as it is implemented on 60D (and GH2) buried inaccessibly deep in the menu maps.
I do ENG / doc work and I routinely adjust audio gain why rolling. My sound sources are constantly changing and often drastically. Here are examples from recent shoots.
Example: I'm shooting an assembled group of people outdoors at a chapel dedication. I'm trying to pick up dialogue with a shotgun mounted on the camera. Some people speak more loudly than others. Then I have cheering and applause which buries the meter. Then someone turns on a PA system and someone grabs the mic and is talking very loudly. (And by chance, I'm standing three feet from the speaker.)
Example: I'm taking my audio from a podium-mounted mic and the person speaking sometimes stands on the podium mic and sometimes stands three feet off-mic as she leans over a computer navigating her powerpoint.
Example: I'm recording sound through a camera mounted shotgun and I move for another angle which is closer or further from my sound source. In these situations, I generally keep rolling while I reset, but even if I cut between setups, in an ENG situation I may want to roll again and then refine my footage by then fine tuning mic gain levels.
Example: I'm working with an assistant who is micing people off camera with a wireless lav while I'm rolling, and then checking levels on each person before he steps into frame.
Admittedly, my audio is going to be less than ideal until I am able to react and adjust gain levels, but imagine that I have to stop rolling video in order to make my adjustments.
For that reason, with a 60D, I would continue to use my H4N for a double system, and keep the camera on AGC. But that's just me dealing with my work environment. If I had the ability to change levels while rolling with dedicated controls or at least with onscreen menus as you would with a proper video camera, then I would dump the H4N.
Now, I would accept as a solution, a mixer feed into the 60D on manual gain and the camera preamp dialed down. But I could never work with the camera's manual audio controls alone.
singleframe
Well-known member
Whaaat? I'm always riding the audio levels when I'm recording. It does depend on what you are recording, but adjusting the levels when shooting is a big part of what I do.
I own the T2i and this 60D just isn't enough to make me upgrade...going to wait to see what Canon does as far as video quality/censor....12 min limit per 'take'...among other things....
markblasco
Well-known member
Well, had a chance to test it at best buy today. A couple of notes that probably won't be helpful to people who have been in the Canon DSLR game, but may be helpful for people who are thinking about ditching a smaller handheld camcorder for one (such as myself):
No audio level meters on the screen while recording means you don't know if you've overloaded your audio. It seems a bit silly to me to put gain adjustments on there, but then not let you see if your gains aren't set right.
The auto focus is not at all usable while filming. The image changes brightness, it takes 5-10 seconds to lock on, it is just terrible.
The lens that comes with it (I believe the same one comes with the 7D) was interesting. You didn't have a lot of distance in the focus knob, which made it a bit difficult to focus. Turn it just a hair and all of a sudden you are focusing 5 feet further.
Also with this lens, even if you lock your aperture at something high enough so that it doesn't change when you zoom, you still can't zoom in and out without seeing the image change in brightness. I tried this at F10, and when you zoom in or out, when you reach the end of your zoom, it gets brighter or darker as it re adjusts itself.
Now, what was interesting to me is that even with F5.6 or F8, the depth of field still was very "good" (meaning there was still a lot out of focus). I was assuming that you would want to get a lens that stops down further than the kit lens in order to get "good" DOF shots, but it doesn't look like that is the case. Some of the shots I got of people in the store had a really nice depth of field even at F8. Coming from a camcorder with a small sensor and almost no DOF, I wasn't expecting that.
So, maybe this is helpful to people, maybe not. It's just stuff that I would have wanted to know, since I have never done video on a DSLR before.
No audio level meters on the screen while recording means you don't know if you've overloaded your audio. It seems a bit silly to me to put gain adjustments on there, but then not let you see if your gains aren't set right.
The auto focus is not at all usable while filming. The image changes brightness, it takes 5-10 seconds to lock on, it is just terrible.
The lens that comes with it (I believe the same one comes with the 7D) was interesting. You didn't have a lot of distance in the focus knob, which made it a bit difficult to focus. Turn it just a hair and all of a sudden you are focusing 5 feet further.
Also with this lens, even if you lock your aperture at something high enough so that it doesn't change when you zoom, you still can't zoom in and out without seeing the image change in brightness. I tried this at F10, and when you zoom in or out, when you reach the end of your zoom, it gets brighter or darker as it re adjusts itself.
Now, what was interesting to me is that even with F5.6 or F8, the depth of field still was very "good" (meaning there was still a lot out of focus). I was assuming that you would want to get a lens that stops down further than the kit lens in order to get "good" DOF shots, but it doesn't look like that is the case. Some of the shots I got of people in the store had a really nice depth of field even at F8. Coming from a camcorder with a small sensor and almost no DOF, I wasn't expecting that.
So, maybe this is helpful to people, maybe not. It's just stuff that I would have wanted to know, since I have never done video on a DSLR before.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
Yep, kit lens on 7D has same problem. Iris constantly reajusting. I don't zoom while I shoot and typically use primes more than anything, but I do use it in a pinch. The focus distance though, yeah, it's a huge pain.
Jordan Scott Price
Veteran
You can't use it while filming, anyway. And it's not terrible for setting up your shot. I'm assuming here - because this is what the 7D allows you to do - that you can put the focus square on a subject while in Live View, hold down the shutter button, and it will autofocus. That's perfectly usable if you don't have an external monitor to get precise focus, although I would recommend using a medium to small aperture when doing so to get greater depth of field, thus more room for "error."
markblasco said:
The 7D kit lens is the Canon EF-S 28-135mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS USM; the 60D kit comes with the EF-S 18-135mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS UD.
Shaneuk
Active member
You don't need it. Manual is perfectly fine.
I could see this being a good back up camera for combined use with either the 7D or the 5D mkii because of the same battery. The improvements are really good. I need to go into a camera store and have a proper look at it.
Me thinks you have never used a Dslr before....
markblasco
Well-known member
I thought I had made that clear in my post
Canon is pushing the video on this camera more than ever before, and for me this camera would need to replace my every day video camera if I was going to justify purchasing it right now. With the marketing they are doing for this camera, I think it is fair that there are probably quite a few people who have never thought of using a DSLR for video before who will now be doing research (like myself).
markblasco
Well-known member
Good point on the focusing. After failing to get a sharp focus using a 35mm adapter several times due to the small screen on my camera, this makes sense for setting up a shot and helping to trust that it is in focus without an external monitor. For someone looking to replace their camcorder with this, though, it is a little disappointing that they didn't find some way to allow for better auto focusing in the middle of recording.
As for the lens, when I went into Glazers last week asking about the 60D, their 7D kit came with an 18-135, so I assumed that it was the same lens. I guess I'll have to look into it a little more.
As a one-man-band, I would like the option of AF during recording for holding focus without a focus puller during tracking shots or when subject is moving fore or back in frame. I like where Panasonic has gone with this with GH2. Now I haven't tried a GH2 on such a shot, but I would hope it would be smoother than I could pull off by hand, and that it would be more accurate.
Currently, for a tripod/dolly shot, I make a focus reference at each end of the planned dolly move, then try to hold focus as I dolly in or out. It can require multiple takes, which is not usually practical in an ENG/doc setting (never mind that in the planning and setup I may lose the moment and the shot), and so makes anything but crab shots prohibitive for my employment of the dolly. So, I would love a useable AF function.
I thought I had made that clear in my post
The problem is you are depending on auto focus when these cameras never provided that option properly. Hdslrs resemble the work more of manual focus, manual controls, manual everything. It's not like using a video camera at all, it resembles more to film.
Also I love manual focus as it brings me more in tune with the camera + out of focus shots mixed with in focus shots is a look I truly like using. Point that I am making is Hdslr is more of a multiple take use kind of camera requiring a lot of shots so you cn edit something properly.
While many people use them for wedding events, imo it is not a camera ( at least easily ) used for that kind of situation just because they way it works and it's functions.
Now if we are shooting a Music Video, Movie, documentary etc. then these cameras are perfect. Basically you need to understand how they work and not having auto focus is not a knock as it is simply something it does not provide properly. Go and buy a Gh1 with the kit lens if you want auto focus.
Ren Tachino
Active member
Even better, a GH2