C200: The Canon C200 Petition

To quote Michael Thames,

"The problem with all these anologies of houses and hamburgers is...... yea people understand logically why Canon does what it does. I know logically a used car salesman has to make a living too, but I also know I'm probably getting screwed. I find it a bit odd that consumers have been so conditioned that they actually are OK with the idea Canon is forcing customers to buy two cameras when one will do, and they purposefully deconstruct a codec for that purpose, when the answer is so simple 2 more bits. 10 bit 422 should be standard on any $7500 camera in this day and age, and we all know it. They have us by the balls, and people are making excuses why they like there balls in a compromised situation.

Seems to me enough people jumped ship because Canon was slow in providing slow motion enough people including Philip Bloom complained and Canon responded. Making excuses for Canon not providing slow-mo seems rather silly , but to me that's how you all sound when you support Canon's anti-canalizations polices. Maybe the time has come for Canon to eat their own for a change. Who is gonna buy another C300 mkiii for $16,000 bucks again? Or a C500 mkii for $25,000 or whatever."



Well said!


* But Canon must be having a good laugh with all of this back-n-forth nonsense. They must think that any effort to affect change is a joke considering we can't even agree to sign a simple petition.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
I'm actually in favor of the opposite petition, the petition to leave 10 bit 4:2:2 out of the C200. As an owner of two C300 Mark IIs, I would not appreciate Canon cannibalizing my $36,000 investment so soon by releasing a C200 which with 10 bit 4:2:2 would then be closer to being better than the C300 Mark II, but at a lower price point, thus more quickly out-dating the C300 Mark II...
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So, you're a NIMBY?

What if ARRI came out with a $7,500 camera - let's call it AMIRA II - before you bought one? Would you still be against it?

PS. When I first began posting here, I write that the camera industry is going to the way of the old musical equipment idea. At first, people were showing off their Stradivari, costing tens of thousands if not millions. But, post-WWII, those were replaced by a $150 Telecaster and an inexpensive combo amp while a 60-piece orchestra was replaced by a quartet and no one talks about a Strat or a Les Paul not being accessible to the unwashed masses. The instrument ceased being a topic of conversation. And that's the fate awaiting those with the Alexas, Weapons and Varicams.
 
DLD said:
So, you're a NIMBY?

What if ARRI came out with a $7,500 camera - let's call it AMIRA II - before you bought one? Would you still be against it?

PS. When I first began posting here, I write that the camera industry is going to the way of the old musical equipment idea. At first, people were showing off their Stradivari, costing tens of thousands if not millions. But, post-WWII, those were replaced by a $150 Telecaster and an inexpensive combo amp while a 60-piece orchestra was replaced by a quartet and no one talks about a Strat or a Les Paul not being accessible to the unwashed masses. The instrument ceased being a topic of conversation. And that's the fate awaiting those with the Alexas, Weapons and Varicams.
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Ah love these musical instrument anologies....... just my cup of tea. Perhaps you might be aware, there have been numerous blind fold tests between old violins Stradivari etc. and modern makers. The modern violins always win the blindfold test.

Something changes in our hearing when the visual gets mixed in with the sense of sound.
 
DLD said:
What if ARRI came out with a $7,500 camera - let's call it AMIRA II - before you bought one? Would you still be against it?
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Yeah. A $7500 camera is just a perhaps $350 rental rate added to your day rate. A $40,000 camera is a perhaps $1200-$1500 rental added to your day rate. I'd much rather make $1200-$1500 per day from a rental than $350 per day from a rental.

Of course if I was not in it as a business and just did it as a profitless hobby, I'd much rather I could get the same results for just $7500.

Camera prices will likely continue to drop, which will make it harder to profit well off of their rentals. There will always be labor rates to profit off of, but rental rates are a way of making additional income on top of labor if you rent out often enough, and more expensive equipment means higher rental rates, and thus more profit. Fortunately most other equipment is not getting that much cheaper, and it will probably still be awhile before the high end of camera prices plummets, as it seems that each new camera these days still has various innovations to keep it relevant and worth the higher prices vs the old models.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
... Camera prices will likely continue to drop, which will make it harder to profit well off of their rentals. There will always be labor rates to profit off of, but rental rates are a way of making additional income on top of labor if you rent out often enough, and more expensive equipment means higher rental rates, and thus more profit. Fortunately most other equipment is not getting that much cheaper, and it will probably still be awhile before the high end of camera prices plummets, as it seems that each new camera these days still has various innovations to keep it relevant and worth the higher prices vs the old models.
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I don't think the daily rate for top session guitar players dropped despite them playing on the same $1,500 Strat (OK, there are some custom made models too). With more 'amateurs" joining the ranks, the difference between them and real pros would be obvious for the clients.

Michael Thames said:
Ah love these musical instrument anologies....... just my cup of tea. Perhaps you might be aware, there have been numerous blind fold tests between old violins Stradivari etc. and modern makers. The modern violins always win the blindfold test.

Something changes in our hearing when the visual gets mixed in with the sense of sound.
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I don't know. I got my Stradivarius on sale at Walmart for $19.99. If I actually knew how to play it, I am sure David Oisyrakh would be jealous.
 
DLD said:
I don't think the daily rate for top session guitar players dropped despite them playing on the same $1,500 Strat (OK, there are some custom made models too). With more 'amateurs" joining the ranks, the difference between them and real pros would be obvious for trhe clients.
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There is no such thing as a Strad guitar he only made violins. ,
I made a copy of Torres La Leona guitar, the guitar made in 1853 that defined the modern guitar as we know it. If you market this to the sheeple they don't know shite from shinelola, but the discriminating conosuer knows the difference like you know the difference in cameras.
 
Some good news ! This afternoon I received en email from the C200 petition administrators- Change.org- who advised that we now have 50 signatories. They added that only 15% of petitions make it this far. So congrats to those who wished to add their voice to the message. To those who have not yet, or are sitting on the fence, it's only a name added to a list. So speak up, join in, and maybe, just maybe, we can convince Canon , come early 2018, that not including 10bit/422 is simply NOT acceptable, nor reasonable.

https://www.change.org/p/canon-c200-do-it-right
 
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Michael Thames said:
There is no such thing as a Strad guitar he only made violins. ,
I made a copy of Torres La Leona guitar, the guitar made in 1853 that defined the modern guitar as we know it. If you market this to the sheeple they don't know shite from shinelola, but the discriminating conosuer knows the difference like you know the difference in cameras.
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Re-read his post. He said "Strat", as in Fender Stratocaster.
 
tenbit said:
Some good news ! This afternoon I received en email from the C200 petition administrators- Change.org- who advised that we now have 50 signatories. They added that only 15% of petitions make it this far. So congrats to those who wished to add their voice to the message. To those who have not yet, or are sitting on the fence, it's only a name added to a list. So speak up, join in, and maybe, just maybe, we can convince Canon , come early 2018, that not including 10bit/422 is simply NOT acceptable.

https://www.change.org/p/canon-c200-do-it-right
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I signed up..... it can't hurt.
 
DLD said:
I don't think the daily rate for top session guitar players dropped despite them playing on the same $1,500 Strat (OK, there are some custom made models too). With more 'amateurs" joining the ranks, the difference between them and real pros would be obvious for the clients.
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Michael Thames said:
There is no such thing as a Strad guitar he only made violins. ,
I made a copy of Torres La Leona guitar, the guitar made in 1853 that defined the modern guitar as we know it. If you market this to the sheeple they don't know shite from shinelola, but the discriminating conosuer knows the difference like you know the difference in cameras.
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Michael Thames said:
Maybe you should re-read what he said.
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He still said STRAT, not STRAD.
 
JPNola said:
Maybe you should brush up on your knowledge of string instruments...



That isn't true. "Strad" made violins, cellos, harps, violas and guitars.



Lovely tonality, don't you agree, Michael?
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I've seen that video a million times, and have blueprints of that guitar. Yes quite beautiful tone, and I believe 5 exist and only one is playable. But for the purposes of this thread I didn't want to introduce more information than was needed to make an analogy. Stradivari was not known for making guitars. Technically speaking this really isn't a guitar, it has 5 double course strings. Besides I stand by the fact Stradivari didnt make electric guitars, and some people here might think he did.
 
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Run&Gun said:
He still said STRAT, not STRAD.
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Well I think we are both right. He first mentioned Stardavari, then in the same sentence mentioned strat. But really who cares! My point was Stadivari didnt make electric guitars... a comparison between Stradivari and Stratocaster electric guitars threw me for a loop.
 
tenbit said:
And now back to originally scheduled programming.. :)

I've been reading some interesting recent reviews / new info re the C200...

It certainly seems that the need for a strong message to Canon, re 422/ 10 bit, is now more relevant and necessary than ever

https://www.change.org/p/canon-c200-do-it-right
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I signed the petition..... but I think the only thing that will make an impact is not to buy one. After we all went nuts over the Raw-lite, then had time to let it settle in, I came to my senses. After Robofist said the Canon rep. avoided answering the question about MacBooks, and iMacs handling the Raw lite workflow that was the nail in the coffin for me. Might as well just use an external recorder for raw if you need it. without 10 bit 422, the C200 is damaged goods. The best thing is to buy a used C300 mkii. That way Canon won't make a dime.... then maybe they will listen.
 
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