Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
There's nothing to stop you from importing a custom LUT, applying it to S-LOG3, and still being able to adjust the paint menus to fine-tune it.
That's not how I use the camera, but it can be done.
CAMCORDERS: Testing the NX800 this Week...
- Thread starter Bassman2003
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That's not how I use the camera, but it can be done.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Thanks Doug. So the menu structure is still active in S-LOG3 mode. Things seem to be disabled when you go into LOG mode in mirrorless cameras. So I thought the same. I am confused on what the base color would be in that scenario. Is there a LUT available from Sony that represents the ITU709 base color?
I am on the fence with this camera. I did not have it long enough to dive into LOG and LUT shooting. In a shoot and edit scenario I am perfectly fine with the core image as I had the look I wanted after 30 seconds with an adjustment filter in my NLE. It is the live streaming use that I want the image control that is a little limited imho. I am looking into adding a LUT in my streaming software which might just solve the "live" shooting adjustments.
I am on the fence with this camera. I did not have it long enough to dive into LOG and LUT shooting. In a shoot and edit scenario I am perfectly fine with the core image as I had the look I wanted after 30 seconds with an adjustment filter in my NLE. It is the live streaming use that I want the image control that is a little limited imho. I am looking into adding a LUT in my streaming software which might just solve the "live" shooting adjustments.
I haven't had my hands on either camera in the title of this thread... but with Sony mirrorless cams, this is very simple to do when using PP's. You can add an auto or manual knee and raise or lower the master black to tweak the ITU709 look and then also save that as a new PP in camera. I would assume a scene file could essentially be done this way.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
You're mixing apples and oranges. He isn't asking about changing the paint menus when you are using an IT709 profile.
He wants to import a S-LOG3 LUT and still have the ability to tweak the paint menus. Most cameras cannot do that, but the Z200/NX800 can.
Thanks Doug. And apologies to Bassman if I'm only making this more confusing.
Now I'm even more intrigued in this new camera... So you are saying, like the good old FS7, which I still use semi-regularly, this camera allows not only to have a "preview" LUT, imported into camera for viewing on VF as well as "baking into" footage, the Z200 will also allow you to treat that LUT essentially like the FS7 worked in "Custom" mode to change options in the paint menus?
Now I'm even more intrigued in this new camera... So you are saying, like the good old FS7, which I still use semi-regularly, this camera allows not only to have a "preview" LUT, imported into camera for viewing on VF as well as "baking into" footage, the Z200 will also allow you to treat that LUT essentially like the FS7 worked in "Custom" mode to change options in the paint menus?
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Yes, that is correct. You can choose S-LOG as your base; apply any imported LUT you want to use; make any paint menu changes you desire on top of that; and then record it internally. Its all covered in my master class.
Bassman2003
Veteran
My actual wish was to be able to import an altered "base look" and apply it. This would allow the user to shoot the camera in "normal" mode (base ISO 250) and have the benefit of the paint menus + customization. But the system is build around LUTs which forces the use of LOG shooting which is kind of pushed on this camera imho. While the setup is a great step forward, I had no intention of using this camera to shoot in LOG. If the base LOG ISO was lower like ISO 800 or less it would be a great way forward.
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Bassman2003
Veteran
BTW, @Doug Jensen do you have an opinion about the viewfinder of the Z200? While plenty sharp I was hoping for more setting controls/gradations for brightness and saturation. Would you think this is an area Sony could update via firmware or is it set in stone?
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Well, I'm afraid I'm in complete disagreement with you about the viewfinder. There's nothing wrong with it at all, and it is almost as good as the Z280's viewfinder. Maybe we use our cameras differently? Personally, I would never judge picture quality, color, exposure, white balance, contrast, or any of that stuff by looking at the picture in viewfinder. That's a fool's errand with any camera. In fact, the viewfinder could be B&W for all I care. The viewfinder is only for composing the shot and focusing. That's it. I don't need to see a prettier picture and I never make any judgments about image quality from any viewfinder on any camera.. But with that said, I don't see any problems with the Z200 viewfinder. And I doubt Sony could change it with a firmware update if they wanted to. And I'm also sure that isn't even on their radar even if they could.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Why is the base ISO so important to you? Isn't the amount of noise what really matters? So, hypothetically speaking, what if you had one camera with a base ISO of 1600 and another with a base ISO of 800, but the noise levels were exactly the same or maybe better on the 1600 camera. Would you still be against it? I just don't see your concern about the camera being too sensitive to light. That's why they camera has plenty of ND built in.
cyvideo
Veteran
But Bassman. That's exactly what you can do. Customisation of looks using LUTs does NOT force you to LOG Mode. You can have your camera in CUSTOM Mode, using Custom ISOs, not LOG and you can introduce a 3D LUT file designed for "S-Gamut3. Cine/SLog3" or "S-Gamut3/S-Log3", which ever one you like the look of and apply THAT LUT's look to your Custom camera setting. Yet STILL RETAIN ALL PAINT MATRIX ADJUSTMENTS. The camera's hardware/firmware will do all the necessary transforms from the S-LOG3 LUT to the 709 color space for you.
It's all explained quite clearly in the "Help Guide - Solid-State Memory Camcorder - PXW-Z200/HXR-NX800" starting on page #143. This is the same procedure as used on the FX6 if you want your favorite LUT looks in Custom Mode.
https://helpguide.sony.net/pro/z200nx800/v1/en/print.pdf
You can import up to 16 3D LUT files, created on a computer or other device, as a base look from a memory card or cloud service.
File format: CUBE file (*.cube) for a 17-grid or 33-grid 3D LUT created using Catalyst Browse or RAW Viewer. My note: Or from any other software that can create compliant .Cube LUTs.
The LUTs must be in one of the following Input color Gamut/Gammas: "S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3" or "S-Gamut3/S-Log3". I suggest the first.
Importing from a memory card
You can import a 3D LUT file from a memory card.
Adjusting for underexposure
If there is a tendency for underexposure when auto exposure is selected when using an imported base look, adjust
[Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [AE Level Offset] in the full menu.
Note
Just importing a 3D LUT file does not affect the image. Load the imported 3D LUT file using [Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [Select] in the
full menu. If [Input] is not set correctly, the proper look will not be obtained.
Format an SD card in slot B on your camera.
On the computer or other device, save the 3D LUT file in the specified folder on the newly formatted memory card. Which is:
1. Memory card Folder path SDXC /PRIVATE/SONY/PRO/LUT/CFexpress Type A /SONY/PRO/LUT/
Insert the memory card on which 3D LUT files are saved into card slot (B).
2. Execute [Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [Import from Media(B)] in the full menu.
3. Select an import destination memory slot.
4. Select your chosen 3D LUT file to import. Follow the on-screen instructions. The unit handles a 3D LUT file as a base look.
5. Select the imported 3D LUT file using [Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [Select] in the full menu.
6. Set [Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [Input] and [Output] in the full menu to match the attributes of the imported 3D
LUT file.
THIS LAST POINT #6 IS IMPORTANT!
In this step #6 you MUST set the correct parameters. If the LUT you are using is an "S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3" LUT the INPUT selection must have S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3 selected, NOT, S-Gamut3/S-Log3 selected. The OUTPUT menu selection should be set to "BT.709 if the LUT you have chosen is a 3D LUT to go from S-LOG3 to 709.
IF you are using Auto Exposure follow the next step may be applicable.
Adjusting for underexposure
If there is a tendency for underexposure when auto exposure is selected when using an imported base look, adjust
[Paint/Look] – [Base Look] – [AE Level Offset] in the full menu.
Now! The pain with the Sony cameras is you cannot save a new unique name to your new file. It just goes to by its original LUT name in the slot #number you selected when importing from the card in slot B. Remember, you can only import from slot B.
If you want to save this new lovely setup FOR A BACKUP you can go to "PROJECT/ALL FILE" and go to "SAVE TO MEDIA". This saves an "All file" settings to a memory card inserted into card slot B.
OPTION TO TEST:
I'm uploading a LUT. I'm not saying you will like this 3D LUT I'm uploading. But go through the above exercise with it and at least you will know the procedure to load any LUT look you like to use in CUSTOM MODE.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lvWF9h4oMOtXR5gZ7qftJ54uZHciN-y4/view?usp=sharing
If you want to try this LUT I've made, I would suggest adding modifying the following Matrix adjustments once the LUT is loaded. Again, you may hate these settings/look, it's based off a hybrid Venice / ARRI look I've "made up". But go through the exercise and see what you think. At least you will know the procedure when you find an S-LOG3 LUT you like.
Go to PAINT/LOOK
Set USER MATRIX to ON
Set USER MATRIX LEVEL TO +10
Set the following three matrix settings as follows.
R-G +10
G-R +10
B-R +10
I set Zebra #2 to 83 IRE for peak whites and Zebra #1 to 60 IRE for skin tones. Suck it and see what you think
Everyone, have a good new 2025!
Chris Young
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Bassman2003
Veteran
Thanks for your replies and willingness to discuss the camera. This is what is great about forums. I respect both of your abilities and opinions.
I must say, this is kind of a confusing situation. We have LUTs, LOG, S-LOG3, menu gammas and matrix settings all getting mashed together. I spoke with Vincent - a Sony tier 3 pro support representative and told him of this scenario and my wishes. He conferred with his associates and told me that you have to shoot in LOG mode to utilize the imported LUTs. But, he also said he was not that familiar with this exact model...
So @cyvideo, from what I understand you are saying is that one is allowed to shoot in S-LOG3 but not particularly in LOG mode? And while in custom mode one can choose a lower ISO than 1600?
I was familiar with that section of the manual and after reading it again I still do not see any reference to LOG shooting or ISO limits. Do you own this camera and use it in this way? I do not have the camera anymore so I wish I knew to test for this when I did. This sounds great but every other camera out there puts S-LOG3 and LOG shooting together. So it is tough to believe at face value!
@Doug Jensen - Why am I concerned with ISO 1600 vs ISO 250? I am most concerned with dynamic range. ISO 250 to 1600 is about 2 1/2 stops. Based upon the graph of a recent Sony 1" chip stills camera, quite a bit is lost from this jump:
Taking away 2+ stops of dynamic range in exchange for the ability to adjust the gamma curve seems like a not so great trade. Yes the noise is controlled but things always look better at the base ISO. But I also know LOG modes yield more dynamic range in most cameras as long as the noise profile allows. My preference was to not shoot my video cameras in LOG but I will if the end result is the best image out of the camera.
I must say, this is kind of a confusing situation. We have LUTs, LOG, S-LOG3, menu gammas and matrix settings all getting mashed together. I spoke with Vincent - a Sony tier 3 pro support representative and told him of this scenario and my wishes. He conferred with his associates and told me that you have to shoot in LOG mode to utilize the imported LUTs. But, he also said he was not that familiar with this exact model...
So @cyvideo, from what I understand you are saying is that one is allowed to shoot in S-LOG3 but not particularly in LOG mode? And while in custom mode one can choose a lower ISO than 1600?
I was familiar with that section of the manual and after reading it again I still do not see any reference to LOG shooting or ISO limits. Do you own this camera and use it in this way? I do not have the camera anymore so I wish I knew to test for this when I did. This sounds great but every other camera out there puts S-LOG3 and LOG shooting together. So it is tough to believe at face value!
@Doug Jensen - Why am I concerned with ISO 1600 vs ISO 250? I am most concerned with dynamic range. ISO 250 to 1600 is about 2 1/2 stops. Based upon the graph of a recent Sony 1" chip stills camera, quite a bit is lost from this jump:
Taking away 2+ stops of dynamic range in exchange for the ability to adjust the gamma curve seems like a not so great trade. Yes the noise is controlled but things always look better at the base ISO. But I also know LOG modes yield more dynamic range in most cameras as long as the noise profile allows. My preference was to not shoot my video cameras in LOG but I will if the end result is the best image out of the camera.
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cyvideo
Veteran
To start with, Bassman. No, I don't use either a Z200 or NX800, but have a colleague who has a Z200 and is using the exact procedure outlined above. If you look at the two extracts below from both the camera manuals, the Z200/NX800 and the FX6, they are almost word for word on the procedures for using 3D LUTs in Custom Mode on both cameras. Probably far better than me trying to fumble my way through outlining the procedure, have a look at Alister Chapman's fairly clear step by step explanation of how LUTs in Custom Mode works. I've used the procedure in the FX6 and as Alister points out in the video it is a pretty unique application of using LUTs in Custom 709... OR even HLG Mode.Thanks for your replies and willingness to discuss the camera. This is what is great about forums. I respect both of your abilities and opinions.
I must say, this is kind of a confusing situation. We have LUTs, LOG, S-LOG3, menu gammas and matrix settings all getting mashed together. I spoke with Vincent - a Sony tier 3 pro support representative and told him of this scenario and my wishes. He conferred with his associates and told me that you have to shoot in LOG mode to utilize the imported LUTs. But, he also said he was not that familiar with this exact model...
So @cyvideo, from what I understand you are saying is that one is allowed to shoot in S-LOG3 but not particularly in LOG mode? And while in custom mode one can choose a lower ISO than 1600?
I was familiar with that section of the manual and after reading it again I still do not see any reference to LOG shooting or ISO limits. Do you own this camera and use it in this way? I do not have the camera anymore so I wish I knew to test for this when I did. This sounds great but every other camera out there puts S-LOG3 and LOG shooting together. So it is tough to believe at face value!
@Doug Jensen - Why am I concerned with ISO 1600 vs ISO 250? I am most concerned with dynamic range. ISO 250 to 1600 is about 2 1/2 stops. Based upon the graph of a recent Sony 1" chip stills camera, quite a bit is lost from this jump:
View attachment 5712441Taking away 2+ stops of dynamic range in exchange for the ability to adjust the gamma curve seems like a not so great trade. Yes the noise is controlled but things always look better at the base ISO. But I also know LOG modes yield more dynamic range in most cameras as long as the noise profile allows. My preference was to not shoot my video cameras in LOG but I will if the end result is the best image out of the camera.
Chris Young
Attachments
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
He's wrong.
Not only is it possible, it is not confusing nor difficult. It is very straight forward and takes about 60 seconds to configure the camera. Personally, I would never use the camera that way myself because there are absolutely far better ways to configure the camera, but if someone wants to do it, it is possible. It's all covered in my master class.
You've been told by three reliable sources (Doug, Chris, Alister) that it is possible. You should accept it and move on.
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Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Did you test dynamic range on the NX800 when you had it? If not, then you don't really know, do you?
If I understand this chart correctly, they are taking a ZV-1 and pushing it from ISO 100 to 12800. And the dynamic range drops as a result, Is that right? Well, the base ISO of the Z200/NX800 for S-LOG3 is 1600, not 100. So I don't know how you could say that at ISO 1600 the camera has less dynamic range. Less than what? 1600 is the base. It's impossible to go below 1600 when shooting with LOG, so therefore, its impossible to say that 1600 has less dynamic range than lower ISOs. Because lower ISOs are impossible.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I would have chimed in on your first post and given you some advice when you had the camera, but I was banned at the time. And that is the ironic thing about banning members that might have something meaningful to add to the conversation that could help someone else. Seems me getting banned may have hurt you more than me. Great way to run a forum.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Thank you very much Chris. It is exactly having your cake and eating it too!
Bassman2003
Veteran
Thank you Doug. I am not being difficult, just trying to thoroughly understand what is going on inside the camera. I appreciate your knowledge and also respect your business of creating educational videos on the same topic. I try not to expect you to give the same information that is in your videos.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I did not test the DR and do not have that capability. I would love to see a test to be able to understand a bit more. I would like to see the DR comparison between base ISO 250 and base ISO 1600. Does moving the base strain the imaging sensor just like increasing the numbers above the base? (noise and fidelity). I might possibly be concerned about something that is not a reality due to my ignorance. It is only a $4000 camera and it will have its limitations. Just trying to find them as this is a big upgrade for me.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I don't let myself get caught up in numbers, specifications, or differences that may only appear on paper. What matters to me is how a camera performs in the real world. Can I go out and get great images with minimal hassle, and do I actually enjoy using the camera? If the answer to those questions is yes, then the camera gets my approval regardless of what specifications someone (even those of the manufacturer) claims that it has or doesn't have. In the case of the Z200, it more than exceeds my expectations. Although I used my FX6 to shoot my on-camera segments for my Z200 master class, other than that, the Z200 is the only camera I've used since I received it in September. All my other cameras, including the FX6, FS7, F55, Z280, etc. have sat in their cases. No YouTube influencer trying to get clicks, or any other equally dubious source of information is going to convince me to change my opinion that was formed from my own hands-on experience.