T4i- affordable Digic 5 DSLR?

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dishan

Well-known member
If it stands to reason that the rebel line is updated annually around Feb-April (t1i, t2i, t3i, etc), should we expect to see a T4i announced in the next few months?
Bigger question is, if they are starting to roll out the new Digic V chip in cameras (point and shoot already has them, and of course new DSLRs like the 1Dx), could a T4i be the first affordable canon DSLR for video without moire?

I know a lot of people have mentioned a 7DmII or a new 5D should be announced soon with the Digic V, but since the 1Dx already broke the ice, would they really go back to the Digic 4 if a new rebel is released?

Just thinking out loud here.
 
yes, I'd expect the T4i to be announced in 2012Q1, and yes, it should sport a Digic V processor; but I'm afraid Canon may think 422 codecs are for >$5000 products and only include 4:2:0 H.264 at 24Mbps; and I think getting rid of moire requires a faster sensor, not just a faster processor, and T4i could have the same 18Mpix chip from T2i-T3i-60D-7D, with just updated Digic capabilities, so, better encoding (smaller files for same image quality) but still the same old aliasing/moire; if it uses subsampling instead of line skipping, it should have greatly reduced aliasing/moire, and clean ISO 3200 in video (because of noise averaging), which would make it a killer camera at $800 even with 4:2:0 H.264 at 24Mbps; we'll see...
 
I would say with Canon you never know. They used a divic 3 on their best camera to date the new c300. Of course we know the reason behind it. it would seem logical they would, but who knows.
 
if i'm not mistaken, 1dx will be released at the end of Q1 2012, and it will have dual digic 5 and a digic 4.

5d is an in between relaese, i don't think they would release there flagship camera with a 5d.

so it could be a year or two before another 5d comes up. and having the same processor does not mean it will have the same capabilities, even in video mode.
 
NormanBates said:
...and I think getting rid of moire requires a faster sensor, not just a faster processor...
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Sensor speed is not an issue. Sampling the sensor can be as fast as current can move across the chip. a1ex suggested that if the APS-C cams had a bigger buffer we could get 150 mbit/sec out of them. It's all in the ability to process the data that can be aquired from the chip. It's one of the reasons the GH2 is so good. It has three processors.

Cheers,
Pete
 
maranfilms said:
I would say with Canon you never know. They used a divic 3 on their best camera to date the new c300. Of course we know the reason behind it. it would seem logical they would, but who knows.
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There is a difference between a Digic 3 and a Digic DV 3 which is in the new c300.
 
BTW- the Xt to the XTi to the XSi were all two years apart, its only in recent years they switched to yearly.

It would make more sense for the processor to appear in a 5d mark 3 or a 7d mark 2 before the rebel, but you never know! Companies do strange things sometimes.
 
the digic 5 is already being sold in the SX40 and the S100 - but yes it would make more sense to see the new SENSOR in a 7D2, and in the meantime have the T4i use the same old 18mpix sensor, but with a digic 5 processor (or, as as J Davis said, just delay the T4i, and move to a slower cycle such as the 18-month one from the old era or at Nikon) - also, the 1DX uses dual digic 5+ for processing, and I'm not sure how digic 5+ differs from digic 5 (my guess is that it's just a frequency issue: the chips that can run fastest are picked to work in the most expensive camera)
 
From memory - I think the swivel LCD first appeared on the t3i before the 60d. ITs not much of a correlation but it also shows that features can appear on lesser models before more advanced models
 
I remember reading that the Digic V+ is built around a video core, not sure about the Digic V.

But after the 1Dx I would expect any improvement in sensor / processor to happen in a 5D replacement than a 600D which is way down the product line.

Dave
 
NormanBates said:
yes, I'd expect the T4i to be announced in 2012Q1, and yes, it should sport a Digic V processor; but I'm afraid Canon may think 422 codecs are for >$5000 products and only include 4:2:0 H.264 at 24Mbps; and I think getting rid of moire requires a faster sensor, not just a faster processor, and T4i could have the same 18Mpix chip from T2i-T3i-60D-7D, with just updated Digic capabilities, so, better encoding (smaller files for same image quality) but still the same old aliasing/moire; if it uses subsampling instead of line skipping, it should have greatly reduced aliasing/moire, and clean ISO 3200 in video (because of noise averaging), which would make it a killer camera at $800 even with 4:2:0 H.264 at 24Mbps; we'll see...
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I'm under the impression that the moire problems are caused by the way Canon chose to sample data from the sensor, not the actual sensor itself.
If I understand correctly, Canon's video encoder was skipping entire lines and rows off the 18mpix sensor to pull somewhere near 720p of pixel data, then taking the resulting data and scaling it up to 1080p to encode in H.264. I could be wrong about this, I'm basing it on technical discussions that have taken place around here. If true and taking all that into consideration, its something of a wonder we are able to achieve any kind of clean looking video at all.

Meanwhile, the method and format of encoding video appears to be standard across all Digic 4 chips. Canon advertised the Digic 4 chip as "being capable of H.264 1080p video encoding", implying the routines and functions are a feature of the chipset. It would explain why all DSLR options using that chip had the same colorspace, format, bitrate, and artifact problems (moire/aliasing, etc). Even the 7D and 1DSmIV which had dual chips - one might assume that the additional processor could allow higher quality encoding on the fly. Since it did not, it would appear to be a limitation of how the chip operates in a standard fashion across multiple devices.

So, in a nutshell, it looks like Canon has some sort of habit of keeping features standard across chipsets. I'm under the impression that the T2i's video features exist and are comparable with more expensive models simply because Canon was not going to go out of their way to cripple the feature set trickling down from other Digic4 cameras. The features appear to follow the chipset.

Now, according to Wikipedia, there is a difference between the Digic 5 and the Digic 5+ being used in the 1Dx. I don't yet know what the "+" entails, but perhaps it will be reserved for the more expensive models and include higher end codecs like 4:2:2. Meanwhile, one of the benefits being advertised of the Digic 5 is the improved resolved video resolution, working by resampling the entire sensor instead of line skipping and upscaling. This alone should theoretically bring the quality of lower end Canon DSLRs up to par with cameras like the GH2, yielding a higher resolution image that is virtually moire-free. The effects of this can already be seen on point and shoot cameras sporting the new Digic 5. There is no reason to think a Rebel or other lower end DSLR from Canon would be any different.

J Davis said:
BTW- the Xt to the XTi to the XSi were all two years apart, its only in recent years they switched to yearly.

It would make more sense for the processor to appear in a 5d mark 3 or a 7d mark 2 before the rebel, but you never know! Companies do strange things sometimes.
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Indeed they do. I don't think they would go back to Digic4 on a new camera release- Companies like Canon like to mass produce everything, it keeps their production costs lower. Putting everything on their newest mass-production chip is the most cost effective way to run their business. Heck, even the point and shoot models are on the 5.

Now the question is, will Canon hold off on a new Rebel camera so that the 5D and 7D can get it first?

Amr Rahmy said:
if i'm not mistaken, 1dx will be released at the end of Q1 2012, and it will have dual digic 5 and a digic 4.
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According to their press releases, the 1Dx will have dual 5+ chips as well as a dedicated Digic 4 chip for AE and AF only. So it will essentially be a 3 processor camera? Nice. But AE and AF are not features utilized in video mode much anyway.
At first, I found it curious that Canon would use a Digic 4 chip, when by all means I would expect them to be shutting down the Digic 4 production line (refer back to my argument regarding cost effective manufacturing). But then I remembered hearing that the previous dual-chip cameras (7D, 1D) were able to achieve their lightning fast focus by dedicating one of the digic4 chips to it. Perhaps it is possible that they are reusing the AE and AF system from previous dual-core designs, which were built around a Digic4 chip and was fast enough for the job. Again, this is all just a theory of mine, I don't know for certain. Especially since I am not so involved in the photography side of these cameras anyway.

But the bottom line here is that it is not so crazy to assume that the next Rebel will already sport a Digic 5, and sport artifact-free video reminiscent of the GH2. Remember, even the point and shoot cameras like the s100 are capable of producing what appears to be moire free video (see link above). Do you really think Canon would hold back this technology on their DSLR line?

The only thing I can think of, is perhaps they'll stop their 1 rebel per year release schedule, and delay it long enough to release some other cameras first.

But then again, maybe they won't. Folks thought the 7D would get updated with video features like manual audio and metering like the 5D did. But turns out the 60D and T3i came out with better video-centric features, and still no word on a 7D update. This seems weird to us who are here for video, but not necessarily from a photography point of view. Remember, Canon doesn't release these cameras with video functions in mind. The 7D and 5D are still excellent stills cameras, and have features that make them far more desirable than the more affordable models.
They would still be considered better still cameras than a T4i with a Digic 5, and that's really all Canon is concerned about here. I think it is really only us video folk that are so excited about the Digic 5.
 
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60D was out to the market before T3i. You never know what Canon has in their sleeve. T3i has the 3X crop zoom mode which makes zooming which gives extra power to standard zoom lens. 60D doesn't have that feature.
 
Taky said:
60D was out to the market before T3i. You never know what Canon has in their sleeve. T3i has the 3X crop zoom mode which makes zooming which gives extra power to standard zoom lens. 60D doesn't have that feature.
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Exactly, I think its quite clear that Canon doesn't market these devices in chronological order of features. The price hierarchy is in order of class- hence why the 5D is more expensive and still considered higher end than the T3i, even though the t3i has more features. The full frame sensor of the 5D puts it in a different class, and from a photography point of view that still trumps some video-centric "bells and whistles" like a flip out display.
 
It is clear 5D is always market as professional line. 7D and 60D some what classify as mid-range and 600D/T3i is entry level products. But it will be obvious 60D successor will have the 3X crop zoom feature.
 
If the new Rebel is the next camera they release, I wouldn't bet on it having the much improved video features of the 1Dx. My guess is we will see a slightly incremental update, perhaps with some more consumer oriented/marketing upgrades (more MP, higher ISO, better video AF, etc), and the Digic V+ will trickle down first to the 5dmkIII, then to the lower models in the following years cycle.

All just my opinion though, and as was said earlier, sometimes companies do crazy things!
 
ok, so we all aggree that canon is probably not going back to digic 4, so all future products should be digic 5 (or 5+)

from there on, there are three scenarios:
* digic 5 gets rid of aliasing/moire; T4i released according to year schedule in 2012Q1
* digic 5 gets rid of aliasing/moire; T4i witheld until higher-end models are released later in the year
* digic 5 is not enough to get rid of aliasing/moire unless you also update the sensor; T4i mostly irrelevant for video, no matter when it is released

(in all cases, canon will probably cripple the thing by not including the 4:2:2 codec; even without that, it could be a very compelling video DSLR)

I'm not sure which one I'd bet my chips on; we'll see...
 
NormanBates said:
* digic 5 is not enough to get rid of aliasing/moire unless you also update the sensor; T4i mostly irrelevant for video, no matter when it is released
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But we have already seen that it does. The examples of video taken with the point and shoot Canons sporting the new chip seem to be very clean and moire-free. See that link I posted previously. I'm not sure what argument there is to reason that the sensor needs any change at all.

Which is another reason I can't see Canon holding off too long on this- the el cheapo P&S cameras already have cleaner moire free video.
(in all cases, canon will probably cripple the thing by not including the 4:2:2 codec; even without that, it could be a very compelling video DSLR)
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Eh, I wouldn't consider it crippling. People switched to the GH2 just to get away from the line skipping problem that causes our moire. I considered a GH2 myself, however I appreciate the photography side of Canon and some of my Canon native glass as well. The color space could be better, sure, but I just want a native Canon camera that is at least as good as the GH2 in video. I think a Rebel with a Digic 5 could be just that, and would love for this to be true!
 
M. Gilden said:
...Eh, I wouldn't consider it crippling. People switched to the GH2 just to get away from the line skipping problem that causes our moire. I considered a GH2 myself, however I appreciate the photography side of Canon and some of my Canon native glass as well. The color space could be better, sure, but I just want a native Canon camera that is at least as good as the GH2 in video. I think a Rebel with a Digic 5 could be just that, and would love for this to be true!
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+1

I'm affraid part of the appeal of the Canon DSLR video "image" is how it's processed. Keeping what makes the Canon's so appealing with higher resolving power and eliminating moire and aliasing might be more difficult than we think.

Cheers,
Pete
 
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