FEATURE: STEP OFF (was "Battle") - Narrative Feature

Marlon Ladd said:
It definitely doesn't look like the African-American market is very big when you look at the population numbers here. I also feel like black people have been and will continue to be underepresented on TV and in film partly for that reason. For black artists, whether it be music or film or anything, there has always been this need felt to have to "cross over" appeal in order to be successful. Think about in the 1950s and 1960s for instance when record companies would sometimes put out record covers without the actual "black" artists on them so that they would sell more. Did it work? Yep. Was it right? No, but yes for the companies that made the money. The attitude for a long time has been that if you can "cross over" and sell to a white audience, then other audiences will surely follow, including the black audience. I've found that it's actually been true in most situations. If you're an indie filmmaker, you always have to think about who your audience might be and what might appeal to people. I'm always conscious of that with my films and I have often felt that I needed to make a film that would attract people outside the black audience. With the numbers, it only makes sense to try and do it that way. If you had a group of 20 men and 2 women, for instance, and you had a product that you wanted to be successful, who are you going to cater too? The men. That's one way of looking at it and one that's hard to ignore. However, there is also another way that seems to fuel my direction even more that represents the real indie filmmaker in me. That is to make a great film above all else. I think if you can truly achieve that, the genre and audience will not matter as much, because everybody loves great films. The hardest part is making one though.
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I think it's okay to make all types of movies. Luckily for me I want to make more crossover type movies anyway. Like the Original Matrix movies were supposed to have almost an all black cast. When you watch the movies it's evident. The original person desired for Neo was Will Smith not Keanu Reeves which probably would have made Trinity black as well. Do you think Matrix would have been less of a success? I don't think so. why? Subject matter. It's like when you watch a Chinese Martial Arts Film, the only issue is the language.

Marlon you've already done well I mean who doesn't like Zombies. That's part of what I'm drawing attention to here. No matter what type of movie, you can expand the scope or show it from a more global position. Going back to Grey's Anatomy which has more Black Characters than the average TV show and what's better the black characters aren't the "All in ones" or "tokens" where they say "We need a fat girl who wears glasses. Oh yeah, she can be black too. Cool three in one." or the character to get teh show started but is off the show in 1 or 2 seasons. Going global may mean you have less black characters, but you have more control over them and what they are about.

But it's also importaint to note you can always do smaller black films. (Not to fully hijack your thread Martin) I always told myself even if the movies weren't profitable I always wanted to make sure that a certain amount of good movies were made every year regardless. So in my "mental business plan" it has always included a few minority projects to be made as time goes on. Many great stars before for you followed this practice. I'm not going to list here, but think of those who did a "black movie" then turned around and did a "crossover" and kept that cycle going throughout their career.
 
jls4 said:
I think it's okay to make all types of movies. Luckily for me I want to make more crossover type movies anyway. Like the Original Matrix movies were supposed to have almost an all black cast. When you watch the movies it's evident. The original person desired for Neo was Will Smith not Keanu Reeves which probably would have made Trinity black as well. Do you think Matrix would have been less of a success? I don't think so. why? Subject matter. It's like when you watch a Chinese Martial Arts Film, the only issue is the language.

Marlon you've already done well I mean who doesn't like Zombies. That's part of what I'm drawing attention to here. No matter what type of movie, you can expand the scope or show it from a more global position. Going back to Grey's Anatomy which has more Black Characters than the average TV show and what's better the black characters aren't the "All in ones" or "tokens" where they say "We need a fat girl who wears glasses. Oh yeah, she can be black too. Cool three in one." or the character to get teh show started but is off the show in 1 or 2 seasons. Going global may mean you have less black characters, but you have more control over them and what they are about.

But it's also importaint to note you can always do smaller black films. (Not to fully hijack your thread Martin) I always told myself even if the movies weren't profitable I always wanted to make sure that a certain amount of good movies were made every year regardless. So in my "mental business plan" it has always included a few minority projects to be made as time goes on. Many great stars before for you followed this practice. I'm not going to list here, but think of those who did a "black movie" then turned around and did a "crossover" and kept that cycle going throughout their career.
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That's another thing I was thinking about. We have to get away from feeling something is a "black" movie. It's unfortunate that our society looks at films with predominately African-American casts as "black films," but the opposite is not true of other types of films I don't think. Like you don't hear people say, "It's a white film." I think if the movie really has good production value and a good story, it'll be a good film and people will see it that way. I think you can have a film that will really resonate with a black audience, but still have that appeal to everyone. I look at Ice Cube's movie, "Friday" as an example. That film really hit home with the black audience, but it was so good, funny and original that it crossed boundaries, and everybody loved it. I think we have to get our stories out there, but with better presentation. I was thinking about Maverick when I read the earlier post and to be honest, I do not like that company. I'll admit that they have done better about distributing higher production valued films, but I have seen them flood the market with flat-out terrible urban/black movies for years (and I mean years). That to me surely has not helped the perception of urban films. I have seen some of their films that had bad audio, bad acting, bad cinematography, bad music and a bad story all rolled up into one. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched some of their less than professional films and they are one of the biggest, if not the biggest urban film DVD distributor. I say all that to say that a love story is still a love story no matter the ethnicity. The culturalism of the film might even add to the film's worth. If it's good, people will watch it, but the hurdle is getting people to trust it first - meaning taking a chance to go see it or rent it. I look at "Step Off" and see what I'm referring to. It's a story about a music producer, but I think the bigger story is that it's a coming of age thing. A guy has talent and is trying to make his way, but has many hurdles to overcome. On the level, the story is basic, but look closer and we see other things that make it different and interesting. The guy is a music producer and a college student. I can't remember a film ever being done about a music producer like this. So, with all the elements we have a big story. The main character just happens to be black, his GF happens to be black and the music happens to be Hip-Hop.

And thanks, BTW. I haven't done well yet, but when I'm done I hope to. :thumbup:
 
Marlon Ladd said:
That's another thing I was thinking about. We have to get away from feeling something is a "black" movie. It's unfortunate that our society looks at films with predominately African-American casts as "black films," but the opposite is not true of other types of films I don't think. Like you don't hear people say, "It's a white film." I think if the movie really has good production value and a good story, it'll be a good film and people will see it that way. I think you can have a film that will really resonate with a black audience, but still have that appeal to everyone. I look at Ice Cube's movie, "Friday" as an example. That film really hit home with the black audience, but it was so good, funny and original that it crossed boundaries, and everybody loved it. I think we have to get our stories out there, but with better presentation. I was thinking about Maverick when I read the earlier post and to be honest, I do not like that company. I'll admit that they have done better about distributing higher production valued films, but I have seen them flood the market with flat-out terrible urban/black movies for years (and I mean years). That to me surely has not helped the perception of urban films. I have seen some of their films that had bad audio, bad acting, bad cinematography, bad music and a bad story all rolled up into one. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched some of their less than professional films and they are one of the biggest, if not the biggest urban film DVD distributor. I say all that to say that a love story is still a love story no matter the ethnicity. The culturalism of the film might even add to the film's worth. If it's good, people will watch it, but the hurdle is getting people to trust it first - meaning taking a chance to go see it or rent it. I look at "Step Off" and see what I'm referring to. It's a story about a music producer, but I think the bigger story is that it's a coming of age thing. A guy has talent and is trying to make his way, but has many hurdles to overcome. On the level, the story is basic, but look closer and we see other things that make it different and interesting. The guy is a music producer and a college student. I can't remember a film ever being done about a music producer like this. So, with all the elements we have a big story. The main character just happens to be black, his GF happens to be black and the music happens to be Hip-Hop.

And thanks, BTW. I haven't done well yet, but when I'm done I hope to. :thumbup:
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I agree mostly (have to watch what I agree too, remember some of this can bite you later. LOL) But mainly Black Films need to see the box and see that they are bumping their own head against the ceiling, it's not the "*****" man doing that to us. LOL Then once you see the box you can get out of it. Like him or hate him Tyler Perry HAS done that to some degree. One of the people I'm working with now is trying to do some of that as well. And once I get to where I'm going, I see the box, understand the box and plan to crush the box.

I've been talking with Martin ("Step Off"'s Producer) on destroying this box for over 3 years now. Just a little money and time and bye bye box. LOL
 
jls4 said:
I've been talking with Martin ("Step Off"'s Producer) on destroying this box for over 3 years now. Just a little money and time and bye bye box. LOL
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Marlon, thanks for the comments about "Step Off". I'm glad it comes across as universal as that is completely the intention. And you'll hear us say it over and over if you happen to catch our press.

The reason I brought up Urban as a market is strictly to address it as being an asset when it comes to our particular situation. It was a conscious decision to position it that way. It's just an example of how important PROOF of AUDIENCE is in terms of distribution.

We've made a movie that can be thought of as an Urban movie. Heck Lionsgate made sure that it looks like several successful urban movies. However, the movie itself is just a movie to us in terms of the storytelling.

My writing/producing partner on Step Off and I have ALWAYS wanted to break the boxes whenever possible. We've always tried to bring a "universal cast" (we coined this term early on, hasn't caught on just yet) to our scripts, etc.

However, it is our business decision to position ourselves in the "so called" urban market. We feel like we have to create a brand and that our brand will be known for bringing strong movies with good stories to a market that isn't used to many of that nature.

I'm glad JLS4 brings up our discussions because we have been saying that we're going to break this box open...and films like yours Marlon are going to help. Your movie seems like it's on the path to be a really fun Zombie Flick and the fact that the leads are African American...great! That's helping break the box that "urban" movies have been in for so long.

I mean, hopefully people notice that Step Off has a diverse cast despite being a film with decidedly "Hip-Hop" sensibilities. To me, Hip-Hop is universal and should be presented as such whenever possible.

JLS4 is doing big things, and we'll be collaborating fairly soon on some stuff that will hopefully raise both our games...but he'll be doing his thing and I'll be doing mine as well and along with like-minded folks like you and many others, the "so called" urban film will have less stigma than it has had in the past.

And don't sweat hijacking the thread. I've been wanting serious discussion on the thread and am thankful that folks are bringing it.

Later,

Martin
 
It's funny that I've come into contact with you guys, because you're both from the ATL. I had actually thought about moving there about a year and a half ago. Glad to see some indie filmmakers out there making it happen. You guys seem to be on the same page as me. Getting out of the box as you say is so important and paramount. There are lots of people that love Tyler Perry's films and people that can't stand them. Like his films or not, he deserves so much respect for what he has been able to do and in such a short time. To be able to finance his own films and to have his own studio is bigtime. These are thing that I felt like people like Denzel should have been doing a long time ago. It also seems that now he's adding some versatility to his craft. I really enjoyed "For Colored Girls" and thought it was a great film. I have no idea why it hasn't received critical acclaim, but surely should in my opinion.

You guys keep riding that wave and hopefully one day I'll be right there next to you, and we can all make some history.
 
Wow...finally caught up on this conversation and this is EXACTLY why I asked you that about why you did an Urban movie. This conversation is AMAZING because it is EXACTLY the convo I have every day with people. As a young black aspiring filmmaker, I struggle with the fact that Tyler Perry and Spike Lee are our main representation. People hear "I want to do movies" and they say "oohhh you wanna be the next Tyler Perry!" Which could not be FURTHER from the truth. I'm not a fan of TP's movies, I'm not afraid to say it..I will watch some of them, I'll even laugh at SOME of the jokes. But for the most part, I'm not a "fan". I don't like the way they portray the average african american male. And I hate that that's our main representation to the world because foreign people automatically assume that's who we actually are.

I don't want to be the next "Spike Lee" either because he has gained the representation of being "anti-white" which couldn't be further from myself as well. I tell people there's a huge, mostly undiscovered GRAY AREA that is brewing and THAT is where I want to be. Somewhere in the middle, as a guy who does movies, that happens to be black (IF you must know my race).

I find the stigma of our movies are the same as the ones of our culture period. First of all, we have gained the stereotype of LAZY/half assers/short cut takers/do enough just to get by etc. That translates to film when so many of our movies over the years came out with production that was half assed, lazy, cheap and almost highway robbery to the people that were supporting black cinema.

Second, society thinks we (along with maybe italians) glorify gangsters/criminals/thugs/negativity etc. Most of our most popular athletes the last few years came off as "thugs" or law breakers. Most shows like "The First 48", Judge Mathis, Judge Joe Brown etc show us as petty criminals who fight and kill over pairs of sneakers etc. Do we really even need to discuss our musical representation? And just being honest, from day to day, it seems BECAUSE we are such a small portion of society, and usually all pushed together in the lower level housing...it SEEMS as though we embrace ignorance and are willing to stay right where we are at the bottom of the food chain with no desire to advance - That's to people from the outside looking in. So when they see a movie with a thug in the trailer, they say.."oh that's speaking to that demographic that not only do I not understand, but that I know is so dumbed down, I wouldn't want to waste brain cells or MONEY to watch".

We've gained the reputation from the outside looking in, as a bunch of people who don't WANT to be viewed universally, people think we only want "Black themes" in our "black movies". Movies like "The Hangover" "Superbad" aren't considered white movies, just movies. And if they had all black casts, probably would've been half as successful do to the perception: Black cast = baby momma/white folk/unemployment jokes. Or cheap laughs that ONLY black people find funny.

Add to the fact that most successful "black films" get the label "black" dropped. Brooklyn's Finest, American Gangster, Friday, Save The Last Dance, just to name a few. They go from being "black" movies with high production value, to movies period. Which to me says "hey, it's entirely possible for me to accept you in Hollywood if you stop using the excuse of "I'm black so I can't win any major awards, and start saying hey, let me not put the "black BEFORE the film maker, let me put FILM MAKER FIRST".

I think we all will be successful, I honestly do, this is the SAME thing that happened in HIP HOP a few years back, when for a long time there was nothing but gangster rap and that's all people thought we wanted to hear, then out of "no where" guys like Kanye West come knocking the walls down. Why? Simply because there is a LARGE, LARGE untapped portion of black society just ANXIOUS to find someone in entertainment that represents them. They're not thugs, they're not lazy, they're not gangsters, they don't perpetuate violence, drugs, pimps etc. They're just regular people who live regular lives and oh, happen to have black skin. Look how quickly people accepted "Skinny" jeans, or nice "fitting clothing as apposed to clothes that were 4 sizes too big"...look how EASILY Lupe Fiasco found acceptance with a song called "Kick, Push" a SKATEBOARD song..had this been 1996 he might have quite literally been killed for trying to put that song out.

I think black society is itching for a change in representation, and cinema is the last person on board the train over unescapable evolution, we're lucky enough to be doing movies at the right time in my opinion. Hell, read Ebert's review of "I Will Follow" - "I wouldn't even mention the fact that the film makers were black, if not for the fact that I feel like they finally got it right, yea we're black, but we're doing a diverse cast with a universal theme".

That's just it..we need to do UNIVERSAL THEMES/CAST and not turn them black...we need to do movies where the people don't acknowledge "oh hey homeboy I'm black".."white movies" don't make "black jokes" or "thank God we're white" comments. You don't see in a movie like WALL-STREET the main character going "Wall-street, man if I was a n*gga they prolly wouldn't even let me on this block"....but in black movies 9 times outta 10 there's several "black only" jokes, that alienate other viewers etc.

I'm doing something hopefully similar, where I'm trying to start out with more universal movies first and then when I gain the trust of an audience as a quality film maker, then I'll open up and show them "hey I can do "our" story and not make you feel alienated when you're in the theater watching it". Hell I'm more of a zombie fan than I am a fan of gangs or thugs..hence my first film being titled "Blood Thirsty".

This might be my longest rant in history and thanks to ANYONE willing to read it, sorry I jumped around so much but it was just refreshing to see film makers describe the urge to break down that stereotypical box and do movies that EVERYONE can enjoy no matter the color of their skin...I literally have this talk everyday and sometimes I feel so alone!!!

I too was thinking of making the move from NC to ATL, maybe one day we'll all be on a panel together discussing how we broke down the wall and opened the flood gates to universal acceptance to black skin in cinema!
 
Reading this made my day. More power to you, friend...

CRProductions said:
Wow...finally caught up on this conversation and this is EXACTLY why I asked you that about why you did an Urban movie. This conversation is AMAZING because it is EXACTLY the convo I have every day with people. As a young black aspiring filmmaker, I struggle with the fact that Tyler Perry and Spike Lee are our main representation. People hear "I want to do movies" and they say "oohhh you wanna be the next Tyler Perry!" Which could not be FURTHER from the truth. I'm not a fan of TP's movies, I'm not afraid to say it..I will watch some of them, I'll even laugh at SOME of the jokes. But for the most part, I'm not a "fan". I don't like the way they portray the average african american male. And I hate that that's our main representation to the world because foreign people automatically assume that's who we actually are.

I don't want to be the next "Spike Lee" either because he has gained the representation of being "anti-white" which couldn't be further from myself as well. I tell people there's a huge, mostly undiscovered GRAY AREA that is brewing and THAT is where I want to be. Somewhere in the middle, as a guy who does movies, that happens to be black (IF you must know my race).

I find the stigma of our movies are the same as the ones of our culture period. First of all, we have gained the stereotype of LAZY/half assers/short cut takers/do enough just to get by etc. That translates to film when so many of our movies over the years came out with production that was half assed, lazy, cheap and almost highway robbery to the people that were supporting black cinema.

Second, society thinks we (along with maybe italians) glorify gangsters/criminals/thugs/negativity etc. Most of our most popular athletes the last few years came off as "thugs" or law breakers. Most shows like "The First 48", Judge Mathis, Judge Joe Brown etc show us as petty criminals who fight and kill over pairs of sneakers etc. Do we really even need to discuss our musical representation? And just being honest, from day to day, it seems BECAUSE we are such a small portion of society, and usually all pushed together in the lower level housing...it SEEMS as though we embrace ignorance and are willing to stay right where we are at the bottom of the food chain with no desire to advance - That's to people from the outside looking in. So when they see a movie with a thug in the trailer, they say.."oh that's speaking to that demographic that not only do I not understand, but that I know is so dumbed down, I wouldn't want to waste brain cells or MONEY to watch".

We've gained the reputation from the outside looking in, as a bunch of people who don't WANT to be viewed universally, people think we only want "Black themes" in our "black movies". Movies like "The Hangover" "Superbad" aren't considered white movies, just movies. And if they had all black casts, probably would've been half as successful do to the perception: Black cast = baby momma/white folk/unemployment jokes. Or cheap laughs that ONLY black people find funny.

Add to the fact that most successful "black films" get the label "black" dropped. Brooklyn's Finest, American Gangster, Friday, Save The Last Dance, just to name a few. They go from being "black" movies with high production value, to movies period. Which to me says "hey, it's entirely possible for me to accept you in Hollywood if you stop using the excuse of "I'm black so I can't win any major awards, and start saying hey, let me not put the "black BEFORE the film maker, let me put FILM MAKER FIRST".

I think we all will be successful, I honestly do, this is the SAME thing that happened in HIP HOP a few years back, when for a long time there was nothing but gangster rap and that's all people thought we wanted to hear, then out of "no where" guys like Kanye West come knocking the walls down. Why? Simply because there is a LARGE, LARGE untapped portion of black society just ANXIOUS to find someone in entertainment that represents them. They're not thugs, they're not lazy, they're not gangsters, they don't perpetuate violence, drugs, pimps etc. They're just regular people who live regular lives and oh, happen to have black skin. Look how quickly people accepted "Skinny" jeans, or nice "fitting clothing as apposed to clothes that were 4 sizes too big"...look how EASILY Lupe Fiasco found acceptance with a song called "Kick, Push" a SKATEBOARD song..had this been 1996 he might have quite literally been killed for trying to put that song out.

I think black society is itching for a change in representation, and cinema is the last person on board the train over unescapable evolution, we're lucky enough to be doing movies at the right time in my opinion. Hell, read Ebert's review of "I Will Follow" - "I wouldn't even mention the fact that the film makers were black, if not for the fact that I feel like they finally got it right, yea we're black, but we're doing a diverse cast with a universal theme".

That's just it..we need to do UNIVERSAL THEMES/CAST and not turn them black...we need to do movies where the people don't acknowledge "oh hey homeboy I'm black".."white movies" don't make "black jokes" or "thank God we're white" comments. You don't see in a movie like WALL-STREET the main character going "Wall-street, man if I was a n*gga they prolly wouldn't even let me on this block"....but in black movies 9 times outta 10 there's several "black only" jokes, that alienate other viewers etc.

I'm doing something hopefully similar, where I'm trying to start out with more universal movies first and then when I gain the trust of an audience as a quality film maker, then I'll open up and show them "hey I can do "our" story and not make you feel alienated when you're in the theater watching it". Hell I'm more of a zombie fan than I am a fan of gangs or thugs..hence my first film being titled "Blood Thirsty".

This might be my longest rant in history and thanks to ANYONE willing to read it, sorry I jumped around so much but it was just refreshing to see film makers describe the urge to break down that stereotypical box and do movies that EVERYONE can enjoy no matter the color of their skin...I literally have this talk everyday and sometimes I feel so alone!!!

I too was thinking of making the move from NC to ATL, maybe one day we'll all be on a panel together discussing how we broke down the wall and opened the flood gates to universal acceptance to black skin in cinema!
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jls4 said:


I think you have to take a good look at the Codeblack Article you posted below (Which I’m going to reread in a bit – skimmed through). It’s about business, nothing more. Yes bootlegging is bad but there is still a strong enough market not to “kill off” the industry or those who play in it.

I’m not going to speak to any particular movie or filmmaker saying what I do like and what I don’t from a filmmaker. (Things can come back to bite you) But I’ve spent most of my life being attracted to Sci-Fi and Fantasy, not Urban-comedy nor Urban-Drama. And I don’t think Tyler looses fans because of the move from one genre to another, if that were true Steven Spielberg and Will Smith would be hurting as well. It’s ultimately about the way the story was told and what story was told.



I don’t think “We” are as hard to please, I think as the articles you already put on the page plainly show. “We” aren’t a market. Think about this: You have Black Americans from at least 3 major social classes that have been there for at least 2 generations, which means their parents and themselves never experienced certain things. When people have a disconnect they tend to be alienated and therefore don’t support. As popular as “Seinfeld” was I never got into the show until my Roommate in College (who actually was Black) watched it. Most Black people I know never got into the “Jewish New York” humor, nor did they watch “Friends”. Were these shows good, yes sure major, but did they resonate in all areas, no.

Shonda Lee over “Grey’s Anatomy” and “Private Practice” is Black. These are two of the most popular shows on the air and while I don’t watch them every week, I can get into these shows easier than “Debbie Does Compton” or “Why We Wuz Colored.” ;-)

My point is that you can have a great movie like “Something New” that I’ll admit was a great movie, but I personally don’t care to see it again because it felt too swayed towards the Black-Female Demographic. But there is nothing wrong with that sway, Black Women need movies that represent them, but you can alienate black men in doing so. The Black Market is now more like: Black Women; Black Family; Black Urban Drama / Action / Comedy; Black Comedy (Difference is in economic status of the characters); Hip Hop; Black Drama; Black History Drama.

For this reason, just as your friend from Maverick, suggests. I think those who shoot black films need to understand the market and make cheaper movies utilizing Digital Technologies and learning the essence of all parts of the movie production line. Learning more than Directing and Writing unfortunately has been a problem for many black filmmakers who don’t care to learn much outside of those niches. I learned 5 years ago that to be a success I would need to learn: Directing, Writing, Producing, Audio, Camera, Lighting, Set Design, Production Design, Editing, Color Correction, Sound Editing, Sound Foley/FX, Visual Effects, 3D Graphics, Wardrobe, etc. This is the future of Black Cinema IMO that doesn’t try to cross over.
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I don't disagree. In fact, I made the same points about learning more than just writing and cameras to a guy here in Houston that had a pretty long FBook entry regarding community. And there aren't as many people that are willing to say that a movie is great but it isn't there preference. Handshake for that. I happened to love Something New and watched it more than 10 times. It's not my typical movie though so I know what you mean. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
 
jls4 said:


I actually did a LOT of research on African Films mainly Nigerian films and I will admit that bootlegging is destroying what they could be creating (3rd strongest film market in the world is in Nigeria) . The Nigerian market is alive because of bootlegging in kind of a weird way.

Nigerian films are generally produced for less than $20K by people who like us want to be filmmakers. They are purchased by distributors who will put out maybe $100K worth of discs. When those discs hit the market, people buy them and take them to other countries like India and China and reproduce them to distribute throughout Africa. The distributor makes some money, the filmmakers make money but there is not enough to really make clean cut films. But the average store in Africa is not a chain store. The way stores are run in other places is different, they are all “Mom-and-Pop.” So getting to them and their customers is a bit difficult. Yes the market is there but not the perfect distro route and there are no in-betweens there like here in America. Once you get past that many people in these regions can’t afford to buy movies. In fact, the filmmaker working with me to do the Nigerian film told me sometimes families get together and buy a movie to watch. Even at $3 it can be costly for many families.

Now how does this effect Black Filmmakers in the US with overseas markets. Many times non-African Origin peoples don’t care to see our movies. Which means they pass to the over 1 Billion African Origin People in the world. Unfortunately many of them live in impoverished countries and can’t afford the purchase at “full price”. So the bootlegger buys the DVD, rips it and sells it for $2 or $3.

If anyone is from another country like Nigeria it would be good for them to chime in. This is the information I took from my research. It may not be perfect in every aspect. But logically it makes since. India and Europe have lots of “Disposable Cash” and China is getting stronger everyday. Why would an Indian or German or French person want to see your movie? Yes Black people live there, but in America there are only 12-13% Black, Accoring to Wikipedia in 2009 852.4 Million people lived in Europe, there are roughly 4 to 10 Million black people in Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Europe that’s less than 2%.

So now relook at your movie; rethink your movie. Think about why overseas distro is harder for black films.
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Let's put this in perspective though JLS4. You mentioned Will Smith as a crossover dramatic and comedic type person before. With an actor it's not only well received but it's encouraged. Compared to the whole, there aren't as many directors that do it successfully time and time again. It's a big generalization but people go to Woody Allen for romantic comedies. Spielberg and Lucas mostly for sci fi. Then the list goes on. I'm not saying that they we shouldn't try to make various types of film because I laugh and I cry. I like to be in suspense as well. Some people don't care to give the filmmaker a chance when they go against what they've been successful at. I do believe it's true with Tyler. The numbers for his dramatic pieces are typically far less than the comedy. Many whine that there aren't films out there that aren't comedic but there are. Not an abundance of them but there are some people doing it. AMC Independent distributed Mooz-lum and I Will Follow within 3 months. Not bad. There are opps out there. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
 
jls4 said:


I actually did a LOT of research on African Films mainly Nigerian films and I will admit that bootlegging is destroying what they could be creating (3rd strongest film market in the world is in Nigeria) . The Nigerian market is alive because of bootlegging in kind of a weird way.

Nigerian films are generally produced for less than $20K by people who like us want to be filmmakers. They are purchased by distributors who will put out maybe $100K worth of discs. When those discs hit the market, people buy them and take them to other countries like India and China and reproduce them to distribute throughout Africa. The distributor makes some money, the filmmakers make money but there is not enough to really make clean cut films. But the average store in Africa is not a chain store. The way stores are run in other places is different, they are all “Mom-and-Pop.” So getting to them and their customers is a bit difficult. Yes the market is there but not the perfect distro route and there are no in-betweens there like here in America. Once you get past that many people in these regions can’t afford to buy movies. In fact, the filmmaker working with me to do the Nigerian film told me sometimes families get together and buy a movie to watch. Even at $3 it can be costly for many families.

Now how does this effect Black Filmmakers in the US with overseas markets. Many times non-African Origin peoples don’t care to see our movies. Which means they pass to the over 1 Billion African Origin People in the world. Unfortunately many of them live in impoverished countries and can’t afford the purchase at “full price”. So the bootlegger buys the DVD, rips it and sells it for $2 or $3.

If anyone is from another country like Nigeria it would be good for them to chime in. This is the information I took from my research. It may not be perfect in every aspect. But logically it makes since. India and Europe have lots of “Disposable Cash” and China is getting stronger everyday. Why would an Indian or German or French person want to see your movie? Yes Black people live there, but in America there are only 12-13% Black, Accoring to Wikipedia in 2009 852.4 Million people lived in Europe, there are roughly 4 to 10 Million black people in Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Europe that’s less than 2%.

So now relook at your movie; rethink your movie. Think about why overseas distro is harder for black films.
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I totally left out the main response about perspective. Bootlegging won't harm a Will Smith film the same way that it would harm my film. A huge blockbuster almost has an insurance policy built into it for bootlegging. It's simply the fact that they made so much money that it almost didn't matter what they lost to bootlegging. If we're selling DVDs out of our trunk then bootlegging can be disastrous. As soon as a few copies are out there, the bootlegger and make more money than you on your own project. It's just like Coca Cola distro. There are wholesalers out there that buy up palettes and palettes of a drink. They sell it for half the price and make a killing off of it without even speaking to Coke about it. Bootlegging is good if the people want to see the extra scenes tacked on in the end. My guess is that most people aren't like me. They don't study how the filmmaker got his vision across or the deleted scenes. If they don't show them in the theaters, they don't feel they need to see it. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
 
Marlon Ladd said:
That's another thing I was thinking about. We have to get away from feeling something is a "black" movie. It's unfortunate that our society looks at films with predominately African-American casts as "black films," but the opposite is not true of other types of films I don't think. Like you don't hear people say, "It's a white film." I think if the movie really has good production value and a good story, it'll be a good film and people will see it that way. I think you can have a film that will really resonate with a black audience, but still have that appeal to everyone. I look at Ice Cube's movie, "Friday" as an example. That film really hit home with the black audience, but it was so good, funny and original that it crossed boundaries, and everybody loved it. I think we have to get our stories out there, but with better presentation. I was thinking about Maverick when I read the earlier post and to be honest, I do not like that company. I'll admit that they have done better about distributing higher production valued films, but I have seen them flood the market with flat-out terrible urban/black movies for years (and I mean years). That to me surely has not helped the perception of urban films. I have seen some of their films that had bad audio, bad acting, bad cinematography, bad music and a bad story all rolled up into one. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched some of their less than professional films and they are one of the biggest, if not the biggest urban film DVD distributor. I say all that to say that a love story is still a love story no matter the ethnicity. The culturalism of the film might even add to the film's worth. If it's good, people will watch it, but the hurdle is getting people to trust it first - meaning taking a chance to go see it or rent it. I look at "Step Off" and see what I'm referring to. It's a story about a music producer, but I think the bigger story is that it's a coming of age thing. A guy has talent and is trying to make his way, but has many hurdles to overcome. On the level, the story is basic, but look closer and we see other things that make it different and interesting. The guy is a music producer and a college student. I can't remember a film ever being done about a music producer like this. So, with all the elements we have a big story. The main character just happens to be black, his GF happens to be black and the music happens to be Hip-Hop.

And thanks, BTW. I haven't done well yet, but when I'm done I hope to. :thumbup:
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Maverick has some good films but with anyone you have to be diligent with your homework. I haven't seen their contracts but I've seen a couple from other places. They can mess you over with marketing costs alone. I've also heard about different offers from various places. Someone mentioned keeping costs down like what Lions Gate has proposed for the next few years. It's a must with these smaller distro companies especially. It's tough to sqeeze $50k out of them so it doesn't make sense to make a film for 50,000+ if you're going to them first. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
 
Marlon Ladd said:
It's funny that I've come into contact with you guys, because you're both from the ATL. I had actually thought about moving there about a year and a half ago. Glad to see some indie filmmakers out there making it happen. You guys seem to be on the same page as me. Getting out of the box as you say is so important and paramount. There are lots of people that love Tyler Perry's films and people that can't stand them. Like his films or not, he deserves so much respect for what he has been able to do and in such a short time. To be able to finance his own films and to have his own studio is bigtime. These are thing that I felt like people like Denzel should have been doing a long time ago. It also seems that now he's adding some versatility to his craft. I really enjoyed "For Colored Girls" and thought it was a great film. I have no idea why it hasn't received critical acclaim, but surely should in my opinion.

You guys keep riding that wave and hopefully one day I'll be right there next to you, and we can all make some history.
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Good points. It would be interesting to see how he'd be viewed if he came out with "For Colored..." or "Family That Preys" before he came out with Madea. Imagine that.
 
Careful here. I understand you want to be your own type of filmmaker. Is Spike really considered ANTI-WHITE or is he speaking up for other values that many filmmakers won't touch? What is the average black man like in TP movies? He usually characterizes at least two men that are diametrically opposed in each film.

Money question. Are you saying that if Oprah, Tyler or Spike offered $100k to fund your film that you would turn them down? It's not far fetched. Spike is funding at least 2 films from NYU students right now. One guy is from Houston. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
 
tieuellegacy said:
Careful here. I understand you want to be your own type of filmmaker. Is Spike really considered ANTI-WHITE or is he speaking up for other values that many filmmakers won't touch? What is the average black man like in TP movies? He usually characterizes at least two men that are diametrically opposed in each film.

Money question. Are you saying that if Oprah, Tyler or Spike offered $100k to fund your film that you would turn them down? It's not far fetched. Spike is funding at least 2 films from NYU students right now. One guy is from Houston. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
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First, let me amend my statement about Spike more so "anti-establishment" but it just so happens that the "establishment" is "white" (for now). On average, in the TP movies that I've seen, and I've seen most of them up until the last two years or so. The dark skinned man was usually the antagonist, abusing women (verbally, physically etc) or children. Selling drugs etc..and I'm not fond of him not being more universal in his representation of "black" america. It's almost like the athlete that clearly sells himself as a role model, but when he gets in trouble says "I'm not a role model, the parents should be the role model".

As for the money question. I never said I wasn't a fan of TP, Oprah or Spike. Tyler's films, no...Spike's reputation, not one I'd personally want. I have a clear cut respect for where they've come from, and where they were able to get to, and harbor no ill will towards any of them. Success is an excellent way to promote change in our community where people might stop wanting to be drug dealers and thugs and might want to start making legal money. If Oprah, Tyler or Spike offered me 100k to fund MY film, I'd take the money with a smile and a handshake, but if they saw my posts on DVXuser and asked me to explain I'd still tell them how I felt. They'd probably understand because I'm sure they know we're all entitled to our opinions...how ever, if they asked me to change my movie up to represent more of their views, I'd turn the money down.
 
tieuellegacy said:
Let's put this in perspective though JLS4. You mentioned Will Smith as a crossover dramatic and comedic type person before. With an actor it's not only well received but it's encouraged. Compared to the whole, there aren't as many directors that do it successfully time and time again. It's a big generalization but people go to Woody Allen for romantic comedies. Spielberg and Lucas mostly for sci fi. Then the list goes on. I'm not saying that they we shouldn't try to make various types of film because I laugh and I cry. I like to be in suspense as well. Some people don't care to give the filmmaker a chance when they go against what they've been successful at. I do believe it's true with Tyler. The numbers for his dramatic pieces are typically far less than the comedy. Many whine that there aren't films out there that aren't comedic but there are. Not an abundance of them but there are some people doing it. AMC Independent distributed Mooz-lum and I Will Follow within 3 months. Not bad. There are opps out there. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
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tieuellegacy said:
I totally left out the main response about perspective. Bootlegging won't harm a Will Smith film the same way that it would harm my film. A huge blockbuster almost has an insurance policy built into it for bootlegging. It's simply the fact that they made so much money that it almost didn't matter what they lost to bootlegging. If we're selling DVDs out of our trunk then bootlegging can be disastrous. As soon as a few copies are out there, the bootlegger and make more money than you on your own project. It's just like Coca Cola distro. There are wholesalers out there that buy up palettes and palettes of a drink. They sell it for half the price and make a killing off of it without even speaking to Coke about it. Bootlegging is good if the people want to see the extra scenes tacked on in the end. My guess is that most people aren't like me. They don't study how the filmmaker got his vision across or the deleted scenes. If they don't show them in the theaters, they don't feel they need to see it. Tieuel Legacy! Motion
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The only problem I have with what you’ve said here is really comedy vs Drama. Comedy even among white audiences does typically better than Drama. Many people don’t want to see Drama and filmmakers miss the “Teens and Tweens” (12-25 year olds) which still make up the biggest market for film because they have the largest amount of disposable money. When was the last time you heard a 16 year old say, “Hey let’s go watch Shawshank Redemption.” This is why I say Tyler doesn’t need to change his name, because there is no need. As for Speilburg he has plenty of dramatic works under his belt, it’s just that he and Lucas recognized earlier that you make more money catering to the “popcorn crowds”. And ultimately this is a business to make money.


I think you're missing my point. Part of my point is about disposable income/capital. Yes, bootlegging is hurting black cinema, but even if no bootlegging was present there is not this vast financial well that is out there. If we say that Tyler Perry (TP as we call him here in Atlanta) makes a movie for $15 Million and uses $15 million for ads, then the movie cost $30 Million. Now if it makes $100 Million at Box office with $50 Million on DVD and $20 Million for TV. We have a total of $170 Million made. Sound reasonable? Now of the $100 Million at the Box Office more than $50 Million will go to the Theaters. Of the $50 Million on DVD, more than $25 Million will go to the DVD Printers/ Distributors / Stores, etc. And even with the $20 Million for TV you have to deal with agents, accountants and others pulling on the money. So now our $170 Million is more like $90 Million. Subtract the $30 Million and you still have a $60 Million Dollar Profit for the Investors (The people who put up the money). When you have another movie like “Just Wright” with Queen Latifah and Common, they didn’t do as well. So they will probably just break even or eventually through TV and DVD make some profit. The people who buy bootlegs (generally lower economic classes) will probably lean towards buying Tyler vs buying Just Wright. So Tyler may have lost some revenue especially in the upper age groups, but he probably won’t loose much from the Tweens and Teens (12-25) because these people want to go out just for the heck of it and have disposable income. The reason why even in Mainstream Cinema people lean towards Action / comedy and Horror is because the Teens and Tweens go see them. That's also why the rating PG-13 is the rating everyone is shooting for, just enough for 12 year olds to get in, but with enough action and violence to get the 25 year olds.
 
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