Starting out with HMC150, need workflow/NLE advice please!

S

shawn.w

Active member
Hello everyone,

I just recently bought the HMC150 and a quad core PC to edit with. I'm new to the HD scene so I was hoping you guys could help me with some startup questions. First off here's my PC specs:

OS: vista 64bit - stability issues with some NLE's?
i7 920 2.6GHz quad core processor
ATI radeon HD4850 GFX card
12 gigs DDR3 ram
2) 640GB HDs in raid 0 for OS and media cache
2) 1TB HDs for footage storage and backup, can buy more if needed

I'll soon be starting a project to promote multiple departments within a local college. There will likely be 20 + hours of footage once im done shooting, and then I will work with a friend to add in motion graphics and other effects. I would also like to do minor color correction. Previously I would use my old powerbook G4 for editing in Final Cut Pro, as this is what i learned on, but it was much cheaper to build my own PC that could handle AVCHD than buy a new mac.

So the questions are, what format do you guys think i should be shooting in, and what sort of work flow do you think would work best for this project? I'll be finishing to DVD and the web and fast turnaround is not a requirement, i have quite a while to edit. I haven't committed to any NLE at this point, so recommendations for Vegas or PPro CS4 or anything else are welcome. Im not sure if this is a valid at all as ive never edited on PC, but if any NLE is similar to FCP i would be more comfortable with that.

Im also questioning if I will need to use an intermediate, i have read a bit on cineform. I worry that I may need one, even though it seems my system should be able to handle AVCHD editing, because today as I played back some test footage in PPro CS4 4.1 it had weird artifacts and black shadows / blocks that would pop up during playback. These are not on the actual footage, and also when i press the right arrow and go through the footage slightly slower it plays fine without any artifacts. Then again could this just be a GFX card / GFX drivers problem? (fully up to date), i have had minor issues with it lately on my gaming partition. Let me know what you guys think, Thanks!


- Shawn
 
I own 3 HMC 150s and a RED one and I'm shooting tv series with them at 720.24p with a JAG35 adapter and the end results are unprecedented. I do same day edits and I love the way it works. my advice for workflow includes GET A MAC AND any recent version of Final Cut Pro (FCP) because of the native intergration with P2 solid states cameras and the ease of use as well as on FCP 7 it makes getting any work import -edit- and exporting to any format quite easy. Also collaborating with other producers a snap with ICHAT but the whole MAC thing now makes sense with all the new 64 bit OS speed programs I can shoot -compile raw edits , sound design (in LOGIC , or SOUND TRACK) and and vfx (AFTER EFFECTS, MOTION) post everything right there. Once you go mac you won't ever go back! its worth every penny I paid. My advice if your on the move go the full 17 in mac book pro. if you have a standf still get the big boy 8 quad. Or at least a 24inch Intel IMAC.
 
funproducer said:
I own 3 HMC 150s and a RED one and I'm shooting tv series with them at 720.24p with a JAG35 adapter and the end results are unprecedented. I do same day edits and I love the way it works. my advice for workflow includes GET A MAC AND any recent version of Final Cut Pro (FCP) because of the native intergration with P2 solid states cameras and the ease of use as well as on FCP 7 it makes getting any work import -edit- and exporting to any format quite easy. Also collaborating with other producers a snap with ICHAT but the whole MAC thing now makes sense with all the new 64 bit OS speed programs I can shoot -compile raw edits , sound design (in LOGIC , or SOUND TRACK) and and vfx (AFTER EFFECTS, MOTION) post everything right there. Once you go mac you won't ever go back! its worth every penny I paid. My advice if your on the move go the full 17 in mac book pro. if you have a standf still get the big boy 8 quad. Or at least a 24inch Intel IMAC.
Click to expand...
Fanboy Much?

He already Has the PC that will kick the macbook pro's butt!


In premeire, to get rid of the "artifacts" you're seeing, all you have to do is right click on your video preview window and change "playback quality" to "best". It defaults to a Draft mode.

Premeire 4.1 has probably the best native support for raw avchd, but to take advantage of it, you'd need an nvidia graphics card. The production premium suite is a great deal with after effects, encore, etc. and they all support dynamic linking.

I use Vegas on my lappy and Vegas might work natively with your setup, but transcoding to an intermediate will make every editor ultra-smooth. I'd prefer to install the free copy of Edius Neo that comes with the camera use the to avchd to canopus hq converter off the grass valley website to transcode and drop into the vegas timeline. However, the transcoded files only work in 32-bit versions of vegas, so you may prefer cineform.

I'd reccomend getting the trials of several NLE's and see how you like them and how the handle on your computer. If you're only working on your own projects, you don't need to worry about someone else's favorite NLE, and get what works best for you.
 
KnoxHotch said:
Fanboy Much?

He already Has the PC that will kick the macbook pro's butt!
Click to expand...

Hmmm, seems that fanboy means different things to different users. :) Also, I don't remember anyone mentioning a MBP.

but if any NLE is similar to FCP i would be more comfortable with that.
Click to expand...

I also recommend FCS3 even if you have a new PC.

You can always sell it because it seems that you like the way FCP7 edits.

I don't know what a fanboy is, but the NLE makes the editing process not the computer, and you seem interested in how FCP handles that process.
 
David... actually they are both fanboys!.. The first reply: "GET A MAC AND" ... Um... the OP has a very fast PC.. With Vista 64 (easily overclock to 3.4ghz) Why pray tell would he downgrade?
Next guy saw that the OP already has a fast PC so he gave his advice.

My advice... same as KNOX.... Swap out the ATI card for a Nvidia card (preferably a 'Cuda based for acceleration in Premiere CS4) and grab the Production bundle or master suite of CS4.
 
I agree.

I just wish we can stay away from platform wars here, and the term "fanboy" is purely pejorative.

If the OP likes FCP, I don't understand why he went PC, but that being said, Premiere 4.1 is one solution, but for AVCHD Edius seems to be a very good one as well.

It might be good for the OP to indicate what he/she likes about FCP, and then a PC user can suggest something.
 
I personally think vegas handles AVCHD a lot better than CS4 but if you are used to FCP then I would definitely go with CS4 its much closer to FCP than vegas
 
Edius is the best for avchd on a PC, but Vegas rocks as well.

but if you want something similar to FCP, go with Premiere.
highly recommend a transcode to eliminate all hassles while editing.
the easiest is to use Panny's Mainconcept tool for converting avchd to dvcproHD, but Cineform and Edius's Canopus HQ work really well too.
unless you have SDEs, taking time to transcode will allow for realtime performance and scrubbing and even give the option of converting up to a 4:2:2 color space.
 
David S. said:
I agree.

I just wish we can stay away from platform wars here, and the term "fanboy" is purely pejorative.

If the OP likes FCP, I don't understand why he went PC, but that being said, Premiere 4.1 is one solution, but for AVCHD Edius seems to be a very good one as well.

It might be good for the OP to indicate what he/she likes about FCP, and then a PC user can suggest something.
Click to expand...


Agreed.... as a long time Edius user I think it's the closest match to FCP on a PC. That said, I switched to Premiere CS4.1 and simply love it for native AVCHD.
 
"the easiest is to use Panny's Mainconcept tool for converting avchd to dvcproHD, but Cineform and Edius's Canopus HQ work really well too.
unless you have SDEs, taking time to transcode will allow for realtime performance and scrubbing and even give the option of converting up to a 4:2:2 color space."


what is this mainconcept tool and where do i find it?

what are "SDEs"?

so what are the pros and cons of editing native AVCHD (assuming it runs smoothly) vs. transcoding into an intermediate?

Im not sure if i fully understand this process. Once the original .mts(AVCHD) files are converted to another type, which you use to edit, do they stay this way through export, or is there some sort of swap back to the original AVCHD files at the end of editing before export?

To answer the question of what I like about FCP, i guess it's just the accessibility to the tools in the UI and the ease of constructing and manipulating clips in the timeline.


oh also, some have recommended i swap out my ati card for a nvidia. why is this? and what cards do you recommend?

Thanks guys!

- Shawn
 
Well I didn't know a little FCP recommendation would cause such hysteria. If you like the PC stick to it. But from where I'm editing and in the cities I'm editing... FCP and MAC seems to be the standard. Just my two cents. ... Regards, Fanboy!
 
funproducer said:
Well I didn't know a little FCP recommendation would cause such hysteria. If you like the PC stick to it. But from where I'm editing and in the cities I'm editing... FCP and MAC seems to be the standard. Just my two cents. ... Regards, Fanboy!
Click to expand...


No biggie.. We can all work together. The OP already has a very fast PC that can edit AVCHD natively without rendering to an intermediate codec. Edius can do this but it's VERY choppy (hopefully soon they will fix this in an update). It's MUCH better using CS4.1 with an Nvidia card. Preferably a 'Cuda based card. Nvidia's list of Cuda based cards.
Fudzilla aritcle on CS4.1 and Cuda
"Nvidia’s Cuda GPU acceleration pays off

We’ve seen some videos of how much Cuda with Nvidia graphics card can speed up certain effects in Photoshop CS4 and Premiere CS4. This is all a part of newly announced Creative Suite 4 and support for Nvidia’s Cuda."
 
ATL Media Group said:
Agreed.... as a long time Edius user I think it's the closest match to FCP on a PC. That said, I switched to Premiere CS4.1 and simply love it for native AVCHD.
Click to expand...

interesting. i found Premiere to be more like FCP...they even have almost all the same default keyboard shortcuts! and the visual interface and ability to manipulate keyframes/fx right in the preview window is super slick.

shawn: SDE = same day edit

transcoding, done right, will give you better results and definitely better performance than editing native...no matter what your NLE or platform or computer specs. can't remember if Premiere has an easy way to replace clips, but I used to do something similiar in Edius, but then found there really wasn't any point as the transcoded clips were really good, with no loss in quality.

the Panny P2 transcoder can be found on their site. the link has also been posted somewhere in this forum. i think you need to register maybe to get to the download, but could be wrong there...memory fails me. =)
 
thanks for all the help so far everyone, ive been surfing around all day reading up on stuff and wanted to restate my question a little more directly:


basically here are my main considerations.

- This will be a long project, months of shooting

- I will be doing some color correction and motion graphics in post

- I need to be able to store and backup whatever file types i end up editing in hopefully in under 4TB of space. As i think i can only add 2 more Hard drives to my PC on top of the 2TB storage i already have.

Ive read a bit about using "proxies" or down converting to SD to edit, although i dont understand this process well at all. Then also about transcoding footage to a file type that is easier to scrub through and edit with, especially if your considering color correction or effects. However it seems transcoding creates much larger files, which im not sure i would be able to store considering i may have 20+ hours of footage from this project. Im also still not clear on if you export having worked off the transcoded file all along and thats it, or if you revert back to the pre-transcoded file before export?

Someone also mentioned shooting in lower bit rates to save on space and editing troubles. Im not very tech savy on how exactly bit rates translate into quality, but would this also be an option to save space?

- Shawn
 
If you are going to do some grading, then I would consider moving to a proxy or transcode codec. It will get you into a better color space, and make editing a pleasure instead of what can become a chore by working natively with AVCHD.

Despite the a powerful graphic card and a faster computer, native RT AVCHD is still dicey. And I mean editing, not straight cuts and little more.
 
funproducer said:
Well I didn't know a little FCP recommendation would cause such hysteria. If you like the PC stick to it. But from where I'm editing and in the cities I'm editing... FCP and MAC seems to be the standard. Just my two cents. ... Regards, Fanboy!
Click to expand...

Never meant to be hostile either, FCP is a wonderful editor, but I figured since he went for the PC those options would be more relevant.

In terms of being FCP friendly, Vegas is pretty unique and would take some getting used to (but it's definitely my favorite). Since the cam comes with edius neo, you can take advantage of the avchd to canopus hq converter, which allows you to drag your sd card onto an icon and it will transcode to wherever you want to put the footage and archive the card however you want to.

The typical transcoded codecs eat up somewhere in the neighborhood of 1gb per minute of footage, so 20 hours would be around 1.2tb of finished footage, but you can always delete the transcoded files and keep the original mts files if space is needed.

From what I understand, the same guy who designed FCP's layout designed premeire's modern layout, and that's the reason they're so similar. Right now the Adobe Production Premium pack might be your best bet, but definitely give the trials of vegas and edius some consideration.
 
I've just gotten back from a 2-week long shoot and I have 27 card dumps averaging 10GB (1 hr) each. The MainConcept DVCPRO HD transcoder (free from Panasonic's website) ratio is about 4.3 to 1 for 720/24p, so I estimate I'll need just over 1TB of space to transcode it all.

I'm still debating whether at the end of the edit I'll trash the transcodes (along with all of their meta data!) or accept the fact that I've just paid about $100 to archive my project. We'll see...
 
Call me a fanboy if you want, but what about an i7 Hackintosh! and he'll be able to run FCP/FCS
there are some stable i7 Hackintoshes (maybe if his hardware is compatible)...
It would be a fun project for sure.
 
true, i'm trying to dual boot hackintosh my lappy to work with a few people at my school (and for fun).

I edit on vegas, my school edits on premeire cs4, my friends use fcp, and I had an internship using avid, gotta be able to edit on anything i guess.
 
- what exactly would be the best possible format for this project? if im going to dvd and web video, why do i need to shoot over 720? also, does anyone recommend 60i or 30p or 24p for this sort of long form promo video? any mode have less issues and work better with adding motion graphics or color correction?

- I read about proxies being something like you bring in your HD footage, then open up a SD sequence or down convert to SD, edit in SD, then somehow revert back to HD before export, thus having edited with SD in proxy for HD? still not clear on how this works. i will likely be using PPro CS4 if someone could explain how it would work in that program.

- with transcoding, using something like cineform, i start with my AVCHD files, then transcode to cineform avi, but do i export using the cineform avi in the timeline? or do i somehow revert back to the original AVCHD before export?

as you can probably tell ive got somewhat of a learning disability, its hard for me to process all this technical data without visuals or examples, so please dont hesitate to explain things like you would to a child or total beginner, it will help a lot in my case. thanks!

- Shawn
 
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