Speed booster for the LT?

A

Alex Derrick

Active member
Hey guys,

I was wondering if the LT could be speed boosted w/ something like a metabones adapted build for the EF mount?
Maybe metabones could be cajoled into producing something for the user community?

-Alex
 
I would have to say we might need something in front of the sensor (like a new replaceable mount that replaces the stock EF mount) instead of an adapter out front like a EF to E Mount Speedbooster. I don't know the specific physics but I would assume that would be preferred.
 
you can't add an adapter to an EF mount. Flange issues....
Personally I do not see what a speed booster would add to this camera. It doesn't Need the alleged improved low light of a focal reducer. And it's already a s35 cinema standard sensor.
With That being said it would have to be a dedicated Booster EF mount, Sort or like the kinefinity KineEnhancer

http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/k2ef-active_en/?lang=en

I doubt there would be enough demand for anyone to make one of these. Particualrly for a cameras with a S35mm sensor with dual base iso when one of the base iso is 5000iso
 
Just hopping back on this thread. I was talking with my brother about the newly announced Arri 4k Full Frame camera, and we were both wondering again whether a metabones type of speed boosting lens mount could be developed for the LT to open up full frame imaging on our beloved Super35 dual ISO sensor?

If Panasonic could develop a robust mount that would be so cool. Panasonic colours and dimensional rendering plus full frame bokeh. WOW!!

Wishful thinking...?
 
There's a guy making one for the 4K/4.6K EF URSA Mini (not Pro)...it widens the FOV and may let some light in, but not sure. Don't even know if he's selling any, but maybe it's worth looking into/reaching out to him...google LucAdapters.
 
In theory it could be done, but it would have to be a replacement to the standard EF adapter mount. Frankly with the tooling required and the incredibly low volume such a product would likely sell (dozens?), the most financially viable solution would likely be to buy our standard EF mount adapter as a replacement part and then alter it with an optical block. I can’t see the finished unit selling for less than a couple grand. Is there really a market at that point?

Just because something is technically feasible doesn’t necessarily make it financially viable.
 
In theory: maybe.
In reality: no way.

Instead of the EF or PL mount adapter, the VariCam LT's neutral mount is quite shallow. It may be close enough to allow an adapter to Sony's E mount. Just barely.

BUT...

Even if Sony would provide the electronic protocols for the pin contacts on the lens, most E-mount lenses are very much fly-by-wire, so you couldn't even properly focus them without full implementation of those protocols, much less adjust the aperture or zoom without the image instantly shifting out of focus. The VariCam LT is not designed to run autofocus or any other focusing system, so the fly-by-wire parfocal design of the E-mount lenses may be impossible to enable with the camera. It's just not the intended use, and the lens design is inherently different than the EF-mount lenses which do not rely on fly-by-wire to remain parfocal. That's not a dig at Sony -- it's able to make those lenses inexpensive and lightweight by going with the electronically-supplemented design, but you have to support that all the way or it just won't work at all.

Without the electronic connectivity, it would just be a "dumb" E-mount adapter. That would work for some all-mechanical primes available in E-mount like Veydra, Zeiss, Tokina, Sigma, etc., but most of them are also available in EF or PL mount. The only zooms it would enable would be the two Fujinons, and while they would be pretty sweet on a VariCam LT, once again I fear that it's such a specific and small market (just two lenses and one camera) that the adapters would need to be pretty expensive for anyone to bother to build them.
 
I think the question about e-mount was about being able to add readily available speedbooster adapters to the camera. I assume electronic control would be useful but not a deal-breaker since an e-mount (or perhaps mft) would still allow easy access to many adapters with focal reducers.

Certainly seems like an MFT mount would make a lot of sense for sharing adapters and lenses and focal reducers with Panasonic's gh4/5/5s cameras as b-cams.
 
Mitch Gross said:
The only zooms it would enable would be the two Fujinons, and while they would be pretty sweet on a VariCam LT, once again I fear that it's such a specific and small market (just two lenses and one camera) that the adapters would need to be pretty expensive for anyone to bother to build them.
Click to expand...

That was the only reason I was asking. Those lenses seem like they're very nice. Maybe the price of the lenses still would make the mount "affordable" compared to other cine zooms? The lenses are also very light compared to others, which is nice.
 
Milan O. said:
Mitch, would it be possible to make an E-mount for the LT?
Click to expand...

The two mounts available for the LT are EF and PL which have a flange back distance of 44mm and 52mm respectively. The Sony E-Mount has a flange back of 18mm. To enable an E-Mount to work on an LT would mean chopping back the LT's EF mount towards the sensor a massive 26mm. The space that was originally occupied by the mirror box on Canon mirror based cameras. That is a massive amount to move back to accommodate an E-Mount. This is why speed boosters are possible for EF to E-Mount, likewise Nikon at 46mm. Speed boosters occupy that 26mm to 28mm space that used to be reserved for the SLR/DSLR mirror box. JVC with their S35 sensor decided to go with the M4/3 lens mount which has a flange back of 19.25mm. Speed boosters are available for the M4/3 mount because again there is space for a booster to slot in, in the M4/3 case there is 24.75mm in which to accommodate a speed booster. Unless as previously stated someone is going to make a very complex and pricey optical solution I don't see any possible practicable way of overcoming that massive 44m flange back.

The general move is towards much shorter flange distances for a variety of reasons. It's easier to make smaller lighter wide angles as the rear element can sit much closer to the sensor requiring far less elements to 'bend' the light around to focus it down the longer mount required by longer flange distances. Even ARRI have headed this way as their new LPL- Mount has a 62mm wide mount with a 44mm flange back distance for the ALEXA LF. This allows the camera to accept their new Signature line of prime lenses. That 8mm difference makes a big difference. It now enables ARRI to run a low distortion 18/T1.8 on the LF's 44.71 diameter FF sensor.

Chris Young
 
Also the Sony E Mount is very proprietary, and Sony is not likely going to licenses it to the competition. So a Speed Booster on the longer EF/PL FFD is a non starter.
Cheers
 
My question was based on the fact that the LT has removable EF- and PL-mounts. A passive E-mount would be interesting for the use of Fujinon MK lenses and Veydra primes.
 
Yes it would, but even with the EF/PL mount removed the remaining lens mount turret FFD is still longer than a E Mount, so it just will not physically work, same for a MFT mount, the FFD is shorter than the camera allows. A EF Mount FFD is 44mm, and a PL FFD is 52mm as previously pointed out. Even if the EF mount is say 10mm thick, that leaves the turret at 34mm, so a 18mm E mon t or 19.25mm MFT Mount is not going to physically work, which is why I said this was a non starter to begin with.

But, still a nice idea but would require a new camera. Panny had a chance at this with the EVA1, but choose to go with the longer EF Mount instead, which can be adapted to a PL mount.
Cheers
 
You nailed it on the head Denny.

Yes it still baffles me why Pana went with a very old mirror design still camera mount when an M4/3 mount would have opened up the camera to all manner of lenses and mounts via adapters. To tie oneself into a competitors aging still camera architecture stills confuses me. The M4/3 mount would have enabled all Canon's EF glass along with speed boosting plus so much more. It's not as if all of Canon's lens functions work beautifully with the EVA as they do on their host Canon bodies. Still ???? confused. As much as I'm not a great lover of the E-Mount, the 2nd gen one on the FS7 Mk II is better, but it is an incredibly flexible mount. As Fujinon said about their MK lenses:

"There are two main reasons why Fujinon decided to only make these lenses available in E-mount. The first is that Fujinon have been conducting research that indicated that quite a lot of all lenses sold in the emerging production market were E-mount, in fact, the amount was second only to Canon’s EF mount. However when they looked at the camera quantity share based on mounts, more than half of all the cameras being sold were using the Sony E-mount. This really is testament to just how popular the Sony FS7, FS5, and Alpha series of mirrorless cameras have become."

Sure Sony may not have agreed to Panasonic supplying an E-Mount but had Panasonic designed the front end of the EVA with dimensions that would have allowed third party manufactures to make a variety of mounts to fit I'm sure those third party folks would have leapt in to service the demand, as has happened with the E-Mount. Panasonic could have developed their own short proprietary mount much as Sony did with their FZ mount at 19mm. That FZ mount now has numerous adapters for a host of different glass from FF stills to B4 and PL. That proprietary FZ mount never held Sony back and I don't think a short proprietary Panasonic one would hold them back either. I think had Panasonic developed their own lens mount adapter like this one with full data pass through it would have been a big plus for the industry. Not cheap but for serious shooters necessary. Again there are much cheaper 'dumb' adapters around if the data pass through is not required.

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses...o-pl-mount-adapter-with-12-pin-lens-connector

Chris Young
 
I've been saying this for years. The camera manufacturers should be making their bodies with a shallow, wide, strong, quick release, neutral mount with full data, power and communication(a la Sony FZ) to allow for the use of pretty much any lens type via adapter. Yes it would be more money, but the flexibility would be worth it. I can put my Canon 17-120(PL), my Canon CN-E Primes(EF), my Canon still lenses(EF) and even my 2/3" ENG lenses(B4) all on my F55 with adapters that go to the native camera FZ mount.

IF the V35 had swappable mounts, I may have bought one last year. My dealer was selling one of their demo units and approached me before they advertised it(so to speak) with a price that was too good to pass up(less than an LT), but being stuck at PL only* keeps it out of the running for me, because I'm sitting on ~$30K worth of Canon CN-E primes that are EF mount. At least the LT can swap between PL and EF, BUT it's not a great system. It takes way too long to change the mount vs. FZ and you need tools, unless you wanna fly fast and loose and not tighten the retaining screws on the mount collar(which I actually started doing when I had the demo unit).


* I believe it's P&S that actually makes a different mount(system) for the V35, but it's a little involved and then your mounts are "dumb".
 
cyvideo said:
That proprietary FZ mount never held Sony back and I don't think a short proprietary Panasonic one would hold them back either. I think had Panasonic developed their own lens mount adapter like this one with full data pass through it would have been a big plus for the industry. Not cheap but for serious shooters necessary. Again there are much cheaper 'dumb' adapters around if the data pass through is not required.

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses...o-pl-mount-adapter-with-12-pin-lens-connector

Chris Young
Click to expand...

I'm not so certain the the FZ mount worked out that well for Sony. As someone who also owns an F3, one of the first things I did at that point was buy a Nikon/FZ adapter to use my Nikon still lenses. Yes, that did give me the option to quickly switch from PL to Nikon. But any kind of properly functioning Canon adapter was very long in coming - and expensive enough that it wasn't a trivial purchase. I never got to the point of even looking for a speedbooster to FZ adapter. And the B4 adapters for the F3 lost 2+ stops... For the F5/F55 it became possible to window the sensor for HD and use a B4 adapter that didn't blow up the image so much -- but those were darn expensive as well.

So in terms of the EVA1 I think Panasonic has made a reasonable choice - after comparing how Sony fared with the FZ compared with how the C300 series did with the canon mount. Yes, it would be nice to be able to switch between EF and PL mounts in a matter of seconds to be able to use my PL glass, but maybe that's for a different camera. Interesting to see what Sony has done with the PL / E-mount combo on the Venice... ( of course abandoning the FZ concept). I personally think the M4/3 mount is a bit lightwaight for adapting any serious PL glass - just too much torque for a small radius bayonet...
 
OnSet said:
I'm not so certain the the FZ mount worked out that well for Sony. As someone who also owns an F3, one of the first things I did at that point was buy a Nikon/FZ adapter to use my Nikon still lenses. Yes, that did give me the option to quickly switch from PL to Nikon. But any kind of properly functioning Canon adapter was very long in coming - and expensive enough that it wasn't a trivial purchase. I never got to the point of even looking for a speedbooster to FZ adapter. And the B4 adapters for the F3 lost 2+ stops... For the F5/F55 it became possible to window the sensor for HD and use a B4 adapter that didn't blow up the image so much -- but those were darn expensive as well.

So in terms of the EVA1 I think Panasonic has made a reasonable choice - after comparing how Sony fared with the FZ compared with how the C300 series did with the canon mount. Yes, it would be nice to be able to switch between EF and PL mounts in a matter of seconds to be able to use my PL glass, but maybe that's for a different camera. Interesting to see what Sony has done with the PL / E-mount combo on the Venice... ( of course abandoning the FZ concept). I personally think the M4/3 mount is a bit lightwaight for adapting any serious PL glass - just too much torque for a small radius bayonet...
Click to expand...
I think Sony abandoned FZ mount for one reason- lenses. when they replaced FZ on F5 with e-mount on FS 7 couple of things cleared out:
1. they stayed in their own eco system
2. Their emount lens sales went up and consequently:
3. it allowed them to invest into their e-mount line up.
2. The lens R&D ROI is much quicker since e-mount links their pro cameras with their consumer cameras (alpha line)
as much as I hate to admit it that was a good move that consolidated and gave clear direction to their camera/lens efforts....
Of course e-mount is a consumer type bayonet mount and not well suited for film set/pro environment. I think they decided to live with that- the advantages are greater than flaws here...
 
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