7D Sound Advice for 7D sound. . .?

C

cometsincaves

Member
Hi this question is geared towards people who are relatively experienced with sound mixing and post sound. I'm a sound guy (don't know a lot about cameras) helping out a buddy with his setup for his production company. He has a 7D and is trying to figure out his audio setup for it. After spending considerable time with the camera, the manual and some supplimental gear he bought, it seems to me like this camera wasn't made with sound in mind to say the least.

The question is, in order for post sound to be able to be done to industry standards, I'm thinkin he would be better off with a more traditional external setup (mixer going into digital recorder) that would be synced up in post as opposed to making the best of the internal mics. He bought a JuicedLink to mix to the internal camera input with but it still has considerable limitations compared to an external setup as far as I can tell. Was wondering for people who have gone down this road with this or a similar camera in this family of cameras, what you're experiences are and what you would recommend.

Thank you,
Adam
 
Sorry not trying to be an jerk. Do a search.

There are so many threads discussing this. You are just asking what others have just asked (even recently). If you do a thread search you'll find a ton of information that will have some good advice collected up. Rather than people starting to answer again what has been answered a million times.

I see it's your first post and was just letting you know. This question is basic and has been beaten to death.
 
draven4 said:
Sorry not trying to be an jerk. Do a search.

There are so many threads discussing this. You are just asking what others have just asked (even recently). If you do a thread search you'll find a ton of information that will have some good advice collected up. Rather than people starting to answer again what has been answered a million times.

I see it's your first post and was just letting you know. This question is basic and has been beaten to death.
Click to expand...

Ok, apologies for not searchin ahead of time. I was just searchin and had a bit of luck but wasn't sure if I should be looking at posts specifically for the 7D or all the cameras in this catagory, including the 550D/T2i's too?
 
cometsincaves said:
... wasn't sure if I should be looking at posts specifically for the 7D or all the cameras in this catagory, including the 550D/T2i's too?
Click to expand...

As a rule, DSLR cameras suck at sound. Many have AGC that cannot be deactivated except through a hack. Even the ones that do have manual control (by factory design or by firmware hack) still have terrible pre-amps and are best left for scratch/reference audio. Plus, there's no way to monitor audio through headphones during production, so even with AGC off and manual control on the recording is still left up to chance.

Do a search for "DSLR audio" or "double system sound" and see what comes up. Or, just browse through the first 2 or 3 pages in both the 7D/5D and HDSLR forums. DSLR sound questions are asked several times a day around here.
 
I will look into the Marantz. What did you find better about the Marantz than working with the zoom? Can you share why it is s**tty?
 
I have no personal experience with it but for my situation I have a rode ntg2 and with the preamps on the zoom it doesn't play so well according to other users. Also iv read the preamps on the marantz kicks the zoom and tascam dr100 in the nuts. With the super mod its modified even more for cleaner dialogue recording and a lower noise floor. So that's the recorder I'm gonna get. I'm sure Nick can expand since he's actually used it.
 
So you've never used the Zoom but you're telling someone advice not to buy it?

And you've never used the Marantz?

Just trying to get it straight because you got me interested in the Marantz but I want some real solid advice.
 
if you search you'll see what people that have used it think. I dont think i need to personally use something to make up my mind from many valid reviews, that it is indeed good...especially comparing it to the Zoom and tascam.
 
The problems with the Zoom H4n:

- Less than adequate pre-amps
- Clunky design that is not audio-bag-friendly
- PITA user interface/menu system
- Not really capable of true line-level input without some external signal padding (makes it a poor choice for use with a mixer)

The advantages of the Marantz with the Oade Bros. Mod:

- Sturdier construction
- Much better pre-amps

I have worked with both. From the stand point of form factor, neither really impress me. The Zoom's design is truly as a hand-held. You can't put it in a bag and still have access to many/any controls. The Marantz is also not bag-friendly. I like the sound of the Marantz, even without the modded pre-amps, but I just don't like the physical design. It's fine sitting on a cart.

We're also talking about devices with two completely different intended uses. The Zoom, with built-in stereo mics, is really designed for on-the-go field recording with minimal gear. It's a musician's sketch-pad, and for that it is perfectly fine. It's also a great plant mic for ambient sound bed recording, since it can be crammed into awkward spaces to record (but for that, the H1 is even more compact and isn't as expensive to replace if it is destroyed in the name of recording). The XLR ins are an added feature, but it isn't really designed with external gear as a priority. The Marantz is designed for more heavy-duty recording with external gear.

I have the original H4 (not H4n), and it's honestly been a great investment. Unlike it's successor, the H4n, it can actually take line-level in and it makes a very nice line recorder. I would never use it as my one and only, but it's still been an invaluable part of my kit. Sadly, it recently decided to eat batteries like candy and will deplete a fresh pair of AAs in under 5 minutes of recording. I may replace it with an H1 just so I have a plant mic, but again it's not my primary machine.

You might look at the Fostex FR2-LE or the TASCAM HD-P2, both available with Oade Bros. modifications. These are much more flexible in physical design, and both actually have really good pre-amps off the shelf. The FR2-LE works in a bag though it offers only minimal display that way, whereas that HD-P2 has a display screen that's visible on cart or bag. The FR2-LE has a pretty lousy headphone amp, but the recordings are clean. The HD-P2 has XLR inputs that are labeled MIC/LINE, but they cannot actually take line-in (there are RCA line inputs). Both are worth the expense, with or without the mod.
 
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Ok, so i've searched and read quite a bit on here and it seems like 19/20 people on here would go with the external setup for a number of reasons that make sense to me.

The setup we were looking at was a for a show that features 2 actors wearing Lav mics. So, we would have 2 mic inputs needed at all times. If you are familiar with this, correct me if I'm wrong but something like the Juicedlink setup which has 2 mic inputs, still only uses one channel of audio, due to the AGC correcting tone it feeds into the other channel; so you'd be getting two pre mixed channels of audio feeding into one channel on the 7D, you would not be able to monitor your results as they are going to tape, and you would not be able to separate them in post and balance the 2 feeds as they are pre mixed however it happened on set. . .?
 
@ Jambredz - true true. I am with you. I make up my mind on reviews all the time. So agree with you there. I've given advice now that I think about it without using something, but not often, but I do. So you're right. In fact I was going to get the Juiced Link but ended up not based on reviews from the forums. I was just more interested in actaully how much better the Marantz was and why. (answered below) I own the Zoom H4n and while not great I was wondering if I could get a better device then why. (answered below)

@ C2V - thanks man. Just what I needed. Some solid experience with advice.

@ cometsincaves - things that really made me decide against the juiced link 1) even after all it offers it still is going into Canon's sh**ty preamps 2) in all reality you are not monitoring the last part in the chain with the juiced link so basically you are trusting that all is well after the sound connection goes from the juiced link to the 7d. A standard in audio recording is always monitor off of the last part in the sound chain. (your recorder) 3) lastly it is plain better to have someone record sound correctly for a shoot.
 
Hey guys, just a few quick thoughts:

I record directly into the T2i for filming, which, on its surface sounds like a terrible idea. However, I use ML to set the T2i's pres to 0 gain, so I'm not adding any noise there, and second, I use an external portable preamp for mic amplification (ART USB Dual Pre). I find the pres on this to be just as good as the H4n, which a lot of people seem to like, and I don't have to sync in post. It's also quite cheap, as the preamp is only $70 with two channels of phantom power XLR or 1/4". Naturally this may not be an ideal audio solution, but I'd dare say it would go toe-to-toe with the Juicedlink or H4n. (Just to qualify, I don't have any personal experience with the Juicedlink, just many many reviews).
 
@ Psilocybe. Can you post examples? Would love to hear the results. I will import it into our edit bay and play it nice and loud.
 
@ draven. No probs at all man . C2V is THE man when it comes to sound. So i'd listen to him. For me personally, i dont need more than the Marantz, as my concentration is more on the cinematography side...when i need more its time to hire a pro sound person :) .
 
@draven, I could post a vid of no-signal preamp noise if you'd like--it wouldn't do very much good to do any dialogue tests as the mic have right now has a relatively bad noise floor that's quite a bit above that of the preamp. What are you using right now, draven?
 
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