Sony XDCAM EX

I frame

I frame

Sounds interesting. I thought only the I-frame actually records the pictures and the other frames are calculated, based on what changes.
Have you tested this?
Is there any source that scientifically explains it?

What happens to camera flashes?

I noticed, that fast pans had strange frames. Some details just were not in there.



I would very much appreciate someone posting still grabs of fast moving objects.

How is the 1080p24/25 mode looking? Is it filmlike or more like the 24/25f mode of the Canon?
 
It would be useful to also get a card image of that type of footage as well to bring into fcp. I found some weird ghosting of one of the test shots on the dv i forum, which seems to be closed to new forum members being able to post. I'd be happy to share the results here.

Gerry
 
daktulus said:
Sounds interesting. I thought only the I-frame actually records the pictures and the other frames are calculated, based on what changes.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's correct. The I-frame is a complete intra frame, and all other frames are calculated as changes from the prior frame. But they are imaged and stored as raw frames internally, so the camera knows exactly what objects do and don't occur on each frame. Then the compression is applied and, assuming there's enough bandwidth to account for all the changes, those changes get encoded and the whole system basically works.

What happens to camera flashes?
Click to expand...
Depends on how much bandwidth is available to the codec. If you're dealing with a largely unchanged group of pictures, then the flash might be rendered properly. If you're dealing with a largely-changing group that's already taxing the available bandwidth, then something like a camera flash can cause serious degradation across the entire GOP. More likely on lower-bandwidth formats, obviously, because you'll run out of bandwidth sooner if you have less bandwidth to start with (so, you'll see problems happening at 25mbps that wouldn't cause a problem at 35mbps, all other things being equal -- which in the case of XDCAM HD was true, but in XDCAM EX it's not, because the 25mbps and 35mbps modes use different raster sizes).

I noticed, that fast pans had strange frames. Some details just were not in there.
Click to expand...
Well, that could be, depending on if the codec was being taxed to the point where it couldn't resolve all the changes. But if that happens you will usually see an overall softening of detail or even blockiness to the image; I don't know that I've ever seen a case of objects just "disappearing".
 
gerry_C said:
I found some weird ghosting of one of the test shots on the dv i forum
Click to expand...
Ghosting may or may not be related to MPEG-2; I've seen ghosting on the JVC HD100 when the codec kind of fell apart due to using the mini35, fighting the moving grain pattern, and working in low light conditions -- it caused significant ghosting and double imaging. But I've never seen similar effects on a Sony before. If you use aggressive noise reduction in the Canons you can get ghosting and double images. I'm pretty sure the Sony is implementing aggressive noise control circuitry, so if ghosting results from that I'm sure people would want to know about it. But is it an mpeg issue? That I don't know.

Sometimes people think that something is ghosting when it's in reality just the result of a progressive frame capture of movement. For example, if you shot a fast pan of a dark tree against a white sky, you might see a ghosted image in front of and behind the tree (so, dark tree trunk in the middle and ghosted image on the left and right). That's not a problem, that's how it's supposed to work, that's normal motion blur. (but if the ghosted/blurred image was only on one side, as in the examples I mention in the prior paragraph, that's a whole different issue and would be something that needs further exploration).
 
This is always the risk in being a "first adopter" in any new technology product...The first ones off the line may have a bug or two that will be fixed in the later ones. The problem is (as is this case) when a product will fly off the shelves (as is this case), you either can't get one because of tremendous back-order ( starting to be this case), or soon the price will go up when Sony realizes it's leaving money on the table (as was the case with the DSR-300 which was discontinued when they flew off the shelves and out came the DSR-300a with a couple thousand dollar price increase). I'm taking the chance at being an Early Buyer now (as I did with the DSR-300) trusting in Sony to make it right if I encounter a problem. Don't have delivery on my EX1 yet, but maybe that's just as well while Sony takes a look at this.
 
Hi Barry,
What I saw was ghosting a non-panning shot and was very prominent when I viewed it downconverted to sd playing off the original xdcam timeline (via Kona card in fcp) and when I converted the the shot to sd in quicktime. The shot was a chart with back focus on one side and macbeth chart on the other, and after flipping the chart the ghosted image appeared and continued to follow the chart as he held it. The ghosting began when the camera was autofocusing after the quick flip movement and I wonder if there is any relationship to that and the fact that the initial vignetting in the pre-pro model Adam Wilt had tested was caused by autofocus, according to Sony.

Gerry
 
I looked at an EX at Midtown Video in Miami today. I was very impressed with the camera- color, filmlook, and I couldn't create any artifacts with fast movement that I could see. Not a scientific test, just my first immpression. The camera did exhibit the vignette effect in the upper right corner and to a lesser degree in the lower right corner at 10mm.
 
Schneider Optics will have Century lens attachments available in limited models for the EX1 in mid to late January (.6x and Fisheye). Full line should be available by NAB 2008.
 
thread too long

thread too long

This thread is getting too big.

Finding anything is impossible, plaese break up into seperate thraeds.

An extra thread comparing to HVX200 would be a good idea, instead of putting all threads into one.
Finding anything later is almost impossible and very time-consuming.
A "vignetting effect" thread would be a good idea, too.


PLEASE Barry S., instead of putting more threads into one, seperate them.
Don´t close this one, just encourage to open specialized threads.
Thank you.


BTW: where are the vignetting effect posts?
I´d like to see a picture of the effect
 
I haven't combined any threads, but I closed the other "shaggy dog" thread because we had two sprawling threads that had converged. If you have a particular question on a specific topic, like the current status of the vignetting issue, please go ahead and post a new topic question. We try not to micromanage the threads, but I'll help organize if it gets too out of hand. Right now, we only have a small number of users with EX1's--so they're posting their observations in a small number of threads. As more users get their cameras, they'll be posting more separate topics. At this point, you can keep an eye on Stevet's posts for current vignetting information.
 
Sony wants to control the grey market movement of the EX1 as the cam can do both PAL and NTSC.

As a result, from what I heard (not confirmed), your dealer has to register your camera with Sony. Then Sony will contact you and request that you fill up a customer survey in order for them to send you the other free SxS 8 gig card.

Again, I heard it through the grapevine, what Sony decided to do might be entirely different.
 
Very strong rumor/possibility that Sony is going to give out small Cash rebate for XDCAM -EX1 purchases made after Dec 1st.
 
XDCAM EX MAIL-IN REBATE

YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THE FOLLOWING CASH MAIL-IN REBATES WITH PURCHASE OF
PMW-EX1 AND ANY OF THE FOLLOWING PRODUCTS:

LMD-9050 9” LCD Video Monitor with HDSDI $250.00

LMD-2050WHD 20” WSXGA + High Grade LUMA Monitor with BKM-243HS $300.00

LMD-2450WHD 24” WUXGA High Grade LUMA Monitor with BKM-243HS $350.00

ECM-673 Short Electret Condenser Shotgun microphone $50.00

ECM-674 Short Electret Condenser Shotgun microphone $75.00

ECM-678 Short Electret Condenser Shotgun microphone $100.00

ECM-680S MS Stereo Shotgun, Electret Condenser $150.00

Effective December 1, 2007 through March 31, 2008
 
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Initial Impression:

+ Manual lens Hard stops on Focus !!.
+ Replaceable camera tripod plate.
+ On lens aperture control ring.
+ Indicator on battery

- Ergonomics is terrible while hand holding the camera with the grip.
- The eye cup could be bigger (If you are EVF person like me).
- The rubber covers on the headphone is so puny that, it will eventuall break off in less than 1 month. By the way, I already lost the SDI rubber cover.
- The Charger feels like its made out of $ 5 hollow plastic.
- no thread-hole on top of the handle for noga. Yes you can use a hotshoe adapter to get the thread-hole
but it will make the camera more front heavy. With today's 'flipper' adapter being more hefty, the last thing you want is to add weight on the front.
- I dont like the touch control on the top of the camera. Maybe I am paranoid, I think a static from your finger could fry the internal circuit board easily.
- The buttons and switches are tiny (my reference here is to the Sony Z1).
- I also dislike the pull/push manual focus ring. Say you want to switch from Full Manual to Full Auto, you can simply push/pull right ? Yes you can. But, what if you have a follow focus on the lens ?

Stay tuned, more test to come.
 
dxmetal,
I totally agree with all your initial assements. My feelings were the same.
Short of the vignetting issue, I got over eveything else. The image quality is really good.
Thanks for the images.

Please run the vignetting test.
 
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dxmetal,

I'm very interested in how hard you can push the MPEG-2 codec, before you get compression errors. In the case of the Z1, a fast pan could cause compression noise.

I assume that Sony has used an improved codec for the EX-1, but it would be interesting to do a fast pan and look at it frame by frame in 1080, 60i, 24p, and 720, 60p, and 24p, to see if there's a problem.

Bob Diaz
 
BobDiaz said:
dxmetal,

I'm very interested in how hard you can push the MPEG-2 codec, before you get compression errors. In the case of the Z1, a fast pan could cause compression noise.

I assume that Sony has used an improved codec for the EX-1, but it would be interesting to do a fast pan and look at it frame by frame in 1080, 60i, 24p, and 720, 60p, and 24p, to see if there's a problem.

Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

i put up raw footage of that sort here (720p24@35mbps):
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109613

it's hard to make this codec break up.
 
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