FS7: Sony rumored to release new FS7
- Thread starter Chris Langer
- Start date
I can't explain why some people get testier than others (well, I could but it'd be a long post that would begin with them not being loved as a child) but there are two marketing reasons.
One is that, a "significant upgrade" would usually have its own model number. Some folks have mentioned that the only reason C300 MKII became C300 MKII and not C400 was due to the immense popularity of the original C300 but that was an exception rather than a rule
Two, keeping the same "model name" such as 5D, 1D, A7, RX10/100, EM1 makes more sense on the consumer side where marketing matters more than on the pro side where really no one cares what F666, Red Apocalypse, Canon 500+200 is called. At the high end, people are far more concerned with the performance than the name. If a camera delivers the performance, it attains a "name". If Alexa was Ursa or vice versa, it'd not matter one bit, as long as people knew which was which.
In that respect, FS-7 MK II is likely to be an incremental upgrade. A major upgrade would be an entirely new camera and probably be named F-77, F9, etc.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
I don't think it would necessarily need a global shutter to use the sensor alone?
Maybe Sony has more F55 sensors than they know what to do with and a refresh of the FS7 that they could charge a premium for would be attractive to them. Apparently Netflix is stipulating rec2020 for production so a B Cam to an F55 would need to be compliant for that market. I could certainly see that being a reason for Sony to bring the FS7II out given the shear amount of Netflix-style production that is anticipated.
Maybe Sony will follow the pattern of releasing F5/55 level cameras, two years later produce an FS7 level camera based on the F5 level sensor, two years later refresh the FS7 but use the F55 level sensor and then announce replacements for the F5/F55 cameras. Rince, repeat.
bill totolo
Veteran
Anyone think Sony can phase out the F5 and let the FS7MKII fill in the gap between the FS7 and F55?
BarryLichtner
Active member
I don't take offense for goodness sake, and most certainly not violent offence - but clearly people are being ridiculous about what they think might be coming in this refresh. A new sensor? 4k 120fps? 6k downsampled to 4k? That's not trolling. It's disagreeing and pointing out the obvious.
The camera is already capable of recording wide gamut. It's just a firmware update to offer REC2020 as a selection.
I think the new camera looks great. I don't need it but would welcome the additional features if I was buying for the first time now. If my camera died tomorrow I'd get one. But it's not an upgrade your existing FS7 type camera. So no need for you to get your knickers in a twist.
EDIT: Although obviously if it has a new sensor and more framerates I'll be prepared to eat humble pie
There's a difference between disagreeing and rudely shutting anything down that doesn't fit within your definition of "small and incremental upgrade." Disagreements are fine, thats how people learn things. I'm happy to be wrong about my own predictions so long as people are polite about it.
Mitch suggested earlier that the FS7 II might not be a replacement for the FS7, which might suggest that there are some "significant changes." I don't care if there are or there aren't, I'm simply curious.
There's a great little article that Mitch wrote for AbleCine back in 2012 explaining the difference between the color filter arrays in the F5 and F55. The comments section is also interesting as Art Adams and Alister Chapman chime in as well. It's worth a read, especially since the wide color gamut "era" is heading our way.
(I can't quite figure out what fw 7.1 enabled in the F55 wrt the rec.2020 color space- as I assumed shooting in S-Log3/S-Gamut3 was already capturing the full possible color gamut... but since the release of the F5/55 I remember Sony marketing the F55 as rec.2020 capable and not giving that distinction to the F5.) Anyway, here's the link:
http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/01/sonys-pmw-f5-and-f55-defining-cfa/
digitalinnovations
Well-known member
That is also something I am curious about; I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that by shooting SLOG3/Gamut3 that we were capturing the entire range that the FS7 is capable of but perhaps the "2020" refers to an additional range for Custom modes and not Cine EI.
Harry Lime
Well-known member
Let's hope they integrated the extension unit electronics into the camera so you can output RAW without the $2000 dongle. The FS5 only needs a software key to output RAW (and it's lower on the product tree), so that seems like a no brainer at this point. Currently the FS7 with the extension unit comes in at about $11,000. For that kind of money I would just buy a used F5. But if the FS7II could do RAW out of the box at $9k it would be difficult to beat. And they should make it 16bit while they're at it.
I'd say, not likely. The basic "double-the-price" tier system would be ~
FS-7 @ $8,000,
F-5 @ $16,000;
F-55 @ $30,000;
F-65 at $60,000.
The Cine Alta line is four years old (albeit continuously updated, as I am often reminded), so its replacements might be due shortly anyway. Early in the year, I guessed at September-October but Sony has been dealing with the Kumamoto earthquake and a lot of new products, and not just Sony's own, have been delayed.
Rec. 2020 is processor dependent, provided a certain sensor performance is met. FS-7 must have a newer, more powerful processor or combination thereof.
As to global shutter, it is usually an integrated part of the sensor but there are workarounds, in effect if not in the concept, as well. For example, the new Olympus EM1 MKII is capable of 60 fps at 4K, which renders the rolling shutter effect virtually negligible. Then, there are dual - electronic & mechanical - shutters to negate the jello also.
Here's Phil Rhodes's piece on it in Red Shark. (Phil also posts here under his own assumed name)
http://www.redsharknews.com/technol...meras-eventually-have-to-have-global-shutters
Thanks DLD
Cant see the fs7 getting a mechanical shutter anytime soon
.. 2020 is a color gamut isnt it.. like 709.. so it would only be an option in Custom..? if slog3.cine is a bigger Color gamut than 2020.. then both the fs7 and the f5 can also achieve it.. with post production.. ?.. a 2020 LUT as Ben suggested.. or is it CFA dependent .. which would mean the fs7 II has a new one..? not statements.. but questions.. to those who know more than me..
Ben Scott
Veteran
As this is continuing and we've not moved on, I'll just state I don't feel I have been rude or impolite to anyone. Nor have I attempted to shut anything or anyone down.
But if someone is claiming that because a Sony stills camera downsamples its video from 6k to 4k it is easy to upscale that process to FS7 quality at an FS7 price point with FS7 reliability, or suggests because an A7s can shoot clean at so and so ISO that there is no reason the FS7 shouldn't be able to do so, or says they expect 6k and 4k 120fps at an FS7 price point - all of which have been said in here - then to state that these are almost certainly completely unrealistic wishes/demands is completely reasonable in my opinion. No need to take anything personally.
Anyway, I'll leave you all to it and see you on the flip side of the announcement. If I'm wrong I will happily accept any and all mocking that comes my way
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Liam Hall
Veteran
Good grief, give it a rest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and no one has to check with you to see if you're offended.
Back on topic:
My guess for additional feature on the mkII: it will now be available in a variety of colours.
"My guess for additional feature on the mkII: it will now be available in a variety of colors."
Dear Mr Hall
I find your comment to very offensive .. what exactly do you mean by "colors".. this will be race specific .. or gender .. your sailing very close to wind sir.. and quite probably committed a hate crime.. please keep these crass and hurtful comments to your self in future.. or i will be forced to contact the relevant authorities
Yours sincerely
Ms Beadlebum.. The Grove.. Chipping Norton..
Dear Mr Hall
I find your comment to very offensive .. what exactly do you mean by "colors".. this will be race specific .. or gender .. your sailing very close to wind sir.. and quite probably committed a hate crime.. please keep these crass and hurtful comments to your self in future.. or i will be forced to contact the relevant authorities
Yours sincerely
Ms Beadlebum.. The Grove.. Chipping Norton..
All this talk about BT2020, I was told by one of Sony's trainers at an FS7 event that the current FS7 would be capable of it. Going to be an exciting week for sure. Is anyone here going to NAB Show NY this week? Wonder if sony will have a prototype on display there? I'll be attending, if anyone else is planning to, maybe we can do a meet up of sorts.
I will be at NAB NYC all day Wednesday.
A general comment about BT.2020 unrelated to whether or not there will be any product introductions. Or what such hypothetical introductions might be. And more I cannot say.
BT.2020 is a broadcast standard incorporating a given color gamut as well as a broadcast 3840x2160 resolution. It would be useful as an output gamut in Custom mode. Custom Mode to Sony is for broadcast. CineEI mode is for "cinema" (in its broadest sense). SGamut3 is a wider color gamut than BT.2020 (not SGamut3.Cine, which is provided as a more manageable color gamut). So if shooting in CineEI mode, SGamut3 produces a wider color gamut which can then be constrained in post to a BT.2020 gamut.
In Custom Mode, BT.2020 output delivers a color gamut considerably wider than BT.709 facilitating HDR deliverables. It all depends upon how you want to shoot, what deliverables will be and how much time/budget is allocated to post. In a great many cases, shooting Custom Mode with one of the Hypergammas creates perfectly acceptable broadcast TV with much less post production than a CineEI Log workflow.
Looking forward to catching up with anyone who will be at NAB NYC. Hope it is a better show than last year but speaking with a number of smaller vendors, they are choosing to skip it because it is so expensive. it closely follows PhotoPlus Expo (which has taken on a video element) and there is another major show in Asia. And there are not curses in the English language to hurl at Javits Center.
Ned Soltz
A general comment about BT.2020 unrelated to whether or not there will be any product introductions. Or what such hypothetical introductions might be. And more I cannot say.
BT.2020 is a broadcast standard incorporating a given color gamut as well as a broadcast 3840x2160 resolution. It would be useful as an output gamut in Custom mode. Custom Mode to Sony is for broadcast. CineEI mode is for "cinema" (in its broadest sense). SGamut3 is a wider color gamut than BT.2020 (not SGamut3.Cine, which is provided as a more manageable color gamut). So if shooting in CineEI mode, SGamut3 produces a wider color gamut which can then be constrained in post to a BT.2020 gamut.
In Custom Mode, BT.2020 output delivers a color gamut considerably wider than BT.709 facilitating HDR deliverables. It all depends upon how you want to shoot, what deliverables will be and how much time/budget is allocated to post. In a great many cases, shooting Custom Mode with one of the Hypergammas creates perfectly acceptable broadcast TV with much less post production than a CineEI Log workflow.
Looking forward to catching up with anyone who will be at NAB NYC. Hope it is a better show than last year but speaking with a number of smaller vendors, they are choosing to skip it because it is so expensive. it closely follows PhotoPlus Expo (which has taken on a video element) and there is another major show in Asia. And there are not curses in the English language to hurl at Javits Center.
Ned Soltz