Sony reveals 1st NXCAM camcorder: HXR-NX5U
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Robert M Wright
Well-known member
If I was running Panasonic, I'd wait to see how the AVCHD cams from Sony (and presumably Canon) are received before introducing a replacement/update for the 150. My guess is that high res three 1/3" imaging chip AVCHD cams (from Sony and Canon) are going to just bury sales of the 150, and Panasonic will have to go to CMOS for their next three 1/3" chip AVCCAM offering, or become just a bit player in that arena, catering to the small but vocal crowd living in fear of jello (niche market).
Barry_Green
Moderator
Robert, you keep predicting the death of the 150, without seeming to grasp one factor that makes it absolutely unique -- it is 1/3" CCD. Where else are you going to get a 1/3" CCD camera? JVC's $7000 HMC700?
There's infinitely more to video than just the number of pixels on the chip. You keep saying the NX5 and the Canon will "bury" the 150, and that Panasonic will "have" to go CMOS. They've already GOT CMOS. They've got a hyper-sharp HMC40, and a hyper-sharp 1/3" HPX300.
They've already GOT those.
So why do they keep selling the 150 instead of converting it? Because people want a CCD choice! The HMC150's main calling card right now is that it specifically *isn't* CMOS. For those who want CMOS, yes they'll have plenty of other choices. But for those who can't deal with CMOS and who need what a CCD can do, where else are they gonna go? Exactly -- to the "last great CCD camera" on the market.
HMC150's doing just fine.
There's infinitely more to video than just the number of pixels on the chip. You keep saying the NX5 and the Canon will "bury" the 150, and that Panasonic will "have" to go CMOS. They've already GOT CMOS. They've got a hyper-sharp HMC40, and a hyper-sharp 1/3" HPX300.
They've already GOT those.
So why do they keep selling the 150 instead of converting it? Because people want a CCD choice! The HMC150's main calling card right now is that it specifically *isn't* CMOS. For those who want CMOS, yes they'll have plenty of other choices. But for those who can't deal with CMOS and who need what a CCD can do, where else are they gonna go? Exactly -- to the "last great CCD camera" on the market.
HMC150's doing just fine.
ATL Media Group
Veteran
So, basically Panasonic believes CMOS is better for lower priced and higher priced pro cameras, but not the one in the middle that Sony is targeting?
Um K.....
Um K.....
Barry_Green
Moderator
Sony has gone all-CMOS on anything that records to solid-state memory.* For anything that records to disc, they're all-CCD. All their high-end gear is CCD, like the F950, F23, F35, etc.
Panasonic gives you a choice. On big-chip cameras it's all CCD, of course, but in the 1/3" you can choose whichever one you want.
(and, by the way, while that "um, k..." makes it sound like you think I'm disconnected from reality and that everyone is universally acknowledging CMOS as the savior of the camcorder universe, have you looked into Sony's competition in 1/3"? They're ALL CCD. Canon, JVC, and Panasonic are making all their 1/3" handhelds in CCD, not CMOS.)
*(in pro/broadcast, of course; I don't know what they're doing with consumer cameras)
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
Let's see how many new HMC150s are being sold come summer (especially at the current price). I'm sure the 150 will have a market among those who won't touch CMOS to save their lives, but I'd be surprised if it does well otherwise, once the new Sonys (and presumably an AVCHD offering from Canon) have been out for a few months.
Right now (at least for a few more days), the 150 is the only three 1/3" chip AVCHD cam out there - and thus Panasonic has the market to themselves. That's about to change.
Right now (at least for a few more days), the 150 is the only three 1/3" chip AVCHD cam out there - and thus Panasonic has the market to themselves. That's about to change.
ATL Media Group
Veteran
Sorry Barry.. I just think you know the way for 1/3" to get clearer images is to go to CMOS, and if Panasonic also know it then we can guess that the next 1/3" Panasonic will probably be CMOS. Like I said... their 1/4" and their $9000 HPX300 is CMOS then it would ONLY make sense that they would make the next HMC a CMOS camera.
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
I do think sales of the HMC150 will get buried, especially at it's price point, within a few months.
Note though, that I mentioned I think Panasonic would do well to see how the Sony and Canon cams are received in the marketplace, before making a move.
Like everyone else, I'm guessing. The proof will be in the pudding. There's no reason for Panasonic to rush out with a new offering in some sort of a panic. HMC150 sales may hold up far better than I think they will. If not, and they do take a nose dive, then is the time to react, not now.
Personally, for my purposes, I'd sooner get an HMC150 than an AX2000. I love 720p60, and the 150 is a dang decent cam for that. Most folks seem to think 1080p is some sort of holy grail though, and the 150 is not going to look real hot, compared to the other cams, for that.
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ATL Media Group
Veteran
I'm with Robert on this. As much as I love the HMC150 I gotta say... It's days are numbered. Especially if Canon's next cam is also a CMOS.
Here's the thing... Yeah, the HMC is CCD. No rolling shutter issues. But if rolling shutter were really an issue then why did they release the HPX300 and the HMC40 as professional cams? To give users a choice of cameras with issues? Seems odd to me.... Seems like the released them because there is a market for a camera with a clearer image than we could get with 1/3" CCDs.
Hopefully Panasonic will release the HMC200 (or whatever they decide to call it) with the HPX CMOS imagers and the software fix for the flash banding. Now that would be a sock to the Sony NX sales.
Here's the thing... Yeah, the HMC is CCD. No rolling shutter issues. But if rolling shutter were really an issue then why did they release the HPX300 and the HMC40 as professional cams? To give users a choice of cameras with issues? Seems odd to me.... Seems like the released them because there is a market for a camera with a clearer image than we could get with 1/3" CCDs.
Hopefully Panasonic will release the HMC200 (or whatever they decide to call it) with the HPX CMOS imagers and the software fix for the flash banding. Now that would be a sock to the Sony NX sales.
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
What I think is sort of funny, is that most folks using cams in this class for professional purposes are delivering in SD far more often than not. When you view typical footage shot (in capable hands) with almost any HD cam using 1/3" imaging chips (CMOS or CCD - recorded as HDV or AVCHD), and properly downrezed to SD, there just isn't a nickel's worth of difference.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't know why you want the HMC150 to die so bad, but it would be great if you could learn to accept that just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that others don't.
Did you know the DVX100 is still on the market, and still selling? Why? Because sometimes that's what people want. Sometimes they want standard-def tape, and the DVX does a great job of it.
You might think "why, anyone buying that would be stupid, of course they should buy an NX5 or an HDV camera or ..." Well, the key thing is -- it doesn't really matter what you or anyone else THINKS should happen, all that matters is what DOES happen.
Lots of folks sounded your same note: "the HVX is doomed, the XHA1 is so much sharper, the Sony is so much sharper" blah blah blah. Go look through Craigslist at the available jobs, and count the number that are asking for an HVX, and compare that to the number who are asking for any of the others.
Point being -- you don't know what's going on in the market, you're postulating these grand theories of doom and destruction on perhaps the hottest-selling pro camera on the market, and -- you have no basis for it.
Barry_Green
Moderator
We all know that the only way to get that sharper image in 1/3" is to go CMOS, yes. It's pretty much the only reason to go CMOS.
So? Is that the only thing people want? Because if it is, then why is Panasonic even still in business, after offering "lower res" cameras than the competition for at least the last 10 years?
Did you know, for example, that the Varicam outsold the F900 by a factor of about 8 to 1? To listen to you guys, that should never have happened, because the Varicam was a lowly 720p-only, whereas the F900 was the high-and-mighty 1080!
Sometimes people buy products because it's the right product for them, and sometimes we're glad that there's a marketplace that's big enough to supply for all markets.
The EX1 is CMOS, and noticeably sharper than the HPX170 -- and not only is it CMOS, it's even 1/2" CMOS. But NBC went with the HPX170 and its CCD chips. Unfathomable, isn't it? Or maybe there's more to it than counting pixels on a chip...
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Exactly.
Which again begs why you think that more pixels is really all that important?
For the vast majority of the marketplace, I'd argue that it really doesn't matter. NBC News is happy enough with the 1/3" CCD chipset that they've made the HPX170 (same guts as the 150) their standard handheld camera.
Of course, if we listened to some of the folks here, all video cameras are doomed and within a year or two we'll all be shooting on just DSLRs.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Of course there's a market for that.
But do you believe that's the only market? Because that would be rather naive.
Of course, would it be silly to say that the Sony NX sales are, at this exact moment, zero?
And won't the Sony NX be utterly obliterated the minute the Scarlet comes out?
And won't the Scarlet be totally decimated the moment that the GH2 comes out?
More to the point, I guess the big question is -- why does it matter to you how many units any particular manufacturer sells?
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
I don't shoot professionally and I don't view anything I shoot at SD resolutions. I shoot to please myself, and nobody else, and view in HD. I prefer 720p60 for the smooth motion, and especially prefer it to 1080 line video that doesn't really resolve more than about 600-700 lines of detail anyway. I do like having the ability to shoot 1080 line video with detail that's worthy of recording more than 720 lines though, and do shoot 1080p with the HMC40 on occasion. I love the HMC40. In reasonably good light, it can do it all. I'd be interested in an HMC150 if the price tag was considerably lower, and if used prices fall considerably as a result of the new cameras being introduced by Sony and Canon, I may seriously consider getting one. If I do wind up getting an HMC150 though, I doubt I'll ever shoot 1080 line video with it.
8string
Well-known member
Barry, buy a beer on me... (G)... the reason I bought a 150 just a few months back had a lot more to do with price point, capabilities, and a bunch of other issues. While I *love* the features of this Sony, would I have bought it over the 150? Probably not. I just didn't want to go to that price point, and i ended up buying a fully equiped Mac Pro (used) with the difference. I really thought hard about the P2 machines, but the price point was not worth the difference for my shooting. So this is all interesting info on the Sony, and it will find it's niche, but it's all about a lot more than a bunch of features. I think the Sony has competition with both P2 and JVC at this price point. Both are formidable competitors and have large followings for good reason.
ATL Media Group
Veteran
I'd bet it was the P2 workflow that they based this decision on.