Sony reveals 1st NXCAM camcorder: HXR-NX5U

what bugs me about the ax2000 is its not just watered down on hardware. its watered down on software too! what a load of crap from sony. If they kept all the software features from the nx5, ax2000 would be a good deal. 24p on 60i. blegh.

unlike panasonic where they didnt water down the features from the 170 to 150. its almost the same except the recording media.

Now panny needs to release a new model of cmos cams (that should be an alternative to the ccd cams not replacement)
 
Seems to me that the difference (visually) between resolving about 600 lines of detail and 800 lines is a whale of a lot greater than the visual difference between resolving 800 and 1000 lines of detail (as typically viewed in a living room on an HDTV, or on a typical computer monitor). Getting 800 lines of recorded detail, out of a low cost camcorder with relatively small imagers, is quite dooable now (especially with CMOS technology). Achieving much more than 800 lines of recorded detail starts getting pretty expensive (with considerably diminishing returns, in terms of increased perceptible image quality).
 
Kellar42 said:
The only thing that bugs me about the HMC40 is that I see it being almost identical to an HFS100 in a somewhat more professional looking package, with the possibility of XLR inputs, and easier access to manual controls. A small, semi-professional package would seem perfect for someone like me, but I don't see myself getting better images for $1,100 more right now.
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An HF S100 can produce a great image, but the camera is considerably more limited than an HMC40. You really do have prosumer level image acquisition control with the HMC40, as opposed to very consumer level control with the HF S100. You also have every common HD format available with the HMC40, not just the 1080 line formats. 24p is genuine 24p with the HMC40 (not wrapped in a 60i stream, which horks up 4:2:0 chroma sampling). You also have a camera that just plain handles easier on the whole (very comfortable for shooting with). For a lot of purposes, an HF S100 is a fantastic camcorder, but it's not a pro level cam. Also, the price difference isn't as great as the raw sticker price difference would make it seem at a glance (currently $1050 difference at B&H). With the HMC40 you also get a an NLE that is quite suitable for editing AVCHD (for many purposes) and a Blu-Ray player, at no additional cost.
 
Firewire output

Firewire output

There doesn't seem to be a firewire output on the NX5U or am I missing something? I realize that with the other superior outputs that might seem unnecessary. However I use a DVD recorder to hand my clients review copies at the end of the session and I use a 13" laptop for set-up and client viewing. Neither has an HDMI or digital input other than firewire. Even the EX3 has a firewire option.
 
Camera Expert said:
The HMC150 is a much better value than the AX2000. If you want slow motion or if your shooting sports, your far better off shooting 720 60p. Having 720p modes are very significant. Another negative about the AX2000 is the fact that 1080 24p gets put inside a 1080 60i steam so your forced to remove pull down. Its embarrassing that even Canon's new top consumer camcorders has native 24p.

The current pre sale price is $3,500 at both Amazon and B&H and that's more than the HMC150 and even if it ends up being $3,000 it would still seams a little high for a gimped camera.
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It really depends on what you use the camera for. If you want to deliver 1080 line video on a Blu-Ray disk, the AX2000 is almost assuredly going to deliver a noticeably crisper image with finer detail. If you want to shoot 720p60, obviously the HMC150 is the superior cam (since the AX2000 just plain won't do it at all).

Personally, I'm not interested in a 1080 line only cam, but for folks that only shoot 1080 line video (and that's a heck of a lot of folks), I've got to think the AX2000 is going to look very appealing, especially at around $500 less than the HMC150.
 
lauritzenmedia said:
There doesn't seem to be a firewire output on the NX5U or am I missing something? I realize that with the other superior outputs that might seem unnecessary. However I use a DVD recorder to hand my clients review copies at the end of the session and I use a 13" laptop for set-up and client viewing. Neither has an HDMI or digital input other than firewire. Even the EX3 has a firewire option.
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No AVCHD cam gives you firewire output, which I think is unfortunate.

Component output would be just fine for outputting to a DVD recorder though. Downscaled to SD, you won't see any difference at all between component output and HDMI output (or any other digital output).
 
dcloud said:
Now panny needs to release a new model of cmos cams (that should be an alternative to the ccd cams not replacement)
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If Panny took the 1/3" CMOS imagers from the HPX300 and put them in a camera with the guts of an HMC150, I'd be interested real quick. R&D costs wouldn't be squat to do that either.
 
Robert M Wright said:
The NX5U relies on pixel shifting technology, but not nearly to the extreme that the HMC150 does.
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Sony doesn't use pixel shifting but interpolation. The DSP interpolates the extra pixels between 4 adjoining sensors in the diagonal array so the resulting pixel count comprises pixels in the centre location of the real sensors and interpolated pixels to make up the 1920x1080. This is true for all three imagers. A simplistic way of looking at the Sony array is to say the sensors are twice the size of the pixels, center square in the diamond shape, and the triangle corners that are left becomes a 1/4 of an interpolated pixel. Each of these 1/4's, from the other surrounding sensors, make up an interpolated square pixel. Of course there are no 1/4's but the DSP takes the data from the sensors and uses the data from 4 adjacent ( maybe more) to interpolate the full pixel array.

Ron Evans
 
Sony is taking a very different approach (in a number of significant regards) to their NX cams, than Panny has with the HMC150. Frankly, that's a good thing. It gives us genuine choices - which is just far and away better than if Sony simply offered up a clone of the HMC150.
 
Ron Evans said:
Sony doesn't use pixel shifting but interpolation. The DSP interpolates the extra pixels between 4 adjoining sensors in the diagonal array so the resulting pixel count comprises pixels in the centre location of the real sensors and interpolated pixels to make up the 1920x1080. This is true for all three imagers. A simplistic way of looking at the Sony array is to say the sensors are twice the size of the pixels, center square in the diamond shape, and the triangle corners that are left becomes a 1/4 of an interpolated pixel. Each of these 1/4's, from the other surrounding sensors, make up an interpolated square pixel. Of course there are no 1/4's but the DSP takes the data from the sensors and uses the data from 4 adjacent ( maybe more) to interpolate the full pixel array.

Ron Evans
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Technically, Sony is doing something that's a little different. The net effect is about the same. Essentially they use fancy math to generate more perceived detail than the number of photosites on the imaging chips. Pixel shifting, at it's core, is also about interpolation (using fancy math). They are starting off with a bit higher res imaging chips than the HMC150 though (which obviously helps). I don't care how you shape the photosites or how fancy the math gets - 960x540 pixel imaging chips are just an awfully weak starting point for getting to 1920x1080 images.
 
Robert M Wright said:
It really depends on what you use the camera for. If you want to deliver 1080 line video on a Blu-Ray disk, the AX2000 is almost assuredly going to deliver a noticeably crisper image with finer detail. If you want to shoot 720p60, obviously the HMC150 is the superior cam (since the AX2000 just plain won't do it at all).

Personally, I'm not interested in a 1080 line only cam, but for folks that only shoot 1080 line video (and that's a heck of a lot of folks), I've got to think the AX2000 is going to look very appealing, especially at around $500 less than the HMC150.
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The AX2000 still costs more than the HMC150 and even if it goes down to $3,000, the HMC150 will probably cost the same by that time.
Current B&H prices:
HMC150: $3,239.00
AX2000: $3,499.99

If your shooting in 1080 60i than yes the picture quality will be more detailed with the AX2000, but what if your final output is 24p? Removing pull-down does seam to degrade the picture quality a little. I'd say it's more like a toss-up if the final output is 1080 24p.
 
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The likelihood of the street price of the AX2000 being list price, is about zero, by the time it actually starts shipping.

That's a very recent price drop on the HMC150. Competition is a good thingy!

Degrading an image by removing pulldown has to do with what codec you use as an intermediate. You'd have to out-and-out butcher the footage with a pretty awful intermediate codec, to turn 800 lines of resolution into 600 (even with the horky 4:2:0 color from wrapping progressive footage in an interlaced stream).
 
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The HMC150's price has been much under $3,500 for a while now and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends of being $3,000 but all I'm saying is that the AX2000 doesn't have a real price advantage.
 
I could certainly be mistaken, but I think B&H had the HMC150 at still a bit over $3400 as recently as a day or two ago.

With a huge portion of the market for these cams being the wedding and event crowd, who tend to shoot 1080 line video almost exclusively, I've got to think that after the AX2000 has been shipping for a little while and the dust settles down a bit, the street price for the HMC150 may have to get well under $3k (like maybe $2700 perhaps) in order to hang onto a significant market share. That would get me pretty interested in it, for shooting 720p60. I was not interested at all, at $3500.

Does anyone know of some straight up comparisons of the 720p60 out of the HMC150 and out of the HMC40? Does the HMC150 deliver the same level of image detail that the HMC40 does, shooting 720p60?
 
I actually meant the AX2000 when I said that I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up selling for $3,000. I must of wrote it too fast. It'll still probably sell for around the same price.

Funny but I was actually thinking about the same concerning the AX2000 having to be priced at $2,700 to compete against the HMC150. I just don't see the AX2000 as being that much of a threat since it's very gimped.

I do agree with you that the HMC40 is a wonderful value for what it offers and I want one badly to compliment my GH1. That camcorder has much more in common with the NX5U than the AX2000 and it cost under $1850.
 
Notably lower resolution is quite likely to be the HMC150's Achilles Heel in the marketplace (even if it were to prove superior in every other regard). It won't take long before folks are posting side-by-side comparisons of 1080 line footage from both camcorders, and the difference in image detail is likely to be pretty difficult to miss.

I remember a few years ago, when the XH-A1 came out. At the time, the FX1 was really taking hold as the bread and butter cam of choice among wedding videographers. It didn't take long for the A1 to knock the FX1 off it's new throne, as cam of choice among that crowd. Some of that was because the A1 could shoot decent 24p (and Cineframe 24 just out-and-out sucked), but a lot of it was also the more detailed image coming straight out of the camera (in any format). On the whole, there just really wasn't a nickel's worth of difference between the two cameras, when you looked at the images actually being delivered on DVD to wedding video client's though. Arguably, the FX1 was perhaps the better cam for shooting weddings, simply because the LCD and viewfinders didn't suck quite as badly for pulling focus, and while the image was a little softer (before being downscaled to SD) the gain was cleaner. Either cam could downscale very nicely to 30p or 60i SD, and arguably 30p is better than 24p for delivery to general audiences. (Studies tend to show that most folks find viewing 30p footage more pleasing than viewing 24p footage - despite so many videographer's desire to imitate the look of film.)

I can easily imagine much the same thing happening here. When folks see about 200 more lines of detail coming from an AX2000, that's going to widen their eyes and get them salivating, even though when it's downscaled to SD you just won't see any real difference at all.
 
I think the cmos chips fit well on the 150/170 body... its wider, and has less zoom range which is better skew wise.
 
13th Judas said:
i don't need a new sony prosumer cam. i just want them to lower the price of EX1 to less than $4000.
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Don't hold your breath for that, but if you keep your eyes open, you can get a used EX1 for $5000 pretty easily (or a bit less if you are patient and diligently watch the classifieds real closely).
 
Holy buckets. The NX5U "street price" already dropped $500 (to a hair under $4k) at B&H and now the 128GB flash memory unit is $250 after rebate (way cheaper than SDHC cards)! At this rate, the cam and optional gear designed for it will be free, way before Sony can even get the first one out the factory door!
 
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