Sony PWW-F3 - $13,300 USD

Luiz R said:
Giuseppe, please read the comments here:

http://www.xdcam-user.com/?p=1136#comments

He shot those few tests with the 50mm Kit lense. There is a picture of the lenses and the camera he used here:

http://www.xdcam-user.com/?p=1123

I also heard these lenses use the same glasses of the CP.2 but are made of plastic and lack markers. Can't confirm the glasses though...
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I stand corrected, that is very good to know then, thanks for the info!

Oh and about the lenses, at 1,880 each thats a great price considering the CP.2 glass if thats the case. I really hope they allow you to buy them individually outside of the kit though.
 
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See my only concern with the confirmation of these being sony pls is that there is a photo of one of the cameras on set and it clearly shows that there is a CP.2 on there not a sony...

So I'm a little confused. Was there a second camera that had the Sony PLs, and if so why would they have the CP.2 on one and Sony PL on the other? Specially if they both use the same glass...

http://www.alisterchapman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/PMW-F3-2.jpg


Could someone else chime in? I know Alister said, but people do make mistakes sometimes, he could have remembered seeing that the Sony's were blue, and mounted on one of the other cameras not by the set, and then when he went to the set saw the blue and automatically thought it was the Sony Pl I'm just trying to get definite answers for sure. I dont like to jump the gun on information.
 
what would have been nice if someone had popped in their SxS cards into both and got us a comparison...aww :)
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
See my only concern with the confirmation of these being sony pls is that there is a photo of one of the cameras on set and it clearly shows that there is a CP.2 on there not a sony...

So I'm a little confused. Was there a second camera that had the Sony PLs, and if so why would they have the CP.2 on one and Sony PL on the other? Specially if they both use the same glass...

http://www.alisterchapman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/PMW-F3-2.jpg

Could someone else chime in? I know Alister said, but people do make mistakes sometimes, he could have remembered seeing that the Sony's were blue, and mounted on one of the other cameras not by the set, and then when he went to the set saw the blue and automatically thought it was the Sony Pl I'm just trying to get definite answers for sure. I dont like to jump the gun on information.
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Like he said, there was 2 cameras, one with the Sony lens and the other with the CP.2. So, the idea (SO IT SEEMS I CANT CONFIRM) is that Sony was trying to show that both lenses have the same quality… So I heard. Again, can't confirm about the glasses being the same.
 
Luiz R said:
Like he said, there was 2 cameras, one with the Sony lens and the other with the CP.2. So, the idea (SO IT SEEMS I CANT CONFIRM) is that Sony was trying to show that both lenses have the same quality… So I heard. Again, can't confirm about the glasses being the same.
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Ah now that makes more sense. Anyway the images look nice with those lenses, they are very nice and sharp from what you can tell at 4:2:0
 
xmephestox said:
people do realize this is the cheapest camera in the world to give you a s35 sensor and dual link 444 out right? this camera is out of control.
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It doesn't come with 444 dual link out. It's upgradable to that though, and yes it is the cheapest cam in the world to be able to do 444.
 
yoclay said:
At this price range, this camera just hit my radar.
Anyone know how much the 444 upgrade would be?
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Sony Europe "claimed" the dual sdi will be built in, and most likely will be a software update... i don't know if they will charge for that? Maybe Barry or someone else can shed some light into cameras that have done something similar. Either way, I bet the next Nanoflash will have a 4:4:4 option soon :)
 
4:4:4 can't be done on HD-SDI. In the past it's required two SDI ports chained together (called "dual link") and special dedicated hella-expensive recorders. There's a new standard that doubles the data rate of HD-SDI, called 3G-SDI. If they've built it with 3GSDI instead of two SDI ports, then I would presume that it would be more affordable than having to do the older dual link system. But, of course, that would also mean it wouldn't work with any existing dual-link recorders... I haven't looked at the pics close enough - does the F3 have one SDI output or two?
 
Barry_Green said:
4:4:4 can't be done on HD-SDI. In the past it's required two SDI ports chained together (called "dual link") and special dedicated hella-expensive recorders. There's a new standard that doubles the data rate of HD-SDI, called 3G-SDI. If they've built it with 3GSDI instead of two SDI ports, then I would presume that it would be more affordable than having to do the older dual link system. But, of course, that would also mean it wouldn't work with any existing dual-link recorders... I haven't looked at the pics close enough - does the F3 have one SDI output or two?
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It has two HDSDI outputs, and it will be 4:4:4 Dual Link from its release. Sony will also release its own external recorder to grab the Dual Link 4:4:4 into a single 1TB card using the HDCAM SR codec at 440Mb/s. A good picture here:

http://www.fdtimes.com/news/sony/sony-f3-35mm-handheld/

More here:

http://www.slashgear.com/sony-pmw-f3-super-35mm-camcorder-officially-announced-10113384/

And this video shows the camera itself in detail:

http://vimeo.com/groups/pmwf3/videos/16960857
 
Thanks for the links. Yep, that certainly looks like dual-link on the back. Which is probably the better choice than trying to go with 3GSDI, because it'll work with existing products today.
 
Barry_Green said:
4:4:4 can't be done on HD-SDI. In the past it's required two SDI ports chained together (called "dual link") and special dedicated hella-expensive recorders. There's a new standard that doubles the data rate of HD-SDI, called 3G-SDI. If they've built it with 3GSDI instead of two SDI ports, then I would presume that it would be more affordable than having to do the older dual link system. But, of course, that would also mean it wouldn't work with any existing dual-link recorders... I haven't looked at the pics close enough - does the F3 have one SDI output or two?
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3G-SDI is suppose to be a added in a future firmware update.

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/headlines/Sonys-PMW-F3-Targets-Indie-Filmmakers_12703.html

Future Upgrades

In addition to the RGB workflow, Sony said future software upgrades for the camera will enable 3G SDI as well as a 3D link feature that will allow easy synchronization of two cameras and lenses for stereo-rig operation. For documentarians, a new Sony-developed zoom lens will use the camera's proprietary native lens mount. (The camera ships with a PL-mount adapter.) There was no word on specific dates for the new features to roll out, but it's probably safe to expect something in demo form in time for NAB 2011, when the camera will presumably have been on the market for two months.
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I believe thats a mis-print. 3G-SDI is a hardware solution, thats the whole reasons why they built 3G-SDI in the first place because regular HD-SDI couldn't handle the data flow... So I'm not sure what that means, but a 3G-SDI connection as far as I know is impossible to do via software upgrade.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
I believe thats a mis-print. 3G-SDI is a hardware solution, thats the whole reasons why they built 3G-SDI in the first place because regular HD-SDI couldn't handle the data flow... So I'm not sure what that means, but a 3G-SDI connection as far as I know is impossible to do via software upgrade.
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If they planned on having 3G-SDI from the beginning then software update is certainly possible. The fact that this has dual-link HD-SDI SMPTE 372M capability means that it can handle dual 1.485 Gbit of data (2*1.485 Gbit/s=3 gigs/3G).

So this camera won't get "3G" on both HD-SDIs, but it can do definitely do 2.970 Gbit/s which meets the hardware requirements of 3G-SDI.
 
It might involve replacing one circuit board and then updating the software to get 3G. Either way I bet you have to send it in to get it done. I doubt they'd release update software like on the EX1. (Although those EX1 firmware updates have been pretty good and not difficult.)
 
Luiz R said:
It has two HDSDI outputs, and it will be 4:4:4 Dual Link from its release. Sony will also release its own external recorder to grab the Dual Link 4:4:4 into a single 1TB card using the HDCAM SR codec at 440Mb/s. A good picture here:
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption from Sony Europe the dual-link will ship but won't be enabled until april and they don't yet know if thats firmware or hardware upgrade. I know the ports are already there, but afaik they don't work yet.

edit:
" But with the optional firmware upgrade, due within a year, the F3 will also support full RGB 1080 23.98p, 25p and 29.97PsF recording with Sony's proprietary S-Log gamma. (Hyper Gamma will be available in this mode as well.) "

so i guess the dual-link won't work until april... odd... i wonder why they have to wait until april to make that work if its just software.
 
Yikes! That price is IMPRESSIVE. It's NOT in my budget, but this all adds to the ~downward pressure~ of the cost of cinema cameras. Please tell me that know one is EXCLUDING this from the "true cinema camera" category? This is very exciting stuff...even if it's not likely a camera that I will own in the next 3-5 years. VERY COOL. It will also add to the pressure for Red Camera company to deliver in the approximate window for their S35 Scarlet....and if not....there will be more F3 owners for sure! :) This is such a special time to be an Indie Film Maker....wowser!!
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
I believe thats a mis-print. 3G-SDI is a hardware solution, thats the whole reasons why they built 3G-SDI in the first place because regular HD-SDI couldn't handle the data flow... So I'm not sure what that means, but a 3G-SDI connection as far as I know is impossible to do via software upgrade.
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I understand that the new SMPTE standard (3G-SDI) has two flavors: levels, A and B. Only level B is compatible with Dual-Link HD-SDI, so probably this is the one that will be implemented on the camera. So SMPTE 482 level B allows you to go from Dual-link to 3G (and viceversa). Also from the pictures of the back of the camera you can see that there is an additional single HD-SDI output, separate from the dual link, so I assume that they will use the dual-link output to implement 3G without the need for a hardware upgrade (only firmware, and maybe a multiplex). What I still don’t understand is that in order to output 1080p 4:4:4 10-bit you need a pipe of 3.7 Gbit, so how can you do that if your maximum is going to be only 3 Gbit?
 
lexicon said:
What I still don’t understand is that in order to output 1080p 4:4:4 10-bit you need a pipe of 3.7 Gbit, so how can you do that if your maximum is going to be only 3 Gbit?
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The concept of "3G" was designed around the 3 gigs required for 1080p 4:2:2 10bit @ 60 frames/s. So even with 3G-SDI you are not going to get 60 frames of 1080p 4:4:4 10-bit., however, 3 Gbit/s is sufficient for lower frame rates.
 
vagarob said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption from Sony Europe the dual-link will ship but won't be enabled until april and they don't yet know if thats firmware or hardware upgrade. I know the ports are already there, but afaik they don't work yet.

edit:
" But with the optional firmware upgrade, due within a year, the F3 will also support full RGB 1080 23.98p, 25p and 29.97PsF recording with Sony's proprietary S-Log gamma. (Hyper Gamma will be available in this mode as well.) "

so i guess the dual-link won't work until april... odd... i wonder why they have to wait until april to make that work if its just software.
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Vagarob, I think your doubt is pretty common and is due to a confusion related to standards. The Dual-Link 4:4:4 will be enabled from release, but RGB and S-Log won't. Dual-Link HD SDI can be 4:4:4 YCbCr.
 
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