FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
If your clients are demanding different camera every other shoot why would you invest in a single system they aren't interested in? That is how it's coming off in your rant.
F55: Sony PL lenses - kits?? RANT.
- Thread starter FilmDude
- Start date
Viddovation
Veteran
Well, you do actually. As a freelancer, you're a business owner. You're responsible for selling your business' product - and for collecting accounts receivable. If something isn't profitable, it falls on you to make neccessary changes, not to blame a vendor (Sony), or your client.
Yes. Or don't take the job. Or buy a camera they actually want to use. Or go interview for a salary job.
Well, and having a wicked simple workflow that's cost effective. Which the F5 & F55 will have as well.
But the bottom line is this: go run your business like a business, and make business decisions that are profitable. If that means not buying Sony products, then don't buy them. A free market is self correcting, but it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was the RED Epic or the Arri Alexa. I actually bought an HVX200 after I owned a Sony EX1, not because it was a better camera - it wasn't - but because for a couple of years there, producers would ask for the HVX200 by name, and it was profitable to own.
Viddovation
Veteran
What is absolutely true is that technology is moving so quickly, making technology equipment depreciate quickly as it's superceded. But this isn't solely a Sony problem. Look at the Red EPIC which just took a $15k hit in value overnight.
I think it's incorrect to look at it as something that manufacturers like Sony are doing single handed. This is actually the result of the competition in the marketplace, not individual greedy companies. If the only large sensor camera on the market was the Sony F3, and the RED, Alexa, and DSLRs just didn't exist, Sony would have minimal incentive to produce a new updated product. Even with a litany of complaints and suggestions, they would get the greatest profit by selling the same model for as long as possible. And without competition, that could be a long time.
Take the SLog debacle. Sony only dropped the price on SLog to compete with the Canon C300. They did it because they were going to lose market share if they didn't. And they've released the F5 and F55 to compete with the EPIC and Alexa. This is the devil's bargain we entered when we encouraged the DSLR wars.
I'll agree the whole affair can be scary and concerning. Personally, I've come of the mind that it only makes sense to pay retail for a high end camera, if you buy it at launch, or when a new price break is set. Otherwise, you may not get the ROI the early adopters do. This is the reality we face.
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Isn't that the truth! I've adopted a stance that says, "If you can't amortize your camera purchase in six months (maybe stretched to a year) you'd better rent!"
MPB
Well-known member
for the record, i never encouraged anything having remotely to do with a dslr. :laugh:
the f3 was as close to the dslr paradigm as i've gotten, and that was reluctantly. as it turned out, i should have waited another 9 months.
and having said that, look how well the c300 is doing. <sigh>
the f3 was as close to the dslr paradigm as i've gotten, and that was reluctantly. as it turned out, i should have waited another 9 months.
and having said that, look how well the c300 is doing. <sigh>
Well I actually thought about that, but I ended up going with RED because its the name everyone knew, love them or hate them, they are cameras used on some of the biggest films ever made. You can't argue with that. Other reason was wanting 4K abilities.
I haven't had a problem with branding since I jumped ship from Sony, I guess thats why it feels like it really had a lot to do with them. Once I got into the whole RED game (and I believe this would be true if I went Alexa or possibly even c300) that the second I said I had a RED system, I was good to go no questions asked. But before that when I said Sony F3, I was always hit with a response that seemed downing and that reflected on me somehow, since I didnt own "one of the standard cinema" cameras that I for some reason would be less of a DP.
I know thats crazy talk, but its completely true, I am NOT a RED fanboy, there are things about the system that drive me batbonkers. But I tell you, it makes up for it in the name and image. I may have 1 stop less than my old F3 with S-Log, but I gained so much more that its worth it to me.
Oh well, I am however very pleased to see you all chiming in and making good points all around. Everyone situation is different, but I guess Sony has left a bad taste in my mouth with everything F3, including the lenses, and it just seems to be a repeat offense happening again in the future.
I jumped ship and immediately did better with clients, gigs, and overall abilities to simplify my pitching gear/tools. It's a much more comfortable zone to be in than when I was with Sony.
I will say this though, Panasonic... MUCH worse haha. They aren't even in the game anymore, and when I left them and went to Sony, I was super excited then, but now I see theres more. The final road I'm guessing for me will be an Alexa or F55 I dont really see any other camera having the options. I'm really reluctant to say F55 though, Alexa seems a safe better no mater what you do. Used Alexa might really fit the deal. But back on topic about lenses....
I still stand strong with my whole, Sony just allow people to buy the lenses they want. It's just the right thing to do. Specially if you want to grow as a lens maker. More useful 3 lens kits all around, means the potential to grow and get more lenses in peoples hands that will use and then spread the word. If all they wanna do is sell full kits, not many freelancers will be buying into that. Specially at those prices when its so closed to buying really nice name brand primes on the used market for the same cash.
The reality is that when you buy a camera system, you buy a clientele.
However, as RED owners have discovered, when the clients move on, they do it quickly.
So far the only camera system that hasnt suffered is ARRI.
However, when you own an Alexa, you dont put Sony glass on it.
I bought an F3 because I love the image. To hell with the clients. But that's me.
If RED does go to a larger sensor; they may have a nicer image, but they will suffer from an image problem.
But not the kind we are accustomed to.
The only glass that will cover is stills glass and the CP.2's (also Canon Cine stuff).
No more Master Primes, Ultra's or Cookes.
I see trouble on the horizon as a result.
If you want to know the exact moment that RED lost its kudos with many top flight clients, it was the moment it adopted an EF mount.
Guaranteed.
Never mind that it was good for us as imagemakers. Top dollar implies a kind of elitism that is antithetical to the democritisation of any medium.
Sony is never going to be ARRI. And they know it. Their strategies as a result have nothing to do with our way of thinking.
They are not interested in being Cooke or ARRI or Zeiss.
Just chew on that for a while when you consider how they are positioning their lenses.
However, as RED owners have discovered, when the clients move on, they do it quickly.
So far the only camera system that hasnt suffered is ARRI.
However, when you own an Alexa, you dont put Sony glass on it.
I bought an F3 because I love the image. To hell with the clients. But that's me.
If RED does go to a larger sensor; they may have a nicer image, but they will suffer from an image problem.
But not the kind we are accustomed to.
The only glass that will cover is stills glass and the CP.2's (also Canon Cine stuff).
No more Master Primes, Ultra's or Cookes.
I see trouble on the horizon as a result.
If you want to know the exact moment that RED lost its kudos with many top flight clients, it was the moment it adopted an EF mount.
Guaranteed.
Never mind that it was good for us as imagemakers. Top dollar implies a kind of elitism that is antithetical to the democritisation of any medium.
Sony is never going to be ARRI. And they know it. Their strategies as a result have nothing to do with our way of thinking.
They are not interested in being Cooke or ARRI or Zeiss.
Just chew on that for a while when you consider how they are positioning their lenses.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
That is the most inane thing I have heard on this forum, and that is saying something.
If your clients are not choosing to rent your camera based on the MOUNT it has, then there is something seriously wrong.
My clients don't know much less care what mount/glass/media I use, they just care that I get the shot, it is composed well and that it looks great.
Viddovation
Veteran
There's a sincere difference between being hired by someone who wants you to run a shoot, and being hired as a DP on a major shoot by a production company. If you're being hired by someone who does marketing all day, then yeah, they're probably going to not nitpick your process, and let you use your judgement. But if a production company gets a contract for a national commercial, a major artist music video, or god forbid a feature film or episodic television pilot - then you're probably being interviewed for the job by a producer who intends to actively manage the process and workflow.
Those situations are worlds apart. And let's be honest, the Canon EF mount was designed for still photo cameras. And the vast majority of glass it's suited to work with has autofocus and short manual throws, with no witness marks. If you're a one man band these are things you may be happy to work around, but when you're a cog in the production machine, and they're spending $250,000 per day, then an extra $2,500 in top tier PL mount equipment is nothing if it gets the job done better, faster, and more reliably.
Just came to visit the forum again after getting my hands on the F models and see what people are saying. Nice cams. Ignore some of the footage so far; its all about the peoples' taste using them at that time. Your results will vary. Anyway, as far as their new lenses go, they are quite nice to hold considering the price, big like red primes. I happen to know who's glass it is. It starts with a Z.
Simply not true. There are many jobs (like almost all of mine) where an EF mount will not fly.
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You misunderstand me.
It's not about me or my clients.
It's about reputation.
It's about why RED has had a steady decline against the Alexa on many major shoots.
Just ask the rental houses.
Most people think it's because the clients prefer the ease of use of the camera or a less complicated workflow than raw.
But actually it's because the Alexa has come to have that rarified and mysterious elite status, known as the "best".
Ask them why and they probably couldnt tell you, but when a client has the budget and wants "the best", I guarantee you the DP will be asking the next day for an Alexa with Masters, Ultras, Cookes or Optimos, not a RED with a Canon 24-105 L.
Own a RED with an EF mount? Your out of luck.
It might be screwed up, but that is the way it is.
The rental rates have dropped like a stone on the RED as access and ownership has grown, and that has also gone hand in hand with the introduction of the EF mount. It simply had become too complicated and expensive for owner/operators to buy, rent or find PL lenses.
But that has also had consequences for the reputation of the RED.
I know someone who just opened a rental house.
He doesnt want a RED or a Sony. He wants Alexa's, Masters and Ultras.
I asked him why he chose those things and he said he wasnt buying camera equipment,
he was buying a clientele.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
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You guys do realize that you can switch from EF to PL mount in about 90 seconds on a Scarlet or Epic right? I know a ton of guys who own both mounts (or even more) and have both PL lenses and EF, also exotic glass as well.
They like the options. Tiltshift lenses are MUCH easier to find for EF mount than PL... There is a lot of big shoots using tiltshift lenses that are mounted on RED Epic with canon or nikon tilt-shift lenses.
I think the EF mount didn't do anything but allow more creativity in the type of lens you could use. There are so really interesting lenses out there that could never be in PL mount or never be converted... Those lenses you just couldn't use without the ability to switch it up like that.
It's not the EF mount or workflow. It's simply a name game, trust me. Big DP's want to work with the same camera manufacturer that they trust for decades, not some hot shot newcommer. Alexa also has a simplicity in its ergonomics, but NOT in its workflow...
ARRIRAW is the same thing as working with any other RAW system, it eats drives, takes a beefy system to process, ect ect... The workflow if anything is actually more expensive and slower than RED's. I pop out my card, pop it into the reader and copy. Arri needs a codex box which is NOT built in and a seporate device all together. Then theres the Codex dock which you mount the drive too then use software to copy/color. Its not terribly different. But it's a much bigger system that takes up much more space and I've worked with it, its a little testy at times, and the colors you pay attention to on the buttons are annoying.
It comes down to, big DP's want the camera made from the same company that made their film cameras this whole time. They want the Arri name, they want the Arri knowledge and menu system.
RED's image can be intercut with Arri fine, it's just finding a recipe that matches the two. The big difference isn't an EF mount at all, its the fact that RED is basically a computer box with a lens mount. It's not DP friendly (or AC friendly). It can't run quiet, it doesn't like heat, and its menu system and accessories are a bit glitchy. I own a REDMote which controls everything on the camera remotely via built in wi-fi. The damn thing is $500 and only works half the time, it doesn't hold a charge well, and the range doesn't work well either. Stuff like that wont fly on a big film.
So no it has NOTHING to do with the EF mounts, it has everything to do with name and build. Arri's camera is as close to a film camera as they could get it, it can pop out of a box, throw a lens and battery on, and sit on your shoulder, RED systems, for the most part have to be built and started up, and all that. It's just not big film friendly as much as the Arri system is.
I'll tell you this, having EF on Alexa would actually make it even a bigger deal, DP's being able to use their own personal L glass telly lenses would be a thing.
They like the options. Tiltshift lenses are MUCH easier to find for EF mount than PL... There is a lot of big shoots using tiltshift lenses that are mounted on RED Epic with canon or nikon tilt-shift lenses.
I think the EF mount didn't do anything but allow more creativity in the type of lens you could use. There are so really interesting lenses out there that could never be in PL mount or never be converted... Those lenses you just couldn't use without the ability to switch it up like that.
It's not the EF mount or workflow. It's simply a name game, trust me. Big DP's want to work with the same camera manufacturer that they trust for decades, not some hot shot newcommer. Alexa also has a simplicity in its ergonomics, but NOT in its workflow...
ARRIRAW is the same thing as working with any other RAW system, it eats drives, takes a beefy system to process, ect ect... The workflow if anything is actually more expensive and slower than RED's. I pop out my card, pop it into the reader and copy. Arri needs a codex box which is NOT built in and a seporate device all together. Then theres the Codex dock which you mount the drive too then use software to copy/color. Its not terribly different. But it's a much bigger system that takes up much more space and I've worked with it, its a little testy at times, and the colors you pay attention to on the buttons are annoying.
It comes down to, big DP's want the camera made from the same company that made their film cameras this whole time. They want the Arri name, they want the Arri knowledge and menu system.
RED's image can be intercut with Arri fine, it's just finding a recipe that matches the two. The big difference isn't an EF mount at all, its the fact that RED is basically a computer box with a lens mount. It's not DP friendly (or AC friendly). It can't run quiet, it doesn't like heat, and its menu system and accessories are a bit glitchy. I own a REDMote which controls everything on the camera remotely via built in wi-fi. The damn thing is $500 and only works half the time, it doesn't hold a charge well, and the range doesn't work well either. Stuff like that wont fly on a big film.
So no it has NOTHING to do with the EF mounts, it has everything to do with name and build. Arri's camera is as close to a film camera as they could get it, it can pop out of a box, throw a lens and battery on, and sit on your shoulder, RED systems, for the most part have to be built and started up, and all that. It's just not big film friendly as much as the Arri system is.
I'll tell you this, having EF on Alexa would actually make it even a bigger deal, DP's being able to use their own personal L glass telly lenses would be a thing.
Thats one thing I really enjoy about my F3, the ability to go from PL to Nikon in under a minute is wonderful. While I only own Nikons, I can rent a Cooke S4 for $100 or for the rare occasion a Nikon 300mm 2.8 for $50. Friends that have the C300 are stuck to one or the other aside from the CP2's and new Canon cine lenes. Personally, if Im given a budget for rental PL's it's going to be Cooke, Arri or Angenieux. We'll see how good the new Sony lenses are in time but I can rent a Panchro right now for $70, at that price there is no deeper of a discount that would make me even consider renting a Sony PL or CP2. Their biggest appeal I assume would be to the owner operator who NEEDS to own PL but who's clients dont care what he's using and he can bill them for a rental.
And that right there is EXACTLY why I was ranting about the Sony primes. Who in their right mind would pick them over name brand and trusted quality glass? S4's go for 100-120 bux, how much cheaper can you rent a Sony PL prime for?? How would a rental company even make money off these lenses??
Which means these lenses should have been targeted to owner/ops but if thats the case then you SHOULD be able to buy only the lenses you want. Not forced to buy the whole kit. Point made lol.
Sony PL's rent locally for $36, for $34 more I'll take the Panchro. Last week a Producer/Director friend and I filmed a one day no-budget promo piece for his media company. Even when out of our own pockets we split the cost of renting a 50 and 32mm Panchro. I assume the only reason some rental house's have the Sony PL's is because they were "forced" to buy them with their F3 kits early on. It'll be interesting how many rental houses stock the new ones since their a optional purchase with the new F's. If they wind up being world class glass and rent for $36 they could be a cost effective option for a week+ long super low budget production where you need a whole set. But for one or two days, I'll stick with the big three.
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Yep, which is why the glass is for owner/operators and not rental houses.
I dont think Sony has any intention of competing with the big three.
This is about owning your own kit.
Viddovation
Veteran
These lenses may also do well with news stations, small production houses, and inhouse corporate video departments. I'm aware of news stations that have considered the F3 for special reports and investigative stuff. Think 60 Minutes style interview material - not spot news. These sort of businesses are likely to want to buy a complete turn key package, lenses included.
Agreed.
Now that I do see is a good spot for these lenses then, and that would make sense.