FS7: Sony in a C300III World

[ahalpert]

I like to think of the cameras as cinematic imaging systems for when risk is okay. Versus filming a once-in-a-lifetime exclusive one-cam interview with Jeff Bezos cameras. Or once-in-a-lifetime events (unless you have multiple cameras rolling).

Commercials - music videos - any film work without stars worth millions - events where you can just roam around and shoot freely - etc.

Weddings usually have a few cameras so they would work there too (and if they are all Blackmagics hopefully they all don't fail at the same time).

I think that makes a lot of sense and with that thinking the price/performance ratio is bonkers.

But I disagree about weddings - in my experience, there are certain moments where 1 camera will be getting the crucial shot (like the CU of the bride while she reads her vows) or the photographer jumps in front of 1 of your cameras and you need to use the other angle for the kiss so it better be usable. I don't have the stones to use a BM camera on a wedding. But I mostly shoot them for other companies, so my employers will be reviewing the footage. Maybe it would be a different story if only the finished edit were being seen. And, of course, everything besides the formalities is a different story and you can shoot multiple takes.

I think the only posts I've seen requesting BM cameras is the indy stuff, but in those cases it's like the only brand they want.

 

[NorBro]

It's all relative. There are different ways to work. Different expectations.

Some people used to film weddings with just one camera and get what they can get. (And that was clear and agreed upon with the couple.)

Others always make sure there is a static wide safety camera somewhere overhead filming everything.

Wedding films are more advanced these days, but I think most people are pretty reasonable if you create them an overall great product because chances are other people are filming with their phones or pictures are enough to capture some moments that video didn't.

[But I do also imagine there are those who demand every frame to be captured or they aren't paying.]

 

[ahalpert]

It's all relative. There are different ways to work. Different expectations.

Some people used to film weddings with just one camera and get what they can get. (And that was clear and agreed upon with the couple.)

Others always make sure there is a static wide safety camera somewhere overhead filming everything.

Wedding films are more advanced these days, but I think most people are pretty reasonable if you create them an overall great product because chances are other people are filming with their phones or pictures are enough to capture some moments that video didn't.

[But I do also imagine there are those who demand every frame to be captured or they aren't paying.]

Agreed - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm shooting my 3rd wedding later this year where I'm hired by the couple. Been shooting weddings for like 5 years as a freelancer on the rosters of other companies. I don't want to be known as the guy who gets great footage but randomly misses shots. Most of the other shooters for these companies are rocking Sony cameras for the low-light/AF and I don't really like the skin tones I see in their videos but the clients don't seem to mind. I've made the mistake in the past of prioritizing aesthetic over form factor and functionality.

Also, most of my wedding clients don't want to grade and want a good image SOOC. And my most high-end boutique wants me to shoot in 28mbps (1080 60p) to keep file sizes down lol.

Here's a wedding I shot solo and edited directly for the couple on the GH5, C300, 5Dmk3, and Phantom 4 Advanced. I'm not unhappy with the image although there are some blown highlights in windows and background streams, I wish all my cameras had the FF look, and the color is a bit less subtle than the BM look. Of course, it is mostly ungraded and SOOC so I suppose that some of those issues could have been fixed with more editing time. Now I have the S1 and can get the FF look, more DR and better low-light on my gimbal cam.

But generally I think the best shots in it as far as the couple is concerned are just from capturing emotions in the right place and right time, which is why I would worry so much about camera failure for a shoot like this (plus buzzing between 3 unmanned cameras during the ceremony that are hopefully still shooting while you're not there).

 

[NorBro]

I'm sure they love it, lots of nice shots.

If you like the full-frame look, maybe the medium format look is next for you:

 

[ahalpert]

I'm sure they love it, lots of nice shots.

If you like the full-frame look, maybe the medium format look is next for you:

Honestly that's a great look right there. And the colors and skin tones are simply gorgeous.

I'd be happy to shoot medium format, but I feel like I couldn't currently make it pay more to justify the upgrade and there's less of a need for that in my interview and commercial shoots. (Well, maybe for interviews it'd be cool.)

But my main sticking point is all the EF glass I have that I adapt to everything when needed. Replacing that glass in medium format would be hugely expensive and I'm not sure the video specs are even on par. A smarter business investment for me would probably be an FX9 or a C300MK3 or maybe C500MK2.

But a cheap camera like a pocket 4k is easier to justify if it would simply improve my output.

Lol wow just checked and that's a $33k camera that shoots 4k 30p. The GFX 100 is $10k and shoots 4k 30p. Full frame is a sweet spot.

 

[NorBro]

Visually, there's no camera that's worth more than $3,000 or so to me until photos start to look like they are moving.

Everything else is just a bundle of features that I'd be paying for to complete a job or make it easier (AF, IBIS, a lot of information being captured, sensor size for the desired look, etc).

 

[ahalpert]

Right well it's a business first right and the fees have to justify the cost. Another reason to love my S1.

What does photos start to look like they're moving mean? RAW stills quality in video?

 

[NorBro]

Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between high-quality RAW and JPEGs - so RAW, visually, in my analogy is irrelevant (and it's more for post).

I just want my video quality to look like high-end photo quality...with motion.

 

[ahalpert]

Most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between high-quality RAW and JPEGs - so RAW, visually, in my analogy is irrelevant (and it's more for post).

I just want my video quality to look like high-end photo quality...with motion.

I agree with that goal.

Right but you need the RAW information to create the finished product. The delivery format can be 8-bit and low-res. Same with watching a Hollywood movie on your phone.

Of course, lighting control is probably the key ingredient to high end photography, and they have a massive advantage in being able to output way more light in a flash/strobe per weight, bulk, and cost of light source than we can with continuous light. Look what they can do with just a bounced on-camera flash. And they can shoot 12- or 14-bit files at low ISOs to boot.

 

[Grug]

Visually, there's no camera that's worth more than $3,000 or so to me until photos start to look like they are moving.

Everything else is just a bundle of features that I'd be paying for to complete a job or make it easier (AF, IBIS, a lot of information being captured, sensor size for the desired look, etc).

This is precisely why I find myself so drawn to the C500ii (and now the C300iii) in particular.

- It's small (so easier to haul around and manage)
- It turns on in 4 seconds (so no more waiting for anything to boot before you can start finding a frame or capturing)
- 5-steps of internal ND (2, 4, 6, 8, 10), so you only need to carry a single 0.3 ND around with you for complete exposure control. And you can do without a mattebox in a bunch of circumstances.
- Built-in professional XLR inputs (for times when you need sync sound)
- Built-in scratch microphones (for times when you don't)
- One universal media for both compressed and raw recording
- Internal raw recording
- SDI outputs (for simple, reliable monitoring)

I really don't care all that much about camera sensors anymore - they're all sufficient for my needs. The Alexa's extra highlight latitude does make my life easier lighting-wise, so that's always my first preference, but I can get by just fine with all the rest.

It's having the feature-set that saves me time ON set that really makes the difference to me these days. And the new Canons are really exciting on that front. Sony's Venice matches most of them (and beats them in ND functionality and recording formats), but it is significantly larger and heavier.

I just really wish Canon had given us 1/2/3/4/5 stops of ND rather than 2/4/6/8/10. That would save more time overall, and give us better precision in setting exposure.

 

[ahalpert]

This is precisely why I find myself so drawn to the C500ii (and now the C300iii) in particular.

It's become clear to me reading these forums how a great camera can be wrong for the type of shooting someone does.

The permanent shoulder-mount guys like the Sony form.

Guys who shoot zooms and long lenses a lot don't want full frame.

The full frame 6K sensor will be sharper and have lower noise. And apparently even without DGO the C500mk2 still has a touch more DR than the C300mk3.

No camera is perfect for me if it can't go on my Ronin-s with a midrange zoom so I can gimbal all day if I want and easily get to high angles.

In any case, personally I won't be upgrading until client needs demand it. My FS7 has codecs that will be marketable to my clients for the foreseeable future.

 

[Guest]

It's become clear to me reading these forums how a great camera can be wrong for the type of shooting someone does.

The permanent shoulder-mount guys like the Sony form.

Guys who shoot zooms and long lenses a lot don't want full frame.

The full frame 6K sensor will be sharper and have lower noise. And apparently even without DGO the C500mk2 still has a touch more DR than the C300mk3.

Haha! This is a pretty great summary. Should be a sticky!

No camera is perfect for me if it can't go on my Ronin-s with a midrange zoom so I can gimbal all day if I want and easily get to high angles.

In any case, personally I won't be upgrading until client needs demand it. My FS7 has codecs that will be marketable to my clients for the foreseeable future.

You fly the Fs7 on a Ronin S? Have pics?

 

[ahalpert]

Haha! This is a pretty great summary. Should be a sticky!


You fly the Fs7 on a Ronin S? Have pics?

No, that's why the FS7 is not my dream camera (among other reasons). Honestly, I'm not a huge FS7 fan but it's the right camera for my clientele.

I fly the S1 and before it the GH5 on my Ronin-S and I fricking love doing it.

 

[Guest]

Gotcha. Was a weird juxtaposing of comments.

Now that auto focus is good in video, and small cameras image quality is up there, i have to agree, the Ronin S is amazing. A few years ago so a guy flying the early stuff, and he was obviously freed up to get whatever shots he could dream up.

I enjoy the EVF immersive feel and being connected to the camera, whether by tripod or handheld or steadicam. It is selfish, but i just enjoy shooting that way. The Ronin S can run circles around me, both figuratively and literally.

There is a cool product coming out for the Ronin S. Not sure if Covid will delay it, but we got some cool shots with it. A fun addition to the tool box.

 

[Guest]

Oh, and yeah, Fs7 is a clients camera. I’ve never liked it either. S1H is about the closest the camera companies have go to my personal use camera preference.

But work is work. I’ll shoot on anything for work.

 

[Grug]

It's become clear to me reading these forums how a great camera can be wrong for the type of shooting someone does.

The permanent shoulder-mount guys like the Sony form.

Guys who shoot zooms and long lenses a lot don't want full frame.

The full frame 6K sensor will be sharper and have lower noise. And apparently even without DGO the C500mk2 still has a touch more DR than the C300mk3.

No camera is perfect for me if it can't go on my Ronin-s with a midrange zoom so I can gimbal all day if I want and easily get to high angles.

I think that sums it all up rather succinctly.

 

[ahalpert]

Gotcha. Was a weird juxtaposing of comments.

Now that auto focus is good in video, and small cameras image quality is up there, i have to agree, the Ronin S is amazing. A few years ago so a guy flying the early stuff, and he was obviously freed up to get whatever shots he could dream up.

I enjoy the EVF immersive feel and being connected to the camera, whether by tripod or handheld or steadicam. It is selfish, but i just enjoy shooting that way. The Ronin S can run circles around me, both figuratively and literally.

There is a cool product coming out for the Ronin S. Not sure if Covid will delay it, but we got some cool shots with it. A fun addition to the tool box.

Now I'm the one who's confused - how are you using an EVF on a gimbal? (Though I've looked into head-mounted EVFs that I could use with a gimbal, which would be awesome. I've seen some do it.) I love sticking my eye in there too, although I'm not often positioned to do it and I don't own an independent EVF either.

What is this cool product? Or did you sign an NDA?

Good auto focus is the one thing I'm lacking lol. But I have a Ronin focus motor and a 7" monitor so i can pull on the gimbal and get good results with a bit of effort. With shallot DOF, following a subject in motion or tracking in on an object would definitely be easier/better for me with AF. But with MF I can rack from one subject to another, I always know what should be in focus, I can rack all the way out of focus... I love that focus motor set-up and I would probably keep it even with a good AF camera and switch between focus modes. Maybe the Sony A7S3 will give me good AF, or maybe a Canon camera... if I stick with the FS7, then an A7S3 seems like a great B cam to market with it.

The BM pocket on the Ronin-s would be a stellar combination methinks. But NorBro has confirmed for me that it randomly creates image artifacts and static.

 

[Run&Gun]

Now I'm the one who's confused - how are you using an EVF on a gimbal? (Though I've looked into head-mounted EVFs that I could use with a gimbal, which would be awesome. I've seen some do it.) I love sticking my eye in there too, although I'm not often positioned to do it and I don't own an independent EVF either.

What is this cool product? Or did you sign an NDA?

Good auto focus is the one thing I'm lacking lol. But I have a Ronin focus motor and a 7" monitor so i can pull on the gimbal and get good results with a bit of effort. With shallot DOF, following a subject in motion or tracking in on an object would definitely be easier/better for me with AF. But with MF I can rack from one subject to another, I always know what should be in focus, I can rack all the way out of focus... I love that focus motor set-up and I would probably keep it even with a good AF camera and switch between focus modes. Maybe the Sony A7S3 will give me good AF, or maybe a Canon camera... if I stick with the FS7, then an A7S3 seems like a great B cam to market with it.

The BM pocket on the Ronin-s would be a stellar combination methinks. But NorBro has confirmed for me that it randomly creates image artifacts and static.

I think he’s saying he prefers operating with an EVF and even though someone can run circles around him with the gimbal, he’d still prefer to shoot handheld/sticks with a cam with a VF.

I’m a VF guy, too. It’s probably one of the reasons I’ve always felt a little detached when operating Steadicam or gimbal.(I’m not a Steadicam op, but I’ve been to the workshops several times. It was always kind of my aspiration, but I waited too long).

Side note: my Steadicam Steadimate-S system for my Ronin-S just came in. Playtime after lunch!

 

[markfpv]

Side note: my Steadicam Steadimate-S system for my Ronin-S just came in. Playtime after lunch!

Oh sh*t, I was looking for something like this to combine my Steadicam Pilot with my Ronin SC... not trying to derail the thread - but please report back how "playtime" went...

 

[ahalpert]

I think he’s saying he prefers operating with an EVF and even though someone can run circles around him with the gimbal, he’d still prefer to shoot handheld/sticks with a cam with a VF.

I’m a VF guy, too. It’s probably one of the reasons I’ve always felt a little detached when operating Steadicam or gimbal.(I’m not a Steadicam op, but I’ve been to the workshops several times. It was always kind of my aspiration, but I waited too long).

Side note: my Steadicam Steadimate-S system for my Ronin-S just came in. Playtime after lunch!

Yeah, I get that. It's just I can do things on gimbal I can't otherwise do, though i wouldn't call myself a steadicam op. These days I find myself building both a gimbal and a tripod rig and alternating between them all day. Or, less often, being handheld all day.

Let me know how the steadimate treats you! Bobbing my Z axis is one of the gimbal problems I have and basically I can't make it work for macro type shots and still need a slider then.