I had a new 790 digibeta and it was the best thing finically I've ever done.. used it solidly for 15 years.. paid for the house literally .. its all timing I guess.. if you bought right at the end of SD .. yes you would be in trouble..but yes for our generation a camera like that.. even body only .. no licenses etc.. sounds a bargain .. for the DP,s with regular work in that market .. I would think its would be a good investment .. if they are not tied to rental Arri,s ..
Other: Sony full frame unveiled, named "VENICE"
- Thread starter starcentral
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I had a new 790 digibeta and it was the best thing finically I've ever done.. used it solidly for 15 years.. paid for the house literally .. its all timing I guess.. if you bought right at the end of SD .. yes you would be in trouble..but yes for our generation a camera like that.. even body only .. no licenses etc.. sounds a bargain .. for the DP,s with regular work in that market .. I would think its would be a good investment .. if they are not tied to rental Arri,s ..
Damn, The Dig looks really, really good. Props to Sony.
What lenses were used on that film?
I wonder how much color correction was done? I would image they'd leave it closer to out-of-camera to show off the actual color science, but who knows.
Hopefully Venice color science will make it into Sony's lower end cameras.
What lenses were used on that film?
I wonder how much color correction was done? I would image they'd leave it closer to out-of-camera to show off the actual color science, but who knows.
Hopefully Venice color science will make it into Sony's lower end cameras.
Cameras are like the old magazine subscriptions. To get cash flow, they shipped the issue as soon as they could. You'd get the December Christmas issue in September. Ok, it makes sense on their side. But what's in it for the user? Why would you get this camera before August without FF?
starcentral
Veteran
@2:30 Peter C from Sony says, the sensor block can be changed in the field to adapt to other workflows including "ultra high frame rates" , "monochrome" whatever they deem necessary down the road.
@4:50 Peter says the max for this sensor shipping in Venice has a max of 60p, and that in the future by changing the sensor they would be able to do higher frame rates. etc..
So getting above 60p isn't a matter of being unlocked via firmware, it sounds like in this case an entirely other sensor block would be needed. Good / bad.
Very interesting the modularity of Venice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_F6fNlVLUk
@4:50 Peter says the max for this sensor shipping in Venice has a max of 60p, and that in the future by changing the sensor they would be able to do higher frame rates. etc..
So getting above 60p isn't a matter of being unlocked via firmware, it sounds like in this case an entirely other sensor block would be needed. Good / bad.
Very interesting the modularity of Venice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_F6fNlVLUk
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Nate Weaver
Veteran
Hey Gene. Master Anamorphics
Not a ton. I played with a Resolve rig after the presentation loaded up with a lot of shots from the short. Everything in that Resolve rig looked very similar with all nodes zeroed out. They did have ACES on on that system I played with, and like I said, it all looked very close to what you saw in the film.
macgregor
Veteran
starcentral
Veteran
XAVC and MPEG to SXS, anything RAW requires R7. You can see the different formats by media on the spec sheet in the first post.
They shot this at my property... www.rockybuttes.com
Were you spying from the hills? Did you notice if they actually shot it with RED or Alexa?
macgregor
Veteran
Were you spying from the hills? Did you notice if they actually shot it with RED or Alexa?
Certeainly what you see int he BTS footage is all authentic.
starcentral
Veteran
What's your impression on the footage Macgregor, any thoughts? (as it relates to F35 or F65)
Samuel H
Major Contributor
(this camera is so far away above my level that I'll just talk about some minor technical things)
The sensor is not the a9 one (that one doesn't do 16-bit, just 14-bit) but it must be a very close relative: the resolution and frame rate options of VENICE are almost identical to what I would have guessed about the result of putting the a9 sensor in a pro video body.
Also, regarding the talk from a few pages back about whether photosites are actually bigger or not: dividing sensor width by number of pixels gives you the pixel pitch, but that's just the upper bound for pixel size, there are usually transistors taking up some area, and there are several ways you could end up with bigger pixels even if the pixel pitch is the same: making those transistors smaller (using a smaller production process) or moving them to the other side of the sensor (a BSI design). Still, I think pixel size must be about the same as in 4k S35 cameras, and the "photosites are bigger" observation comes from somebody following a "FF usualy means bigger pixels" argument and not doing the actual math.
The sensor is not the a9 one (that one doesn't do 16-bit, just 14-bit) but it must be a very close relative: the resolution and frame rate options of VENICE are almost identical to what I would have guessed about the result of putting the a9 sensor in a pro video body.
Also, regarding the talk from a few pages back about whether photosites are actually bigger or not: dividing sensor width by number of pixels gives you the pixel pitch, but that's just the upper bound for pixel size, there are usually transistors taking up some area, and there are several ways you could end up with bigger pixels even if the pixel pitch is the same: making those transistors smaller (using a smaller production process) or moving them to the other side of the sensor (a BSI design). Still, I think pixel size must be about the same as in 4k S35 cameras, and the "photosites are bigger" observation comes from somebody following a "FF usualy means bigger pixels" argument and not doing the actual math.
This camera seems to be a winner in so many levels. Sony has to be given credit for at least having their heart in the right place this time. If the camera doesn't deliver it won‘t be for lack of trying to do the right thing. Although based on The Dig, it seems it will deliver.
About the image not being similar to the F35, it's important to remember the F35 is a unique concept. It has several characteristics which help make its image that are not present in Venice or any other 35mm digital motion picture camera. Being a CCD, being Full RGB as well as being a global shutter is enough differentiation from Venice. The image will not have the same feeling. I‘m inclined to see the Venice as more of an improved F65 than a F35 throwback. I think the image is more F65 than F35. But it looks good.
It‘s also clear Sony is taking a few pages from the ARRI book here. It‘s a whole new concept for them and in so many ways it is so „Un-Sony“. Starting with an actual name instead of letters and numbers. Sony seems to have swallowed their pride and admitted that they can‘t be a broadcast company if they want to play in the cinema sandbox. The Cinealta division has to become a cinema entity like ARRI or Panavision. They finally seem to be moving towards that. That‘s a very good thing. I think this camera will be way more successful than the F65.
What I like:
*The whole concept. It seems that Sony is at least trying to get it.
*Like the F35 and F65, this is a focused cinema camera. A true cinema camera made for cinema. Not a camera that tries to be an event camera, news camera, broadcast camera, TV camera and cinema camera all at the same time. Focused is great. The only other cameras like that currently in production are the Alexas.
*Resolution. 6K at full frame is near perfect. No reason to sacrifice pixel quality for more resolution. This restraint alone to me is the most positive part of this camera. Because it shows Sony is willing to do what is necessary instead of all that is possible . A focused camera is great.
*The size. Darn perfect. Not too small but also not a large beast. I have always said the F55 was close to the perfect size. Venice has a great form factor. If it balances well on the shoulder the shape is a winner.
*I like that the mount is not an adapter. It is a solid exchangeable mount. It gives the same flexibility of an adapter mount without the flimsiness. Perfect solution.
*The ND filters option is great and very welcome. About the only thing I miss with the F35.
*Sensor flexibility. Full frame, S35, 4:3 for 2x anamorphic and swapable sensor block. Great!
*ISO 500. Yes, like this. Again the restraint shows Sony has their heart in the right place. Maybe this will mean a return to good form for cinema where they will actually start to „light“ again. Budget cinema has been looking like TV shows or student movies for a while now. Nobody seems to be lighting. So many decent budget movies looking low budget. The indecently high ISOs let you get away with anything. Let the TV cameras have the indecently high ISOs and allow Venice to be a focused theatrical camera. ISO 800 would have been fine as well. But 500-800 is the sweet spot for me and I tend to favor ISO 500 because this is what the fastest film stock is. I somehow don‘t think it‘s a coincidence Venice is rated at ISO 500.
*No HFR. This is way better thinking than adding 240fps cropped in my opinion. Let the camera be great in everything it does and if it won‘t be great, then don‘t add it to clutter the camera. Spare it from having an extra item in its Cons list. 99.99% of cinema is not done in HFR. Venice is a theatrical camera. They can rent a high speed camera for that 0.01%.
*I like that they chose to go with the grey from the F35 and F65. This has been the Cinealta color scheme for ultra high end cameras for a while now. Leave the all black for the TV cameras. Although looking at the BTS shots of the short film, it seems they had gone with black first, as there are all black Venice cameras being used by Miranda. I guess they realized this being a continuation of the F35 and F65 lineage they should stick with the grey. It also sets it apart from the cheaper cameras. Sony needs differentiation for their ultra high end cameras if they are to compete head to head with ARRI. ARRI doesn‘t sell a $5K consumer-ish camera. Alexa has no poor cousin. Perception and company image is everything. Hopefully by the time the camera is out they will also have a grey version of the R7 to go with it. It would make it more seamless and integrated.
What I don‘t like:
*Rolling shutter- Minimum jello is not as good as no jello.
*Not full RGB. But that was never going to happen. So not a deal breaker.
*R7 should have the same grey finish as the camera.
That's basically it. Not a lot not to like at this point. Sony seems to finally be on the right track with their cinema division. About the only thing they could do now is spin their cinema division out of the Cinealta line. Low end cameras like the the EX1 and F3 have had the Cinealta tag. Just make a brand new ultra high end real cinema cameras only brand to face ARRI head on. Take a page out of their compatriots book from the car industry when they made premium brands like Acura and Lexus to compete with Mercedes. Perception is everything.
About the image not being similar to the F35, it's important to remember the F35 is a unique concept. It has several characteristics which help make its image that are not present in Venice or any other 35mm digital motion picture camera. Being a CCD, being Full RGB as well as being a global shutter is enough differentiation from Venice. The image will not have the same feeling. I‘m inclined to see the Venice as more of an improved F65 than a F35 throwback. I think the image is more F65 than F35. But it looks good.
It‘s also clear Sony is taking a few pages from the ARRI book here. It‘s a whole new concept for them and in so many ways it is so „Un-Sony“. Starting with an actual name instead of letters and numbers. Sony seems to have swallowed their pride and admitted that they can‘t be a broadcast company if they want to play in the cinema sandbox. The Cinealta division has to become a cinema entity like ARRI or Panavision. They finally seem to be moving towards that. That‘s a very good thing. I think this camera will be way more successful than the F65.
What I like:
*The whole concept. It seems that Sony is at least trying to get it.
*Like the F35 and F65, this is a focused cinema camera. A true cinema camera made for cinema. Not a camera that tries to be an event camera, news camera, broadcast camera, TV camera and cinema camera all at the same time. Focused is great. The only other cameras like that currently in production are the Alexas.
*Resolution. 6K at full frame is near perfect. No reason to sacrifice pixel quality for more resolution. This restraint alone to me is the most positive part of this camera. Because it shows Sony is willing to do what is necessary instead of all that is possible . A focused camera is great.
*The size. Darn perfect. Not too small but also not a large beast. I have always said the F55 was close to the perfect size. Venice has a great form factor. If it balances well on the shoulder the shape is a winner.
*I like that the mount is not an adapter. It is a solid exchangeable mount. It gives the same flexibility of an adapter mount without the flimsiness. Perfect solution.
*The ND filters option is great and very welcome. About the only thing I miss with the F35.
*Sensor flexibility. Full frame, S35, 4:3 for 2x anamorphic and swapable sensor block. Great!
*ISO 500. Yes, like this. Again the restraint shows Sony has their heart in the right place. Maybe this will mean a return to good form for cinema where they will actually start to „light“ again. Budget cinema has been looking like TV shows or student movies for a while now. Nobody seems to be lighting. So many decent budget movies looking low budget. The indecently high ISOs let you get away with anything. Let the TV cameras have the indecently high ISOs and allow Venice to be a focused theatrical camera. ISO 800 would have been fine as well. But 500-800 is the sweet spot for me and I tend to favor ISO 500 because this is what the fastest film stock is. I somehow don‘t think it‘s a coincidence Venice is rated at ISO 500.
*No HFR. This is way better thinking than adding 240fps cropped in my opinion. Let the camera be great in everything it does and if it won‘t be great, then don‘t add it to clutter the camera. Spare it from having an extra item in its Cons list. 99.99% of cinema is not done in HFR. Venice is a theatrical camera. They can rent a high speed camera for that 0.01%.
*I like that they chose to go with the grey from the F35 and F65. This has been the Cinealta color scheme for ultra high end cameras for a while now. Leave the all black for the TV cameras. Although looking at the BTS shots of the short film, it seems they had gone with black first, as there are all black Venice cameras being used by Miranda. I guess they realized this being a continuation of the F35 and F65 lineage they should stick with the grey. It also sets it apart from the cheaper cameras. Sony needs differentiation for their ultra high end cameras if they are to compete head to head with ARRI. ARRI doesn‘t sell a $5K consumer-ish camera. Alexa has no poor cousin. Perception and company image is everything. Hopefully by the time the camera is out they will also have a grey version of the R7 to go with it. It would make it more seamless and integrated.
What I don‘t like:
*Rolling shutter- Minimum jello is not as good as no jello.
*Not full RGB. But that was never going to happen. So not a deal breaker.
*R7 should have the same grey finish as the camera.
That's basically it. Not a lot not to like at this point. Sony seems to finally be on the right track with their cinema division. About the only thing they could do now is spin their cinema division out of the Cinealta line. Low end cameras like the the EX1 and F3 have had the Cinealta tag. Just make a brand new ultra high end real cinema cameras only brand to face ARRI head on. Take a page out of their compatriots book from the car industry when they made premium brands like Acura and Lexus to compete with Mercedes. Perception is everything.
In my opinion this is the right way of doing it. Why sacrifice the general image just to have HFR? The great thing about Venice is that it seems to be a focused camera. Sony already has enough Swiss Knife type of cameras. It looks like they made the right decision and took the right approach with Venice. I said in another thread that it‘s better to have the same sensor in different form factor variations than trying to match different sensor cameras at different prices to make a camera line up. Sony is doing something similar as it seems they are giving us different sensors in the same body. If it can be easily switched in the field it will be fine. Eventually they may also release a smaller, even MOS only version for action oriented shots. But to be honest the body as it is is small enough for any production with a budget, which is the type of productions Venice is target at, to rig it any way they want but the very tight spots.
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
I too don't mind the 500EI base so much.
Plus, I can see a lot of people renting the Venice on a low budget project, renting the T1.5 Sigma cinema primes with Canon mount, throwing a speed-booster on it, and shooting S-35 mode 4K for 2K DCP finish. I'm curious to see how the new gamma curve will distribute bit depth across that stated 9 stops below mid.
Plus, I can see a lot of people renting the Venice on a low budget project, renting the T1.5 Sigma cinema primes with Canon mount, throwing a speed-booster on it, and shooting S-35 mode 4K for 2K DCP finish. I'm curious to see how the new gamma curve will distribute bit depth across that stated 9 stops below mid.
starcentral
Veteran
500 base if it's as clean as they say will mean 1000 is good and 2000 gets it comparable to the noise we are use to seeing with F5/F55... you're right, no concern here.
slog3 will support over 14 stops DR so there's that, but for full latitude I think going 16-bit RAW is best. But those bottom stops still don't get a lot of code values so not sure what Sony is going to do about it. I would think they need RAW-log of some sort.
macgregor
Veteran
What's your impression on the footage Macgregor, any thoughts? (as it relates to F35 or F65)
I think it looks better than F65. I don't know who will pay $75K ish though for this camera when there's a beautiful Alexa mini for way less, smaller, and no need to wait 1-2 years to get it fully operational. I'm not a fan of Sony's RAW workflow. Too slow.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I shoot F55 RAW almost every day. What do you find slow about it? I haven't shot RAW on other brands of camera so I cannot compare, but I find it hard to imagine what could be faster than F55 RAW. I transfer to an SSD and begin grading in Resolve immediately. Rendering is about 15-30 fps out of Resolve, depending on the complexity of the grade. What is faster about RAW from other cameras?
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JPNola
Veteran
Any thoughts as to why Sony did not go with the electronic ND for the Venice?
The camera has an electronically controlled ND ( a motorized ND wheel system that can be commanded to switch between fixed densities of ND ) but not the electronic ND in which a single piece of ND changes density with electrical input.
It would seem that the electronic ND would be something DP's want since it provides infinitely variable ND and allows a DP to shoot at a fixed stop, controlling exposure via the ND instead of the lens aperture. Maybe the development of electronic ND took place too late to be incorporated into the Sony Venice?
The camera has an electronically controlled ND ( a motorized ND wheel system that can be commanded to switch between fixed densities of ND ) but not the electronic ND in which a single piece of ND changes density with electrical input.
It would seem that the electronic ND would be something DP's want since it provides infinitely variable ND and allows a DP to shoot at a fixed stop, controlling exposure via the ND instead of the lens aperture. Maybe the development of electronic ND took place too late to be incorporated into the Sony Venice?