F55: Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira

Viscount Omega

Viscount Omega

Carbonite Member
Hey Guys--

I'm in the market to upgrade my current camera (A7SII) and was wondering what your opinions were.

It's for my personal use to make low-budget indie films. I'm not looking to "get work" with the camera or rent it out.

I have about $40K (+/-) to spend on the camera and I'm looking at the Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira. My budget could go higher if it's worth it though.

I'm a little inexperienced and concerned there are drawbacks with each camera to watch out for that I'm not aware of and will cause me regret.

Thanks.
 
I think ARRI are awfully overpriced. In the niche they aim for, it's not important because one also gets the best workflow. But they're still overpriced.

The best buys these days are probably FS-5 Raw Bundle (Q7+) for ~ $9,000, URSA Mini Pro (~ $8,500, if you need a viewfinder), C300 MKII (low light, auto focus with EF lenses, $12,000) and Panasonic LT (low light, IQ, ~$22,000).

If you have more dough to play with, buy a bunch of lights and V-mount batteries.

PS. This doesn't count cameras that may be unveiled at June's Cinegear.
 
Wow! That's a lot of budget for a personal camera for low budget indies. I would honestly suggest that you rent each one and try. Basically, all cameras are good. It often comes down to a matter of which look you prefer, ergonomics and camera operation and your workflow in general. If you are looking at digital cinema cameras, let me also suggest the VaricamLT and maybe even, gulp, the Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro.

Keep in mind as well that the camera is but a part of the investment. Glass can cost more than the camera so ponder which lenses you would buy and which you would rent. A good tripod is essential. I would say never skimp on tripod.

I respectfully note that you have a bit of a learning curve here and I also respectfully note that camera choice is but one component in creating a low-budget indie.

It is too broad a question just to answer. All of us posting here have opinions and what is a drawback to some isn't a concern to others. Nothing that you mention has fatal flaws.

Ask specifics based upon the budget for crew-- AC's, gaffers, sound, etc-- and your plans for post.

Ned Soltz
 
I'm not sure I would recommend any of the models you've listed. You could spend another $40k just outfitting those rigs. Lenses, tripod and media could easily set you back $30K up and above the cost of the camera. When I bought my F55, I was basically starting from scratch because nothing for my EX1R was adequate for the 55. I spent almost 1.5 times what the camera was worth just to get up to speed. Have you looked at the FS7II? It's incredibly flexible and would free up funds for all of the support gear you'll need.

Craig
 
The VariCam LT looks interesting. I have to research that one a little.

I know the importance of lenses, lights, locations, sound, actors, etc.. I want to focus on the best camera I can afford right now.

The Arri Amira looks easy to use with an easy workflow but I wonder if I can get the look I'm after. A lot of the footage lacks contrast and color to me. It has a "log" look to it. I downloaded some ungraded Amira footage and when I tried to add more contrast and color to it, it turned ugly very quickly. It wasn't high quality ungraded footage though.

I like some of the Red footage I've seen but some message board users complain about hassles working with that camera.

I'm used to the Sony cameras. The F55 has global shutter which is great but I wonder if I can grade the raw footage to look filmic enough. Here's a link to some films shot with the F55 but I haven't seen any of them.

https://shotonwhat.com/cameras/sony-pmw-f55-camera

Watching movies as "research". I like it.
 
icarusfilm said:
If the same crew shot the same movie with the same lighting same glass on an Arri, Sony, Red, Canon or Varicam these movies would look basically exactly the same you would need to look very very hard to see differences.
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I have to agree. All of these cameras have around 14 stops of range and enough bits to do the job. The colorist and the exposure make a much bigger difference to the final look than the sensor in the camera.
Shooting LOG, none of these cameras will make a decent picture out of the box.
Arri probably has the best established workflow because of the number of projects shot with their Alexa line. I would look at the Alexa Mini, if I were going Arri.
I've used the Sony FS5 RAW for VFX plate work on Sony F55, Alexa, and Red shows and there's never been an issue matching the grade or with the quality in general. And it's small and light enough to throw in a single pelican case and be ready to shoot.
I really recommend renting until you know what you want. For $40k you could make a movie!
 
This was a bigger deal a couple years ago, but on a small crew, I've found we can get more done with less effort and fewer people when working with an Alexa (And Amira) compared to RED. Only worked on jobs with Sony F55 a couple times and had our hands full with sound, so I didn't glean much about how that went (though the images looked great!). Anyway, comparing RED with Arri, on Arri we could hire a good AC rather than a DIT...and we were able to get through more pages and setups with less stress. Things may have changed, but think lots about on-set workflow & crew needs and how that will affect budget.

And not trying to be too pushy, but think about what you want to do.... Lots of us have multiple crafts, but think about what will be your primary craft, what your secondary, and what you want to be your primary 5-10 years down the road. Writer? Director? Cinematographer? Editor? And let those priorities and long-term goals influence where and how you spend your money.

I'd say with one of the cameras you're considering, an online/grading suite worth the footage is going to be, I don't know, $20,000 and that's on the total cheap (the colorists I've worked with work in rooms that cost a lot more than that). And becoming a good colorist takes a long time. Same with all the other crafts.

And factor in the short lifespan of current cameras. Say, two to three years and then the market (and outlets and we) want something newer. A bunch of my good DP friends don't own a fancy camera; they rent (or rather, have their clients rent). And I'd say more of them own nice PL glass than own cameras... Because the glass lasts longer (though even there, their lenses don't necessarily fit the bill for every job), but a bunch don't own either camera or glass. Now, some are owner/operators...but again, those are people who are primarily camera ops/cinematographers/DPs. If that's where you're heading, and you're willing to buy new cameras every couple of years, go for it! There are some great cameras out there.

But maybe you could think if renting, as others suggest, is a good route for you. Spend the money you save by not buying a camera on hiring better crew and actors. Or if you're thinking relying on a cohort of friends and volunteers, use the money you save to buy you more time to work on the script, shoot a few more days, or edit longer without the pressures of work.

That's my take. And while I like the color and workflow of Arri cameras a lot, if you still want to buy, maybe look at some of the intriguing and good cameras hovering around US$10,000...And wait to see what gets announced at that price at the Cine Gear show next month... As I think you've seen on this forum and elsewhere, it looks like two or three intriguing cameras will debut there...

Well that's my take. Hope this helps at least a little.
 
You need to identify the problems with your current camera!

Too poor high ISO? Not heavy enough?

Unlikely.

Lack of hfr ? Lack of global shutter ? Thin codec?

Maybe.

When you identify your needs you can start the journey.

If I had a spare house deposit for a camera I'd probably get a phantom Miro
 
Viscount Omega said:
Hey Guys--

I'm in the market to upgrade my current camera (A7SII) and was wondering what your opinions were.

It's for my personal use to make low-budget indie films. I'm not looking to "get work" with the camera or rent it out.

I have about $40K (+/-) to spend on the camera and I'm looking at the Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira. My budget could go higher if it's worth it though.

I'm a little inexperienced and concerned there are drawbacks with each camera to watch out for that I'm not aware of and will cause me regret.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

If PL mount, side LCD, 16 bit RAW,and true 4K are important for you.. what about a second hand F55.. quite a few around now or an F5.. for that matter..with the internal 4K upgrade.. you can rent the RAW recorder separately too.. and tay with the Sony workflow you know.. Arri sensor is old.. pro res is old and inefficient ..I wouldn't buy into a non 4K camera these days.. or pro res for that matter.. Sony has some new RAW codecs too ..
 
You need to identify the problems with your current camera!
Click to expand...

Good point. What problems? A7SII skin tones are only "acceptable", whole image is too thin with S-log-3, not enough mid-range juice with Slog 2. Like all Sony cameras, the whole thing looks like , "Almost there but not quite good enough."..

Moot point? It matters to me.

My neighbor, George, came over tonight and I showed him some of my a7sII footage and he heard me criticise the hell out of it. Then I showed him some "House of Cards" footage shot on Red. I pointed out the difference. He called me "retarded" for noticing the difference. He likes some show called "Shameless". I had to explain to this mofo why I'm not "retarded" and that I notice details that he doesn't. And he's actually my audience!

I want buy a used 16mm Bolex and a Steenbeck on ebay. Just kidding. (no, I'm not.)
 
Moot point?

Not at all :) I think 8bit sony cameras make people look like they are ill/dead

But you can probably solve that with a BMC micro. (which happens to look like S16 a bit IMO) and still have money for that new BMW.

The bigger cameras..

You just need to know and try them each is strong and weak.

HFR on 5/55 is/was weak compared to red/arri maybe?

Red, well No ND? whatever?

Amera.. not on a gimbal?

S
 
8 bit LOG is never going to work.. contradictory terms.. like military intelligence .. F5/55 HFR weak.. compared to Arri or RED.. ? where dat come from ..

Amira only 100 fps.. F5/55 180 HD 2k..

Ok Epic higher.. but then you have to deal with all the other stuff.. like XLR plugs.. :)

Plenty to say about the F5/55 but never heard HFR as a big minus point ..?
 
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Viscount Omega said:
…my budget could go higher if it's worth it though.
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I definitely don't think you need to go higher.

Since you are already familiar with Sony, I'd go for the F55. You can get a used one for around $18k USD. it now shoots internally 480mbps 10-bit 422 with v8 version upgrade. This is insane. With RAW R5 module you can go to 960mbps 16-bit raw - but do you need that? Likely you know that the F55 has a global shutter and although I take that for granted a lot of the times, you know, I'm glad it's there. For me it has some kind of nice motion cadence to it.

RED - I think it's great but you know for the money I'd almost consider a mini pro 4.6k from BM.

AMIRA - No argument here, in my opinion the best looking image from all cameras. There are things you can't do in post that ARRI does so well.
 
Donny 123 said:
F5/55 HFR weak.. compared to Arri or RED.. ? where dat come from ..
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I dont follow the exact specs of the cameras esp the raw/recorder options and recent firmwares

above 60p sony HFR is not so great? My (FS7) experience is that you could not really cut it into a 4k timeline.
 
Viscount Omega said:
He called me "retarded" for noticing the difference. He likes some show called "Shameless". I had to explain to this mofo why I'm not "retarded" and that I notice details that he doesn't. And he's actually my audience!
Click to expand...

I gave up discussing Sony look differences to other camera's over a year ago;

There are three kinds of people and you sound like you fall into the same category as myself and a select few others on this forum:

- people who see the difference between Sony and ARRI (skin tone and highlights rendition would be my fast-track-summary)
- people who see the difference but don't care
- people who see the difference but won't admit it in an online discussion because they will be bashed by all the people who invested $ into a camera and they are not allowed to talk bad about

Best thing you can do is book a lane at your local camera rental house or dealer and do your own tests and make them comparable; then go in post and see what you can manage to live with and without. ARRI will please you the most but it's not exactly 4K but does it really matter? Also don't compare 8-bit a7sii to other Sony camera's or TV shows shot on RED. I do think RED has better look over Sony out of the box and easier to make look nice but others will have different options about it… which is why go do your own tests.. :beer:

Hit me up through PM if you have questions about F5/F55, I'd be more than happy to help.
 
morgan_moore said:
I dont follow the exact specs of the cameras esp the raw/recorder options and recent firmwares

above 60p sony HFR is not so great? My (FS7) experience is that you could not really cut it into a 4k timeline.
Click to expand...

With RAW recorder F5/55 can go to 240 fps !! and the F55 will go to 120fps in 4K.. with V8.. my figures are just internal rec to SxS cards XAVC.. I dont know about the fs7.. but I shoot alot 100 fps with the F5 and its fine cut into 4K .. as i presume would be the F55.. what are your problems with HFR ?..
 
We should be careful to compare FS7 HFR to F5/55 as there is no 2k OLPF option so for some specific shots you may get aliasing.

Having said that I did whole day shoots in HFR > 90 FPS without the 2K OLPF installed and couldn't really find a flaw that bothered me - so who knows maybe it depends. At least with F5/55 you have 2K OLPF option if necessary.

Viscount - what's your priority?

Skin tones, highlights, features, value?

ARRI = skin tones, highlights
RED = highlights
Sony = value
 
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