Sony announces FX9 4K camcorder with 6K fullframe sensor

[Run&Gun]

Amira vs Fx9? Same price? Amira, hands down. If I bought both and floated it out there into the ether that I had both, I'll give you three guesses which camera would be getting the work, and it doesn't have a number in it.

On the used market, they are getting very affordable, now. I've actually seen them for less than what I picked up my used F55 for about 4 1/2 years ago.

 

[Newsguy]

That is so true.

As much as i think Aleviii is still the best image, the dual gain image can make skin look a little like clay sometimes. So, it isn’t perfect. I think F35 shooters tend to see that in Alexa footage. The F35 has one of the best tone curves straight out of camera.

So, i may have missed this, but are you guys going with Fx9?

So the latest is that yes, we’re going FX9 because of the weight. I keep trying to explain that by the time you hang everything you need off an FX9 to balance a 17-120, the weight difference will be negligible. I’m trying to stay with the Amira, but it’s looking more and more like FX9. Ship date would be February according to Sony.

 

[Guest]

So the latest is that yes, we’re going FX9 because of the weight. I keep trying to explain that by the time you hang everything you need off an FX9 to balance a 17-120, the weight difference will be negligible. I’m trying to stay with the Amira, but it’s looking more and more like FX9. Ship date would be February according to Sony.

Seems a popular camera. I know a small rental place that is probably getting a few, and the owner op segment is wide open for something like this.

The Amira looks thinner and the balance looks better. But auto focus seems to be the new “it” thing in this high rez world.

 

[Guest]

I got to see the Fx9 today, and overall, i really like it.

Size and form:
Almost the same length as the Fs7, but a squarish shape, rather than a curved back. The squarish shape will protect the back endwhen you set it on the ground. Metal body. Higgly configurable. Slightly cluttered UI. Familiar Sony menus. REC button in a weird spot up top.
The dumb side looks well thought out for cable management.
IQ:
Looks an improvement for Sony, and this segment. Up there with Canon C series, as far as i could tell. Saw it next to the Fs7, and in adverse lighting, the Fx9 outshown the older Fs7. Generous roll off for this price bracket to date.

Special tricks are the cell phone wireless video. Use an app to get wireless video feed. A gigger’s dream.

The adapter for raw out and v mount battery is bulky, but has room for wireless audio! So, it could make up for the bulk. Also, helps with shoulder balance. But that adds to the price.

EVF is of good quality.











...but it isn’t available till jan 2020 at the earliest.

 

[DLD]

Did they say anything about the external recorder?

 

[puredrifting]

My guess: either it's an APS-C version of the C500II (compared with C300II, that means higher DR and internal RAW), or it's a non-RAW version of the C500II (compared with the C300II, that means higher DR and bigger sensor).

C300 MKIII, if it exists, will have CRL. It would make zero sense to have the C200 have CRL and the C500 MKII have CRL and not have it in the C300 MKIII.
I would lean toward it should essentially be a none FF version of the C500 MKII. Not sure about 6K or 4K sensor though, that would depend on price I think?
Somewhere at $10k-$13k would work. I'd buy it over the C500 MKII, if it was $10k or even $12K, if it had dual CFexpress slots, plus the 410Mbps XF-AVC
in 10-12bit, plus the genlock/TC i/o. It'd be cool if it took the same backs as the C500 MKII I suppose?

 

[JPNola]

Amira vs Fx9? Same price? Amira, hands down. If I bought both and floated it out there into the ether that I had both, I'll give you three guesses which camera would be getting the work, and it doesn't have a number in it.

On the used market, they are getting very affordable, now. I've actually seen them for less than what I picked up my used F55 for about 4 1/2 years ago.

There are Amira's for sale on eBay but rarely any Alexa Mini's for sale on eBay. Reason being the Alexa Mini sees much more demand than the Amira. It of course depends upon the geographic market, but I think the Fx9 will be more requested than the Amira. There are better cameras for "flying" than the Fx9, "better" in that they are lighter weight. But at less than half the weight of the Amira the Fx9 is a better flyer.

I like cameras on the heavier side. But I had a gig where I had to carry an Amira paired with a Cabrio 19-90 around all day and it was brutal. Whatever the sweet spot range is for weight- not too light and not too heavy, the Amira rig was over that. Fatigue set in and I was not grabbing as many shots as earlier in the day when I was not yet fatigued from carrying the beast around. I wasn't as good of a shooter as a result of the camera weight.

I found this info which demonstrates what a typical Amira rig weighs:

"The AMIRA body is 310mm (approx. 1 foot) long and weighs 4.1kg without any added accessories. The actual shooting dimensions depend on the accessories attached but with batteries, TV logic monitor and Canon 17-120mm zoom with clip on matte box (see photo). The length is 68cm and the weight is 12.45kg."


That's 27.4 pounds. Not a big deal if you have a Camera Grip to hand the camera off to in between setups. But that much weight on the end of your arm during all the in-between time, too much. Hope you like having tennis elbow. If there is such a thing as over-building a camera, ARRI over-built the Amira. Great for ruggedness. Not so great for lugging around.

 

[yoclay]

There are Amira's for sale on eBay but rarely any Alexa Mini's for sale on eBay. Reason being the Alexa Mini sees much more demand than the Amira. It of course depends upon the geographic market, but I think the Fx9 will be more requested than the Amira. There are better cameras for "flying" than the Fx9, "better" in that they are lighter weight. But at less than half the weight of the Amira the Fx9 is a better flyer.

I like cameras on the heavier side. But I had a gig where I had to carry an Amira paired with a Cabrio 19-90 around all day and it was brutal. Whatever the sweet spot range is for weight- not too light and not too heavy, the Amira rig was over that. Fatigue set in and I was not grabbing as many shots as earlier in the day when I was not yet fatigued from carrying the beast around. I wasn't as good of a shooter as a result of the camera weight.

I found this info which demonstrates what a typical Amira rig weighs:

"The AMIRA body is 310mm (approx. 1 foot) long and weighs 4.1kg without any added accessories. The actual shooting dimensions depend on the accessories attached but with batteries, TV logic monitor and Canon 17-120mm zoom with clip on matte box (see photo). The length is 68cm and the weight is 12.45kg."


That's 27.4 pounds. Not a big deal if you have a Camera Grip to hand the camera off to in between setups. But that much weight on the end of your arm during all the in-between time, too much. Hope you like having tennis elbow. If there is such a thing as over-building a camera, ARRI over-built the Amira. Great for ruggedness. Not so great for lugging around.

The big issue for the Amira is that it is power hungry. You need 4 serious bricks around for a days work. You get 2 hours off of a 98W bat. An F5/55 gets 3.9 hours and an FS7 gets 5.7 hours. So for news gathering, this is an issue.

 

[Guest]

Did they say anything about the external recorder?

Not sure.

I only heard one guy ask if it would record internal raw, and then the sales guy said no, “external.” I didn’t think to ask if that meant a recorder or just a raw output.

 

[JPNola]

Not sure.

I only heard one guy ask if it would record internal raw, and then the sales guy said no, “external.” I didn’t think to ask if that meant a recorder or just a raw output.

If a Sony salesperson, my response would be "If you want internal raw you will need to spend another $5000, 32% more, to get the C500MkII but then you'll give up electronic ND, dual ISO, better AF, Venice color-science, a more robust and weather-resistant body, physical pots for audio channels 3 & 4, an LCD with nearly twice the resolution of the C500MkII, a true eyepiece, and wider compatibility with lenses. And also risk that Canon will even be around much longer to service it, given the headlines of late and Canon having to close service centers."

 

[cpreston]

If a Sony salesperson, my response would be "If you want internal raw you will need to spend another $5000, 32% more, to get the C500MkII but then you'll give up electronic ND, dual ISO, better AF, Venice color-science, a more robust and weather-resistant body, physical pots for audio channels 3 & 4, an LCD with nearly twice the resolution of the C500MkII, a true eyepiece, and wider compatibility with lenses. And also risk that Canon will even be around much longer to service it, given the headlines of late and Canon having to close service centers."

And if a Sony salesperson gave me that list, I might accept the the electronic ND as a positive even though I don't yet know how it works, but I would have serious questions about why they insist that the rest of the sales points are true or beneficial.

 

[Run&Gun]

There are Amira's for sale on eBay but rarely any Alexa Mini's for sale on eBay. Reason being the Alexa Mini sees much more demand than the Amira. It of course depends upon the geographic market, but I think the Fx9 will be more requested than the Amira. There are better cameras for "flying" than the Fx9, "better" in that they are lighter weight. But at less than half the weight of the Amira the Fx9 is a better flyer.

I like cameras on the heavier side. But I had a gig where I had to carry an Amira paired with a Cabrio 19-90 around all day and it was brutal. Whatever the sweet spot range is for weight- not too light and not too heavy, the Amira rig was over that. Fatigue set in and I was not grabbing as many shots as earlier in the day when I was not yet fatigued from carrying the beast around. I wasn't as good of a shooter as a result of the camera weight.

I found this info which demonstrates what a typical Amira rig weighs:

"The AMIRA body is 310mm (approx. 1 foot) long and weighs 4.1kg without any added accessories. The actual shooting dimensions depend on the accessories attached but with batteries, TV logic monitor and Canon 17-120mm zoom with clip on matte box (see photo). The length is 68cm and the weight is 12.45kg."


That's 27.4 pounds. Not a big deal if you have a Camera Grip to hand the camera off to in between setups. But that much weight on the end of your arm during all the in-between time, too much. Hope you like having tennis elbow. If there is such a thing as over-building a camera, ARRI over-built the Amira. Great for ruggedness. Not so great for lugging around.

The big issue for the Amira is that it is power hungry. You need 4 serious bricks around for a days work. You get 2 hours off of a 98W bat. An F5/55 gets 3.9 hours and an FS7 gets 5.7 hours. So for news gathering, this is an issue.

Guess part of it depends on what you're used to and like. I still love my VariCam which is at least 25lb-30lb in normal shooting scenario(13x4.5 lens, Lectro SR slotted in, 230 or 190 wh battery, PortaBrace shoulder case and if doing off-the-shoulder sound inside an LP Sola ENG top light on a Noga arm). Definitely not light, but perfectly balanced and at home on my shoulder. My F55 with 17-120 is at least as heavy decked-out to shoot with 230 or 190 battery. I also have a client with several Amira's and have run around with them many times with a Fuji 20-120(exact same weight as 17-120). The only thing I don't like about my clients Amira set-ups, the batteries are too small. They have ~98 wh single AB's and stackable Pag's. I'd much rather have my big 230's, 190's or the CSWX XL(293 Wh's).

Yes, with an F55, I can usually get a full day with one of my bricks. I've actually done two days before...

And not that long ago, most of us were running around with 3-4 5.5 lb batteries(Hytron's 140Wh's, NiCad's before that at ~65Wh's).

Amira is ~50 Wh draw. I could get almost 4 hours with my 190's, 4.5 hours from my 230's, and close to 6 from the new XL's. And they will balance out way better than little 98's. So, almost 6 hours from a single battery that weigh less than 3.4 lbs(XL).

 

[dmitrizigany]

Did they say anything about the external recorder?

There is no external recorder.
There’s the extension module that you need to output raw. A future Atomos product will record that raw signal.
Raw output will also not be available until a firmware update, so not at initial shipping of the FX9.

 

[puredrifting]

So the latest is that yes, we’re going FX9 because of the weight. I keep trying to explain that by the time you hang everything you need off an FX9 to balance a 17-120, the weight difference will be negligible. I’m trying to stay with the Amira, but it’s looking more and more like FX9. Ship date would be February according to Sony.

To be fair, the Alexa is a cine camera. Fully rigged Minis on the shows I have worked on that used them were pushing 35-40lbs (Homeland, Prison Break) but the rigs were with Panavision zoom lenses which weigh a ton but still.
It's the same argument as using a RED, it's best as a crew served camera on bigger sets. I tried using the RED Epic Dragon last year on a few shoots and it really is awkward. Great camera than can make great images
but just not the right camera for small crew/OMB, run & gun type shooting, the FX9 will be much better even though I think the Alexa has a much better image. Image isn't everything, using the right tool for the job and
workflow is, especially since you are shooting live stuff.

 

[puredrifting]

There is no external recorder.
There’s the extension module that you need to output raw. A future Atomos product will record that raw signal.
Raw output will also not be available until a firmware update, so not at initial shipping of the FX9.

I'm beginning to doubt if many FX9 owners will care about or spend the considerable extra money, size and weight to shoot RAW. It seems like a huge hindrance compared to just popping a few CFexpress cards into the C500 MKII.
I totally agree now that the audience for the FX9 is completely different than the audience for the C500 MKII. There is some overlap, especially here in LA but I see the Sony used more in corporate and work for hire
and the Canon used more on production that is a click or two up the food chain.

 

[Run&Gun]

To be fair, the Alexa is a cine camera. Fully rigged Minis on the shows I have worked on that used them were pushing 35-40lbs (Homeland, Prison Break) but the rigs were with Panavision zoom lenses which weigh a ton but still.
It's the same argument as using a RED, it's best as a crew served camera on bigger sets. I tried using the RED Epic Dragon last year on a few shoots and it really is awkward. Great camera than can make great images
but just not the right camera for small crew/OMB, run & gun type shooting, the FX9 will be much better even though I think the Alexa has a much better image. Image isn't everything, using the right tool for the job and
workflow is, especially since you are shooting live stuff.

Did you "mis-speak" and mean Amira? Because he's talking about the Amira, not Alexa. The Amira was designed for small crew/one-man/doc type work. It's not much different than when we were running around, not that long ago, with Betacam's and VariCam's by ourselves. I'd rather run around by myself with an Amira and 17-120 than a C series and several still lenses. But again, that's my background. Running around solo with a 25lb-30lb camera isn't alien to me. It's another day in the office... I actually think the FX9 is more of a compromise for what Newsguy and his fellow shooters need to do, considering I do basically the same thing.

 

[dmitrizigany]

I'm beginning to doubt if many FX9 owners will care about or spend the considerable extra money, size and weight to shoot RAW.

Yes, it’s one of the big drawbacks. If it could output raw without the extension back at least it would have been a completely different thing...
However, if the 16bit raw turns out good it could really be used as a poor man’s Venice... so could be useful to some.
Personally I guess I’ll just use an external recorder and record in ProRes if I ever need better codec than the internal.

 

[puredrifting]

Did you "mis-speak" and mean Amira? Because he's talking about the Amira, not Alexa. The Amira was designed for small crew/one-man/doc type work. It's not much different than when we were running around, not that long ago, with Betacam's and VariCam's by ourselves. I'd rather run around by myself with an Amira and 17-120 than a C series and several still lenses. But again, that's my background. Running around solo with a 25lb-30lb camera isn't alien to me. It's another day in the office... I actually think the FX9 is more of a compromise for what Newsguy and his fellow shooters need to do, considering I do basically the same thing.

Whoops, sorry for cluttering up the conversation, I though we were talking Alex Mini and Mini LF, my bad.
I've only shot with the Amira once, running around the beach and sand and the Santa monica Pier and I thought it was kind of a beast but it did balance well.
But it made me want my C300 at the time. I'm kind of done with heavy cameras myself, too many days of lugging Betacams and F900s around.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I wouldn't want to do a 12 hour reality TV show shoot with an Amira on my shoulder all day (which I don't do that, because why would I want to do a 12 hour reality TV shoulder mounting with any camera? ), but for say a narrative film, commercial, doc/corporate (interviews and short b-roll), etc., having a 30 lb camera on my shoulder for 5-10 minutes at a time typically isn't so tough. And if you can't handle that weight for a short period, probably good to either hit the gym or grow 20 years younger. More weight equals more inertia which means more organically stable footage without having to rely on artificial looking stabilization like optical IS, electronic IS, or a gimbal.

Guess part of it depends on what you're used to and like. I still love my VariCam which is at least 25lb-30lb in normal shooting scenario(13x4.5 lens, Lectro SR slotted in, 230 or 190 wh battery, PortaBrace shoulder case and if doing off-the-shoulder sound inside an LP Sola ENG top light on a Noga arm). Definitely not light, but perfectly balanced and at home on my shoulder. My F55 with 17-120 is at least as heavy decked-out to shoot with 230 or 190 battery. I also have a client with several Amira's and have run around with them many times with a Fuji 20-120(exact same weight as 17-120). The only thing I don't like about my clients Amira set-ups, the batteries are too small. They have ~98 wh single AB's and stackable Pag's. I'd much rather have my big 230's, 190's or the CSWX XL(293 Wh's).

Yes, with an F55, I can usually get a full day with one of my bricks. I've actually done two days before...

And not that long ago, most of us were running around with 3-4 5.5 lb batteries(Hytron's 140Wh's, NiCad's before that at ~65Wh's).

Amira is ~50 Wh draw. I could get almost 4 hours with my 190's, 4.5 hours from my 230's, and close to 6 from the new XL's. And they will balance out way better than little 98's. So, almost 6 hours from a single battery that weigh less than 3.4 lbs(XL).

Yeah, I mostly use 280w batteries with my Amira which last around 4 hours (also powering a SmallHD and sometimes other accessories). Four hours is long enough for me to not be complaining, about the same amount of time I get with the larger BPA-60 batteries on my C300s.

 

[DLD]

There is no external recorder. There’s the extension module that you need to output raw. A future Atomos product will record that raw signal. Raw output will also not be available until a firmware update, so not at initial shipping of the FX9.

So, there is a recorder. It's just that it won't be made by Sony but rather in cooperation with Sony.

But they ain't talking about it yet. At least, not loudly. But without it, the whole extension unit makes no sense.

... And if you can't handle that weight for a short period, probably good to either hit the gym or grow 20 years younger...

Very Stengel'ish.