Sony A77 release very soon - is this the 5D/7D/GH2 killer?

S

shorty15

Well-known member
There is probably a thread about this camera already but it seems to be flying under the radar so I thought I would post a thread about it. As I am sure many of you are aware, Sony is set to announce the next semi-pro DSLR in July. It is called the A77 and it's projected specs seem pretty good. This is a real camera and it has already been displayed in prototype form.

You can find out more about here: http://www.eoshd.com/content/2727/sony-a77

We know that it is an APSC cam, with full HD and an AVCHD codec. We don't know what the bitrate is or the frame rates but rumor has it that 24p is not an option. We are also not sure if the video has manual control.

It is now time for me to put my critical hat on. I am willing to bet money that Sony will cripple this camera out of the gate. The lack of 24p will prove to be the death of this camera if it is not included, as will a lack of manual control. The problem is that Sony IS aware of the specs that indie no-budget filmmakers are looking for but they seem to have NO interest in offering those features to piss poor consumers. The other problem is that Sony has multiple divisions all working on separate projects. This camera is being built by the photography department, not the pro video department. Even if the photo department wanted to bring indie-film features to their DSLR, the pro video department would throw a fit because they would think that their market was being infringed upon. Keep in mind that Sony just released the FS100 which has almost all of the specs that indie filmmakers are looking for, all for the low cost of $6000 (sarcasm). A $1500ish DSLR with similar video specs would certainly cut into the FS100's market share and Sony can't have that.

When it comes to consumers, Sony has always thought that less was more. I can see the A77 engineers saying stuff like: "Why would they want manual control over video, our super advanced auto-everything system is so precise, I can't imagine anyone would ever want to have control over shutter speed, iris and iso while shooting video." - "24p footage looks choppy and consumers don't want choppy footage. They want their videos to look like the motionflow footage effects we have in our TV's so we will give them 30p. Who would ever think of shooting in 24p mode?"

I won't lie. I am eagerly awaiting this release but I won't hold my breath because Sony has shown over the years that the don't understand the TRUE needs to the consumer. Will this be a 7D or GH2 killer? Probably not. What we will end up with is a great stills camera with crippled video functionality (30p, 17mbps, no manual control) but who knows, we could be pleasantly surprised. What are your thoughts?
 
My thoughts are while you and a lot of others want tons of features for almost no money, it might be wise to study business and market realities a little closer. At $6,000, the FS-100 IS cheap. You have the Canon cameras as well as the GH1/2 cameras which are under $1,500. There are choices for your pricepoint, just not up to your quality desires. But the higher end stuff has and always will cost more. Not because companies are evil but because it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to create the good stuff.

Think about it, if the "no budget" indie crowd does not want to pay very much but wants a lot why would any company cater to this demographic? :)
 
All we want is a 7D competitor that is not unusable. If Sony wants to take a piece of Nikon and Canon's cake, they need to out spec them. 1080p 24p/60p, 24mbps AVCHD with an APSC sensor for around $1500 does not seem unreasonable. I'm not asking for 4:2:2 out through HDSDI. Compact flash is fine. For many people, $6000 is crazy expensive. The ideal specs are a reasonable improvement over the 7D and GH2. I'm not asking for a red for $1500. Does anyone else think that my ideal specs are unreasonable?
 
shorty15 said:
All we want is a 7D competitor that is not unusable. If Sony wants to take a piece of Nikon and Canon's cake, they need to out spec them. 1080p 24p/60p, 24mbps AVCHD with an APSC sensor for around $1500 does not seem unreasonable. I'm not asking for 4:2:2 out through HDSDI. Compact flash is fine. For many people, $6000 is crazy expensive. The ideal specs are a reasonable improvement over the 7D and GH2. I'm not asking for a red for $1500. Does anyone else think that my ideal specs are unreasonable?
Click to expand...

Sometimes I think people are being unreasonable when talking about DSLR video....but in your case- NO. I think you are spot on with Sony. They just don't get it when it comes to the high end consumer price point. In this price point are many like you and me who don't expect ENTRY LEVEL prices and extra features for free. All we want is 24P and manual control and we're willing to buy the top of the line consumer cams to get it....finally Sony put this into their top consumer camcorders....when I was buying ONLY Canon had true 24P.
24P and manual control don't cost Sony a dime...they are just ignorant and what I mean is that they're not stupid - there's a difference. They ignore a new market which has only been around since 2008, so all the "experts" can spare us the rules talk. There are no rules when it comes to the DSLR video niche...only winners and losers.
Panny and Canon are winning right now. Sony and Nikon (the D7000 is a good step) are losing.
I'm fine without Sony, but if they truly want to join the new game they gotta buy a clue. Now OTOH they are doing very impressive things higher up the ladder.
 
I think $1500 is a great price point. It's still loads cheaper than the FS100 or AF100, and it's not unaffordable. I think up to $1500 is a category. If you go above that, like to even $1800, you may as well go $2K, which is a new category. As to what can you ask of a $1500 DSLR? Well, look what GH2 gave us for around $1K. And $1500 is 50% more than $1K. So I think if we are "entitled" to ask for the Sony to be 50% better than the GH2, especially considering that it's coming almost a year later to the market, and as we know every year the DSLR market evolves. Therefore it's not unreasonable by either cost or time. So who is up for something 50% better than the GH2? :) Of course, it being Sony, I'm afraid it's entirely possible that we'll get something "about" as good as the GH2, but 50% more expensive with some crucial features missing. We'll see. I'm certainly ready for the GH2 to get some competition - competition is good, especially for Panasonic, who can't seem to be able to get their act together... GH2 availability has been nothing short of a scandal - if Sony were smart, they'd take advantage of the Panny bungling and take away that market, since by dragging their feet on the GH2, Panny has lost a lot of potential customers instead of locking them into the Panasonic system. Anyhow, can't wait!
 
> Will this be a 7D or GH2 killer .... who knows, we could be pleasantly surprised.

Wait, what?? ..... a flying pig just wooshed overhead!! Seriously, folks, anyone hoping for that set of features in the A77 needs to stop immediately.

The camera system that really saddens me with regard to video is Pentax. They came so close is some ways - the Kx shot 24P and even had decent manual control via a few workarounds. But then they stepped away with the next generation of cameras.

Pentax really doesn't "get it". (Whereas Sony gets it just fine, but willfully looks the other way.)
 
I really love the idea of the a77 been a GH2/7D killer, but Sony trajectory prove otherwise, i think they will leave the a77 with the same video characteristics from the a55 or a580(17mbs, 30fps, no manual controls, etc), centering the a77 as it is, a Photographic camera. But maybe a VG10 update can save us, the VG20? from a economical and practical point of view for Sony is not that bad, Sony has good really good lenses available for this (on Alpha mount), the Zeiss and the G series. And could became the new FS100 entry level (as the FS100 is from the F3)

Sound logical to me that the VG20 may have 1080p at 24fps/30fps, 720p at 60fps, manual controls, better sound monitoring and controls, on body stabilization, live and clean hdmi monitoring, mic input; of course, no ND-Filter, no Vector or Zebras, no OLED screen, no viewfinder, this could be a great weapon for the low budget indie.

Back to the a77, at 24 megapixels maybe can be really a pita extract a optimal video performance, so moire, rolling shutter and aliasing could appear as a big problem, plus the temps problems the Alpha series have lately.

I´m a motion graphics guy, and have a GH1 hacked, but want a upgrade, so the a77 and a possible GH3 are top on my list, i will wait till August or September, on the Canon side, i have no hope for now, but if the VG20 can give me what i looking for so it be, well until i can afford the FS100 ;)

Greetings
 
Look for Nikon to use the same sensor in their new D400? Dx camera, coming out????
Hopefully, Nikon will catch the "clue bus" in regards to video, and add something to the equation to allow 60P and/or 24P...
Nikon is due for a new "pro-sumer"/Pro body, probably around January? I'm thinking it will be this 24Mp sensor(same as in the D3X?).

But, this camera is doomed from the start, without the "basics" of consumer video-that being lack of 24P or 1080/60P, full manual controls, etc. The other issue is lenses-which i understand are getting better, or are in development. with Nikon, the lenses are already in place and are fantastic.

I'm holding out for a 24mp+ Nikon pro body, with full manual video control, etc........for now, the GH1 and 2 fit the bill perfectly, and I don't see any gains coming from the a77. It almost seems like a "stop-gap" camera-the one they make to determine what the consumer "pulse" is, before they release the 30+ mega-pixel sensor monster.

I'd also like to see 2K or even 4K in an Fx sensor-it's coming-you know it is. And yes, I'm familiar with the Red. But, these dslr's are capable of bringing 2K to the "masses".
 
Everything Sony releases is overpriced and under equipped compared to the competition. Who really still uses MPEG 2 at a measly 35mbps in 4:2:0 color? Even their CONSUMER products are the same: some of their "high end" HDTVs don't display 24p! They make 24p motion look like home movies.

Only my 2cents. Bought one Sony camera (a consumer MiniDV camera for capturing tape since I don't want to use my DVX for that) and I'll never make that mistake again!

Edit: On the upper end of the scale even with the F35, while I have seen some really nice footage from it, is the biggest waste of money ever. The nice shots I have seen took DAYS of color correction and noise removal to compare with the Panasonic Varicams or the Arri ALEXA.
 
Time to reopen this thread now that we have fairly strong indications that the A77 will be a 28mbps AVCHD 2.0 camera with a metal body, full manual control of video and 24/25/50/60p frame rates. If Sony has also dealt with the A55's moire, overheating and short maximum clip length challenges, I am one GH1/GH2 owner who will look seriously at buying one -- even if it is $2000+

Same thing with the VG20 -- if it has manual audio control and 24/60p frame rates for a little over $2000, I will look seriously at that too -- especially since its lenses are 100% compatible with the FS100.

Looks like Sony is making a serious bid to get back in the fight.

Bill
 
More info today,




http://mirrorlessforum.com/sony-nex-rumors/3519-sr5-full-a77-a65-nex-7-nex-5n-specs.html#post4380


(SR5) The Full A77, A65, NEX-7 and NEX-5N specs


A77
24.3 MP Exmor HD CMOS sensor
19 points AF sensor with 11 cross sensors
ISO 100-16000, with expandeable ISO 50 option
1920 x 1080 60p/24p AVCHD 2.0
P/A/S/M manual controls while recording video
1200 zone metering
Completely new developed Bionz processor
12 fps
1/8000 shutter speed
TrueBlack 921k 3-way tilt LCD
3 million dot OLED viewfinder
Smart teleconverter function with 1.4x and 2.0x option
Built-in flash
Built-in GPS
Battery life with over over 500 shots
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and Moisture proof
Multi Frame NR


A65 (differences with the A77)
A77 has 19 point AF system with 11 cross sensors while the A65 has only 3 cross sensors.
A77 can do 12 fps while the A65 can do 10fps.
A77 has new 3 way tilting LCD, A65 has “classic” tilting LCD
A77 can do 50 ISO while A65 can not.
The A77 has a magnesium body while the A65 has not.
The A77 has 1/8000 shutter while A65 has a 1/4000 shutter
The A77 has a top LCD screen while the A65 has it not.
The A77 is Dust and Moisture proof while the A65 is not


NEX-7
24,3 Exmor HD sensor
100-16.000 ISO
1200 zone metering
1920×1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 (28Mbit/s) video recording
3 million dot XGA OLED viewfinder
3inch 921k TruBlack LCD display (touchscreen)
10 fps
20ms startup time
Built-in flash
New universal hot shoe
Battery life for over 400 shots
Magnesium alloy body


NEX-5N
16.1 MP Exmor sensor (Same us Sony NEX-C3)
ISO 100-25600
1920×1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 video recording
Shutter 1/4000
10 fps
Can take over 430 shots with one battery
Same AF speed as the GH2


VG-20
16 MPX Exmor sensor
1920×1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 video recording
Can record stills in RAW
3 inch touchscreen (swifel)
audio level control
IR AVR remote
 
Even if it has avchd 2, you could still find yourself with 17mbs 24p and 28mbs 60p. It is not impossible with Sony. More so that they have to have some distance from the FS-100.
 
These new specs are being posted all over the web like they are fact but they all come from the sonyalpharumors.com site which is, as its name implies, a rumor site. They have given it an (SR5) rating which means that they are pretty certain that these specs are correct but I can't help but think that this sounds too goo to be true. Who are the "secret sources"? Sony employees? Prototype testers?

We could still be in for a lot of disappointment on Aug. 24th so take the rumored specs with a grain of salt. They say that the A77, NEX 7 and VG20 are AVCHD 2.0 compatible which supports all the projected video specs of these cameras but I wonder if one of their "trusted" sources told them "The new Sony cams have AVCHD 2.0" and then Sonyalpharumors.com looked up AVCHD 2.0, saw all the supported frame rates and bit rates and then assumed that the cameras would have all of these features. AVCHD 2.0 may support 1080p 60p/24p/30p but that does not mean that Sony has included them all in the A77. If these specs are correct, then FS100 sales are going to drop like a stone but Sony may think that selling hundreds of thousands of DSLR's is better than selling thousands of FS100's.

I remember when the Canon 7d came out and the specs were leaked a day or two before the official announcement but the specs came from actual leaked Canon press material. Since no sources are given and the official announcement is still 20 or so days away, I will remain skeptical.

Anyone know how often Sonyalpharumors.com is right about stuff they give an SR5 rating?

Source: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-the-full-a77-a65-nex-7-and-nex-5n-specs/
 
it´s kinda of like a weather forecast - you can watch the evening news but it´s best to take a look at the sky as well
 
I don't ever take "rumors" seriously. That doesn't mean that it won't happen, but I just wait for time to tell. Would it be nice....uh....sure. Will it change what cam I buy in the next 12 months. Uh...maybe...maybe not. Am I happy that Sony has released 3 "category busters" this year (F3, FS100, HX9)? Heck yes! The more the merrier. Do I hope that they do the same in Photog Full Frame DSLR video? Freak yes! Bring it on Sony!!! Do I think that the Rumor sites are a good source for when this will/will not happen? Let's put it this way. I'll look forward to Sony's announcements WHENEVER they happen and WHATEVER they announce. (Here's for hoping it's something good whenever it happens.) :)
 
If the specs are correct and the sensor is like the one in the FS100 then this will be the best sub 10k digi-cinema camera period. I don't think it will affect FS100 sales too much. I have a 5D and I've been taking a hard look at the FS100 but I figured there would be a DSLR that would match the FS100 for a lot less money within a few months so I've been saving and waiting. The FS100 is a different breed to a DSLR. It has a video camera look and feel and onboard semi-pro audio with XLRs, some people really want/need that. I have a PCM-D50 and I'm very happy with it using a juicedlink for XLR mic input.

Rumour has it that Nikon may be announcing the D800 on the same day as Sony's announcement and the 5DMKIII rumours are growing. It makes sense that Sony, Nikon, and Canon will all bring new generation DSLRs to market before the end of the year, so we should have a few great choices. Fingers crossed they will all have HDMI output, hopefully some will be 10bit.
 
i doubt it will be the same sensor as the fs100/f3

i do think this will be a great thing :) I do believe that its better to have the mirrorless versions though than the SLT ones.
 
Why would they not put the top of the line hd tuned sensor into the vg20, the camera they are specifically marketing as a video camera. To protect the fs100, of course. But the people that may buy the vg20, present company excepted have never even heard of the fs100, it is not a consumer camera available to play with at the local store. Why not just step up and make it the best that it can be and take the market by the balls. Those in the know that need the difference and things like xlr audio will step up and pay the difference, but it is a different market and volume. That said if they can get most of the cmos artifacts in check and make it work like a video cam should, I'm in. I can handle jacking in a juiced-link.

Assuming video quality is the same and offers full manual control, the nex-5n with 16mm pancake package would make a great b-cam.

Way back in the day I started out using sony 8mm and Hi-8. They had the best consumer cams available at the time, with full controls and nothing left out except for truly pro features like xlr and 3-chip. Then they started to really suck, and each new generation of products left something out to reach a lower more mainstream pricepoint. I really hope they have it right this time. The vg-10 was a good try design wise, but left out key features. I think there is room at the $2k prosumer price point. And I mean high end consumer cams, not low end pro cams, that is where prosumer comes from, it has just been taken over by pro divisions. To me $5k is not prosumer or advanced hobbyist, it is a business investment and must return profit, thereby Pro. $2k is the dividing line that can stay amateur, and make your little movies, that have the potential to be something bigger.
 
dcloud said:
i doubt it will be the same sensor as the fs100/f3

i do think this will be a great thing :) I do believe that its better to have the mirrorless versions though than the SLT ones.
Click to expand...

It may not be the exact same sensor but ability wise is should be on par. Consider that the sensor in the 7D quickly found it's way into every Canon APS-C DSLR. The only way Sony is going to take market share from Nikon and Canon is to put their best sensor technology into their new DSLRs. The Pentax K5 has a 16MP Sony sensor and scored very well on the DXO Mark http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings So we can expect these new 24MP EXMOR sensors to be even better with D3s/FS100 like low noise/low light capability. The D800 should blow the 5D away in high ISO but I have doubts about whether Nikon has started to take the video market seriously enough and improved the codec or added 60p. If the D800 isn't up to scratch the A77 should be a great stopgap until the 5DMKIII is released if it is indeed not going to be released until next year. Canon would be mad though to not put out a new full frame DSLR to compete with the D800.
 
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